Collingwood v Hawthorn

[TallyHawk]

There seems to be a perception of lack of depth below Mitchell, Sewell, Burgoyne and Bateman. When in reality the next tier features the likes of Hodge, Lewis, Riolli, Shiels, Savage, Ellis and Whitecross. Have recently added some tough nuts in Hallahan, Schneider and Woodward.

Shiels flys under the radar and if Riolli and Ellis can get their bodies right, we will be ok. I think people forget that Ellis was out pointing Thomas at the start of his career until injuries struck.

I believe both teams have been slowly grooming their future midfielders, an example of which is Savage and Whitecross from the Hawks and Beams and Sidebottom at the Pies.

 

[Jaeger]

what on a fit ben reid,nathan brown and chris tarrant

gibson,birchall,guerra,stratton,shoenmackers,murphy,suckling,gilham

is not in the same league as ben reid,nathan brown,chris tarrant,heath shaw, ben johnson, marty clarke, alan toovey, harry o'brien, nick maxwell

Also we're getting Gilham back.

Our forwards haven't really had a problem scoring against your defence. Statistically, Buddy plays his best football against Collingwood. And Rioli beats Harry O all the time. Add in Roughead and Gunston and I think we'll be too strong. Maxwell and Ried will have to be accountable now.

We blew a lot of chances in front of goal in the prelim. Those missed opportunities go through and our undermanned forward line beat your backline.

 

[Scodog10]

I went to close to tell. Both teams clearly have their strengths and weaknesses, luck with injury possibly being the defining factor.

I don't think it'll happen, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the next 4 premierships went Collingwood, Hawthorn, Collingwood, Hawthorn because of the talent and age profiles of both lists.

 

[magpieswmb]

Also we're getting Gilham back.

Our forwards haven't really had a problem scoring against your defence. Statistically, Buddy plays his best football against Collingwood. And Rioli beats Harry O all the time. Add in Roughead and Gunston and I think we'll be too strong. Maxwell and Ried will have to be accountable now.

We blew a lot of chances in front of goal in the prelim. Those missed opportunities go through and our undermanned forward line beat your backline.

i said gilham!

buddy dominated the pies a couple of years back when the backline was very different to this years(ben reid and nathan brown were young and tarrant was at freo) this year buddy kicked 4 goals against the pies in 2 matches- below his average

 

[Kurtley Beale]

I went to close to tell. Both teams clearly have their strengths and weaknesses, luck with injury possibly being the defining factor.

I don't think it'll happen, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the next 4 premierships went Collingwood, Hawthorn, Collingwood, Hawthorn because of the talent and age profiles of both lists.

Good Post, And finally a Collingwood supporter with Knowledge..

 

[Fasta_123]

So if I (a Collingwood supporter) says that hawthorn has top end talent and will probably win the next 3 flags it means I have 'knowledge' but if I say that there is going to be a massive class drop in 2-3 years when Mitchell, guerra, Sewell, Bateman, Burgoyne Gibson and co's performances either drop or they retire due to age, that is an unknowledgeable Statement? Your kids have not shown they're capable of filling those shoes by any stretch of the imagination. You are either severely overrating your kids or severely underrating your current stars and vets. Any other 'knowledge' you wanna drop on us?

Perhaps we can discuss how Ellis was out pointing Thomas in 2008 and after 3 injury riddled years and on top of that being the 21-25 in line at hawthorn, let's discuss how he's an obvious replacement, nay, upgrade! For one of your current stars.

Other then that it seems the only thing hawthorn supporters want to discuss is 2008 and the first 3 qtrs of the 2011 prelim.

 

[doppleganger]

Our backline will be stronger in 2012 unless we suffer injuries again.

???

In the PF Hawthorn had the following defenders playing.

Gibson, Guerra, Birchall, Stratton, Schoenmakers, Murphy, Suckling and Burgoyne.

Perhaps you may replace Schoenmakers with Gilham, but that is about it....the Hawks defence was basically full strength.

Yet Cloke was BOG, and Dawes who had been terrible since his injury also bobbed up with 3 in his only decent game in the second half of the season.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

???

In the PF Hawthorn had the following defenders playing.

Gibson, Guerra, Birchall, Stratton, Schoenmakers, Murphy, Suckling and Burgoyne.

Perhaps you may replace Schoenmakers with Gilham, but that is about it....the Hawks defence was basically full strength.

Yet Cloke was BOG, and Dawes who had been terrible since his injury also bobbed up with 3 in his only decent game in the second half of the season.

