Collingwood v Hawthorn

[JonoNash]

So, in your opinion, you would only take Mitchel over Collingwood's first 7 midfielders?

Mitchell right now would be our 3rd best midfielder. Moving forward, most neutrals would also favor the 24 year AA over the 29 year old, given he is entering his peak years (as opposed to Mitchell, who will retire in the next 2 years) and he is far more versatile with the ability to be a forward of note.

I'm sure Hawthorn's list management team would also favor Thomas moving forward.

 

[Bardo State]

Mitchell right now would be our 3rd best midfielder. Moving forward, most neutrals would also favor the 24 year AA over the 29 year old, given he is entering his peak years (as opposed to Mitchell, who will retire in the next 2 years) and he is far more versatile with the ability to be a forward of note.

I'm sure Hawthorn's list management team would also favor Thomas moving forward.

That wasn't my question.

Would you take any of Hawthorn's midfielders, besides Mitchel, ahead of any of Collingwood's 7 best mids?

 

[HeHateMe]

A+
Buddy
Hodge
Mitchell

A-
Burgoyne
Sewell

B
Rioli
Gibson
Roughhead
Lewis
Birchall

Not sure what Richmond has to do with a comparison between Hawthorn & Collingwood

I used richmond as an example to prove a point that there is no massive drop of from our top 5...

Also if Rioli, Gibson, Roughead, Lewis and Birchall are all B grade footballers then geez we have a very average first grade spot going on over here don't we :3

Again to use Richmond as an example, they would have no more the 6 players B grade or higher on there list using your ranking system.

And collingwood would have no more then 12. That's ridiculous, try again.

 

[HeHateMe]

In 2011 and 2010 the only Hawk who has had more of the ball than Dale is S.Mitchell.

Midfield rankings

1. Swan
2. Pendlebury
3. Mitchell
4. L.Ball
5. D.Thomas
6. L.Hodge
7. J.Lewis
8. L.Shiels
9. B.Sewell
10. D.Beams
11. S.Wellingham
12. I.Smith

come on in 2010 the only collingwood player better then Hodge was
Swan...

 

[doppleganger]

come on in 2010 the only collingwood player better then Hodge was
Swan...

That is why the comparison is over the two years.

In 2010 A.Didak had a better SC avg than S.Mitchell, was Collingwood's leading goalkicker, whilst averaging 25 disposals per game, and he came 4th in the Collingwood BnF.

If doing rankings based on 2010 alone

Swan
Hodge
Pendles
Thomas
Didak
Ball
Mitchell
Beams

Would be the order.

Hodge had an average 2011, Didak had a year to forget....whilst Pendles, Thomas and Ball all backed up with great seasons.

 

[Jade's]

I used richmond as an example to prove a point that there is no massive drop of from our top 5...

Also if Rioli, Gibson, Roughead, Lewis and Birchall are all B grade footballers then geez we have a very average first grade spot going on over here don't we :3

Again to use Richmond as an example, they would have no more the 6 players B grade or higher on there list using your ranking system.

And collingwood would have no more then 12. That's ridiculous, try again.

You dont agree that Rioli, Gibson, Roughhead, Lewis and Birchall would be anything other than good ordinary footballers if it wasnt for Buddy, Mitchell and Hodge and a coach with solid game plans?

 

[Furn]

You would safely assume Thomas will overtake the 29 year old Mitchell in the next 12 months as he enters his peak years.

Sidebottom right now is a far better midfielder than Shiels. Not even Rioli has played as well as Sidebottom in September.

This is just getting silly now.

It's pretty clear hawthorn caught and overtook collingwood during the course of 2011 two teams going in different directions hawks up pies down

 

[Jade's]

This is just getting silly now.

It's pretty clear hawthorn caught and overtook collingwood during the course of 2011 two teams going in different directions hawks up pies down

Exactly when did you overtake them? Last game i saw they were ordinary for 3/4's yet still won when the Hawks were arguably playing the best game they had all season

 

[Furn]

Exactly when did you overtake them? Last game i saw they were ordinary for 3/4's yet still won when the Hawks were arguably playing the best game they had all season

Best game for the year and yet where awful at the most important skill in the game, kicking for goal? Hawks were just ok that night. Maybe heaps of mistakes. If they had kicked straight i would have put it up there, maybe.

The Pies were ordinary most of the late part of the season. Last 4 games ,2 close wins and 2 smashings with a net score of -110 points. Not a team on improve.