Stratton had 3 games under his belt after coming back from a dislocated knee.
Schoenmakers missed 7 weeks when he had to deal with a foot injury and only returned to the team in Rnd21.
Boumman, Cheney and Schoenmakers could all have breakout years in 2012....who knows?

And in response to your earlier statement about Hawthorn having Roughead and Gilham in 2010, Collingwood had all their key players in 2009, but didn't play with the same endeavour as 12months later.

I don't have to tell you that belief, drive and intensity go a long way to being a dominant team.

Hawthorn's players, got a hell of a lot of belief from this year when the chips were down and they still kept on rolling towards a top 4 finish.

 

[doppleganger]

Stratton had 3 games under his belt after coming back from a dislocated knee.
Schoenmakers missed 7 weeks when he had to deal with a foot injury and only returned to the team in Rnd21.

They were in the team.

Reid, Toovey, H.Shaw, Maxwell all played but also had interrupted seasons due to injury or suspension.

Hawthorn were much closer to full strength in the PF.

Boumman, Cheney and Schoenmakers could all have breakout years in 2012....who knows?

Yes they could, the Hawks need a couple of guys like that to make big jumps if they want to overtake Geelong and Collingwood.

And in response to your earlier statement about Hawthorn having Roughead and Gilham in 2010, Collingwood had all their key players in 2009, but didn't play with the same endeavour as 12months later.

2009, Pendles injured himself early in the QF and was out for the rest of the finals series.

Pendles, Jolly and L.Ball were 3 more than handy additions to the 2009 finals team.

 

[TheOldXav]

Leigh Matthews summed it up well after the PF.

Hawthorn played to 95% of their capacity, Collingwood were operating on half rat power. It says something about the respective bests of each side.

Apart from the RD 24 game, it was as poor as I've seen Collingwood play in 2011, the fact that we won, despite playing poorly, indicates the current gulf b/w both sides.

 

[Jaeger]

They were in the team.

Reid, Toovey, H.Shaw, Maxwell all played but also had interrupted seasons due to injury or suspension.

They were in the team, too.

I don't think it's fair you include Shaw. Yes he missed a lot of football but none of ours had the luxury of going overseas and coming back in better shape.

Josh Gibson also had a jab to the shoulder pre-game. And you can add Murphy, Guerra and Suckling to our group of defenders who had interrupted seasons due to injury.

Hawthorn were much closer to full strength in the PF.

You're just assuming that. We also had a group of important players who wouldn't have played had it not been a prelim. I'll even argue that Collingwood - coming off a 13 day break - were much closer to full strength than us that night.

Apart from the RD 24 game, it was as poor as I've seen Collingwood play in 2011, the fact that we won, despite playing poorly, indicates the current gulf b/w both sides.

I think it was more a case of us not allowing you to play well for the majority of the contest. We also took more risks.

I heard Maxwell after that game, and he was absolutely rapt with your "never say die" attitude. If you ask me, he accepted you were outplayed and found a way to win. I'll also argue that we lost the game more than you won it.

Besides, I'd rather my club be the one playing at "95%" in a prelim than playing as poorly as we did all year, even though we lost.

But that's all bullshit anyway. I agree we were very close to our best but if Collingwood played as poorly as they did at rare stages in 2011, we would've won by 6 or 7 goals at least.

The fact is, your side gave it everything they had. I'm sorry that when it matters you guys aren't as much better than us as you'd like.

 

[doppleganger]

They were in the team, too.

That is the point.

Hawthorn had a full defense for the PF, Gilham aint any guarantee to push out Gibson, Stratton or Schoenmakers in 2012.

Hawk fans like to perpetuate a myth that you guys were severely undermanned in the finals.

But that's all bullshit anyway. I agree we were very close to our best but if Collingwood played as poorly as they did at rare stages in 2011, we would've won by 6 or 7 goals at least.

???

Collingwood played their worst football of 2011 in the last 4 games.

Woeful against Geelong in rd 24
Average at best against WC in the QF
Poor for 3 quarters against Hawthorn
Brave but not able to go with Geelong in GF

Collingwood were carrying too many players who were not match fit in the last month of football.....sh1t happens.

We had a few champions - Swan, Cloke and Ball - who gave one big effort in the last Q of the PF and it was enough to scrape by a Hawthorn team who were magnificent.

 

[hawkman]

The backline was never the problem in the PF. Collingwood only kicked 10 goals

The forward line was were the problems were. We had plently of opportunities but couldn't capitalise on them. That is why we went and got Gunston to give it a better balance along with Roughead coming back will help out.

It is interesting that Collingwood were on average 8 months older in the PF

 

[TheOldXav]

I don't think it's fair you include Shaw. Yes he missed a lot of football but none of ours had the luxury of going overseas and coming back in better shape.

Shaw was in cracking nick no doubt but physical fitness is a lot different to match fitness. You can't simulate match practise/fitness.

Shaw had played 1 game in 11 weeks, he had no match fitness.

I think it was more a case of us not allowing you to play well for the majority of the contest. We also took more risks.

I only had Pendlebury, Swan, Ball & Cloke as players who played close to their normal output. The rest were below average & I'm not certain that is a reflection of Hawthorn not allowing them to play well or the Collingwood players simply playing a poor game.

As validated by Lethal's comments, Collingwood were playing about 50% to their peak output, Hawthorn in his eyes, couldn't have played any better in the 1st 3 quarters. 1 thing I'm certain that if Collingwood had this dominance that Hawthorn had, we would have been at least 8 goals up at 3 1/4 time.

 

[HeHateMe]

I would say Collingwood myself. Purely based on Mitchell sewell guerra and Bateman all coming into the twilight of their careers. Bateman The least of their problems. With Mitchell and sewell coming to an end in the next 3 years or so would end up leaving the majority of the grunt work on hodge and Lewis. Even Burgoyne is getting on in years. Guerra is so underrated. Just know he's good for 20 effective disposals off half back and good for a goal every 2nd game.

Mitchell and Sewell should be around for at lest 3 more years anyway so them retiring will only be for the twilight of the 5 years. we have also drafted two very good young inside players over the last two years being Hallahan (captain Vic Country) & Woodward (premership captain and B&F winner for Sandringham Dragons) add to that Shiles, Lewis and Rioli getting more midfield time we should cover those two losses.

Bateman on his downhill slop now and i can see him being pushed out by Savage in the near future anyway.
Guerra has a ready made replacement in Suckling and Cheany is pushing for selection.
Burgoyne is used as a utility, Whitecross will be the one to fill his role once he retires.

Hodge, Lewis, Shiles, Rioli, Ellis, Hallahan and Woodward + future draftees is our future midfield.

 

[WWSD]

Our Future Replacement's

IN:
Breust 17 Games
Puopolo 20 Games
Shiels 42 Games
Savage 20 Games
Suckling 29 Games
Smith 16 Games
Schoenmakers 35 Games
Stratton 27 Games
Schneider
Whitecross 50 Games
Rioli 83 Games
Lowden
Gunston 14 Games
Hallahan
Woodward
Grimley
Boumann
Kelly
Langford
Cheney 22 Games
Hill
Wanganeen
Frank, ohh my lord! *drools* lol

OUT: Bruce Bateman Osborne Guerra Burgoyne Mitchell? Maybe in 2014

Have not even peaked:
Franklin 24
Roughead 24
Lewis 25
Young 25
Ellis 23
Birchall 23
Bailey 25

Still Have Good Footy Ahead:
Hale 27
Hodge 27
Gilham 27
Gibson 27
Sewell 27
Murphy 25
McCauley 25

The Old
Bruce 32
Bateman 30
Mitchell 29
Osborne 29
Burgoyne 29
Guerra 29

Our List Is still very good, despite 6 players 29 or over, we blooded Shiels Schoenmakers Breust Smith Puopolo Suckling Savage Whitecross and Stratton. They all played a lot of senior footy in 2011. I expect them to play even more in 2012. So they will develop nicely. If we have an injury free year and we have that luxury of resting players here and there, then we are a chance! But as much as I hate Collingwood, they will win the Premiership. Hard to pick anyone else. We might make the Grand Final. If we can get an injury free Rioli, a fit Bailey, a handy 3rd tall in Gunston, more improvement from Smith Puopolo Stratton Shiels Suckling Savage Schoenmakers, Roughead at FF and Gilham at FB, Then I can dare say it, we are a very good chance!

PS: Franklin will kick 100!

 

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

The most irreplaceable player from either team would have to be Jolly for the Pies.

Yes Mitchell, Sewell, Burgoyne may retire in 3-4 years, but mids are a dime a dozen.

Before Jolly, Collingwood didn't have an adequate ruckman for ages.

And to say Wood will be able to replace Jolly to the level required takes a greater leap of faith than saying Cyril/Shiels/Savage/Smith will be able to replace our aging midfielders.

 

[WWSD]

They were in the team.

Reid, Toovey, H.Shaw, Maxwell all played but also had interrupted seasons due to injury or suspension.

Hawthorn were much closer to full strength in the PF.


Yes they could, the Hawks need a couple of guys like that to make big jumps if they want to overtake Geelong and Collingwood.