 

[Pie in the Sky]

Best game for the year and yet where awful at the most important skill in the game, kicking for goal? Hawks were just ok that night. Maybe heaps of mistakes. If they had kicked straight i would have put it up there, maybe.

The Pies were ordinary most of the late part of the season. Last 4 games ,2 close wins and 2 smashings with a net score of -110 points. Not a team on improve.

Yes we lost form over the last 6-8 weeks of the season for a number of reasons, and we were well blow our best in the preliminary final, yet we still managed to beat Hawthorn. I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that Hawthorn have overtaken us from that?

 

[Buddysurkidsdad]

Sidebottom right now is a far better midfielder than Shiels. Not even Rioli has played as well as Sidebottom in September.

There has been a whole lot of dick measuring in this thread, from both sides. I've tried to remain unbiased while reading, but the above statement RE Shiels is absolute crap imo. I'm surprised it hasn't been picked up before now and would love to know some other perspectives, more so from other teams supporters.

 

[JonoNash]

There has been a whole lot of dick measuring in this thread, from both sides. I've tried to remain unbiased while reading, but the above statement RE Shiels is absolute crap imo.

Why is it crap?

Did you watch the GF, Sidebottom 24 disposals, 2 goals.

In GF2 2010, Sidebottom led every player on the ground as far as clearances, another 24 disposal haul, Norm Smith votes. In the 1st GF, he was 3rd in total clearances on the ground. 27 disposals on Bernie Vince in his first final, who at that time was one of the form midfielders of the competition.

Shiels simply hasn't reached this level on the stage that define players.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

That is why the comparison is over the two years.

In 2010 A.Didak had a better SC avg than S.Mitchell, was Collingwood's leading goalkicker, whilst averaging 25 disposals per game, and he came 4th in the Collingwood BnF.

If doing rankings based on 2010 alone

Swan
Hodge
Pendles
Thomas
Didak
Ball
Mitchell
Beams

Would be the order.

Hodge had an average 2011, Didak had a year to forget....whilst Pendles, Thomas and Ball all backed up with great seasons.

Luke Hodge polled 17 Bronwlow votes, was ranked top 40 by Sheehan and was our best player in the finals in 2011. I know he didn't finish 2nd in the MVP like in 2010, but he was still very, very good, particuarly in the back half of the year. If you think Luke Ball is better than a 3 x All Australian, All Australian captain, dual best & fairest, and Norm Smith medal winner, then you have something very, very, very wrong with you.

 

[McOrist]

Luke Hodge polled 17 Bronwlow votes, was ranked top 40 by Sheehan and was our best player in the finals in 2011. I know he didn't finish 2nd in the MVP like in 2010, but he was still very, very good, particuarly in the back half of the year. If you think Luke Ball is better than a 3 x All Australian, All Australian captain, dual best & fairest, and Norm Smith medal winner, then you have something very, very, very wrong with you.

The club awarded Josh Gibson best finals player in 2011.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

The club awarded Josh Gibson best finals player in 2011.

Hodge was better imo. Best on ground from Hawthorn in a couple of those matches in the HUN, Age etc. But you obviously don't disagree with the point I made though?

Luke Ball hasn't even got one individual achivement since 2005. No B&Fs, no AAs, no nothing. In 6 years. He was nothing but a solid B grader until 2011, when he moved up to B+. Hodge has multiple accolades and has been elite a number of those years ( top 5 in the comp in 2 of them ). Even his "bad years" like in 2011, he still racks up 17 Brownlow votes and has multiple BOGs.

It's like me saying Shaun Burgoyne is better than Dane Swan. It's just not true. Swan is miles ahead of Burgoyne as is Hodge ahead of Ball.

 

[Baz_hawk]

Hodge had a known Achilles issue that obviously hindered the early part of his year. Having had a minor Achilles injury (might not be the same kind as Hodge but whatever) I can say that it takes a lot of time to fully recover.

As for the poll, it's hard to tell who will be more successful in the next 5 years. Both teams will lose players and gain some and I think the 2012 season will give a better indication of where both teams are at. How will Collingwood bounce back after a poor second half of 2011 and a GF loss? How will the hawks bounce back from a crushing loss in a game that, really they should have won?

Not worth comparing player stats or Supercoach scores (lol), both teams play different game styles, use different structures and so on. On paper, based on 2011 you'd say that Collingwood has the better defense, with the midfield relatively even and the Hawks marginally ahead (before losing Roughead).