2009, Pendles injured himself early in the QF and was out for the rest of the finals series.

Pendles, Jolly and L.Ball were 3 more than handy additions to the 2009 finals team.

lol!

Roughead Gilham Breust Savage Ellis and Young all say hi! As appose to Collingwood Brown and MaCaffer only, That's it! So get your facts right!

 

[DTRAIN87]

Weren't those players with the exception of Gilham and Roughedad either dropped or nomitted because they weren't considered in the best 22 by the coaching staff?

 

[doppleganger]

The most irreplaceable player from either team would have to be Jolly for the Pies.

Yes Mitchell, Sewell, Burgoyne may retire in 3-4 years, but mids are a dime a dozen.

Before Jolly, Collingwood didn't have an adequate ruckman for ages.

And to say Wood will be able to replace Jolly to the level required takes a greater leap of faith than saying Cyril/Shiels/Savage/Smith will be able to replace our aging midfielders.

Jolly missed a big chunk of 2011, and played a number of games when he was clearly below par.

Collingwood with Wood as the number 1 ruck (ie no Jolly) only lost one game, rd 8 against Geelong. We got closer to Geelong with Wood than we did with Jolly.

The numbers for 2011 were pretty similar to

Wood 12 disposals, 3 marks, 22 HOs per game in 12 games
Jolly 11 disposals, 3 marks, 23 HOs per game in 16 games

Jolly was a bit part player in 2011....Collingwood should hope to get more out of both him and Wood in 2012......pretty hard to see S.Mitchell improving his output in 2012.

It is pretty clear that L.Franklin is the player that would be the most irreplaceable.

 

[WWSD]

Jolly missed a big chunk of 2011, and played a number of games when he was clearly below par.

Collingwood with Wood as the number 1 ruck (ie no Jolly) only lost one game, rd 8 against Geelong. We got closer to Geelong with Wood than we did with Jolly.

The numbers for 2011 were pretty similar to

Wood 12 disposals, 3 marks, 22 HOs per game in 12 games
Jolly 11 disposals, 3 marks, 23 HOs per game in 16 games

Jolly was a bit part player in 2011....Collingwood should hope to get more out of both him and Wood in 2012......pretty hard to see S.Mitchell improving his output in 2012.

It is pretty clear that L.Franklin is the player that would be the most irreplaceable.

Wrong! Did you not watch Hawthorn vs Essendon? We kicked 24 Goals that night without Franklin and Roughead! Plus we are 6W and 1L when Franklin hasn't played. Mitchell is irreplaceable IMO

 

[HurleyTheFuture]

Wrong! Did you not watch Hawthorn vs Essendon? We kicked 24 Goals that night without Franklin and Roughead! Plus we are 6W and 1L when Franklin hasn't played. Mitchell is irreplaceable IMO

Are you talking about the essendon that placed 8th, were coming off a bad losing streak as well as having 2 of their midfielders gone in the 1st half, No offence to Sam but nearly every draft over the past decade has produced a player that has matched him or gone further. But none of them have produced a player anything like Buddy, Im not saying Hawthorn is bad without him Im saying he is by far the most irreplaceable

 

[doppleganger]

Wrong! Did you not watch Hawthorn vs Essendon? We kicked 24 Goals that night without Franklin and Roughead! Plus we are 6W and 1L when Franklin hasn't played. Mitchell is irreplaceable IMO

6W and 1L.....since when??

Buddy played every game in 2008.

Since then My count is 6 wins, 3 losses......with only 1 win of note, and a couple of losses that wouldn't have occurred with Buddy.

 

[Furn]

Any success these teams have would be in the next 2-3 years. So replacing Mitchell isn't an issue really. He's not exactly an athlete so losing a bit of pace isnt going ot effect his game much.

Next year you wouldnt think they'd be much between them, like we saw in the prelim.

Even looking past next year its impossible to tell, Guys like Shiels and Smith had similar years to Pendlebury and Thomas at the same age, they could be anything. Or they could be no good.

Players dont improve and decline linearly with age. Being a B+ at 22 doesnt mean you'll be A+ at 26. Some guys play better at 32 than 26.

In 5 years GC and GWS could be winning flags.

 

[doppleganger]

Even looking past next year its impossible to tell, Guys like Shiels and Smith had similar years to Pendlebury and Thomas at the same age, they could be anything. Or they could be no good.

Shiels is a jet.

Smith was born in the same year as Pendles, so not sure where your going with that.

Smith and Pops were mature recruits, they were always going to make the transition more quicker......guys like Breust, Savage and even Whitecross will all be much better long term players for the Hawks IMO.