 

[doppleganger]

Luke Hodge polled 17 Bronwlow votes

Good on him.

In 2010 L.Hodge polled 16 brownlow votes, I guess that means he was better in 2011??

was ranked top 40 by Sheehan

L.Ball was rated @ 22 by M.Sheahan in 2011.....L.Hodge @ 39.
Thomas was @ 15 by the way!

and was our best player in the finals in 2011.

Not according to the coaching staff!

But hey what would they know.

I know he didn't finish 2nd in the MVP like in 2010, but he was still very, very good, particuarly in the back half of the year. If you think Luke Ball is better than a 3 x All Australian, All Australian captain, dual best & fairest, and Norm Smith medal winner, then you have something very, very, very wrong with you.

L.Ball had a better 2011 than L.Hodge.

 

[doppleganger]

Luke Ball hasn't even got one individual achivement since 2005. No B&Fs, no AAs, no nothing.

He has finished 4th and 5th in the pies BnF in his two years at the club.

It is pretty hard to claim personal accolades when you have Swan and Pendles in your team.

It's like me saying Shaun Burgoyne is better than Dane Swan. It's just not true. Swan is miles ahead of Burgoyne as is Hodge ahead of Ball.

It's not.

Your man crush on Hodge is clouding your judgement.

L.Ball had a better 2011 than Hodge.

Your mate M.Sheahan acknowledges this fact.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

L.Ball had a better 2011 than L.Hodge.

If he did, it wasn't by much. Balls best year = Hodges 4th best year. Previous years, Hodge was a far better player in nearly every single one. Considering Hodge had an interrupted pre-season and had a serious injury problem, and yet there wasn't much between them, shows the class gap between Ball & Hodge as players.

Anyway, back to the OP, you can't tell 5 years into the future. Who in 2006, thought Geelong would have a 5 year period of dominance. Collingwood people will say Collingwood and Hawthorn people will say Hawthorn. Exercise in futility imo.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

He has finished 4th and 5th in the pies BnF in his two years at the club.

It is pretty hard to claim personal accolades when you have Swan and Pendles in your team.


It's not.

Your man crush on Hodge is clouding your judgement.

L.Ball had a better 2011 than Hodge.

Your mate M.Sheahan acknowledges this fact.

And Franklin and Mitchell have taken B&Fs off Hodge, yet he still manages to win them. As well as All Australian selections and Norm Smith medals.

Yes it's exactly like that.

Hodge and Swan have very similair career achievements, as do Burgoyne & Ball. Both Hodge & Swan are 3 x AA and multiple B&F winners. Swan has a Brownlow and MVP, whilst Hodge has a Norm Smith. Burgoyne and Ball have one All Australian each and they were a long, long time ago. You saying Ball is better than Hodge is exactly the same as me saying Burgoyne>Swan. Fair enough Ball may have been slightly better in one year over his career than Hodge, but Hodge is a far superior player over the journey.

 

[HurleyTheFuture]

Ill give an outside opinion and say
Swan
Pendles
Mitchell
Hodge
Ball
Thomas
Lewis
Shiels/Sidebottom

 

[WWSD]

Ill give an outside opinion and say
Swan
Pendles
Mitchell
Hodge
Ball
Thomas
Lewis
Shiels/Sidebottom

Sewell is better then Sidebottom

 

[HurleyTheFuture]

Sewell is better then Sidebottom

Forgot about him

 

[TheOldXav]

Thomas was better than Hodge in 2011 too.

Beams was voted with Hannebery as the player of the 08' draft by the CA, came 7th in the B&F in a premiership year. He is a superior player to Shiels at this stage.

 

[doppleganger]

If he did, it wasn't by much. Balls best year = Hodges 4th best year. Previous years, Hodge was a far better player in nearly every single one. Considering Hodge had an interrupted pre-season and had a serious injury problem, and yet there wasn't much between them, shows the class gap between Ball & Hodge as players.

How many times does it have to be explained.

The ranking were based on combined performance from 2010 & 2011.

Hodge had a great 2010, and a bit of a let down due to injury in 2011.
Ball had two good seasons.

As stated, Didak was an absolute jet for Collingwood in 2010, but his terrible 2011 meant he wasn't in the top 6 Pies midfielders. If basing it on talent and past performance etc of course he is in.

You love Hodge, clearly by listing all of these supposed accolades like M.Sheahan ratings and 'best finals' player

I aint saying Ball is the better player, I simply reckon his last two years have been outstanding, as have Thomas'.