Collingwood v Hawthorn

[vWestCoast]

Out of Collingwood and Hawthorn which team will be more successful in the next 5 years ?

Hawthorn still have Franklin but Collingwood have Cloke. Hawthorn added a few quality youngsters this year such as Shiels, Smith, Savage, Bruest ect

Collingwood meanwhile got a good young play in Fasolo and with their recruiting staff will pick up a B grader in every draft.

Both teams have struggling ruck departments but have decent ruckman filling the hole until the right ruck is found. Wood is underrated, nothing special but is very promising.

Think the Hawks will win the flag next year and might get another one in the next 5 years. Collingwood IMO will only win 1 more in the same period.



PS. Chose Hawthorn and Collingwood because to me they are the two most exciting lists in the comp. Could of easily included Carlton, West Coast, Geelong ect.

 

[Fasta_123]

Wood Deffs isn't underrated. He's Putting on size but still looks like he's running around with 30kg sandbags under each arm. I hope this year he prooved me wrong. I've been saying that however for 3 years now. Just doesn't look like he really wants to e there. Got a soft spot for him as I do most rucks, so hopefully this year he comes good.

I would say Collingwood myself. Purely based on Mitchell sewell guerra and Bateman all coming into the twilight of their careers. Bateman The least of their problems. With Mitchell and sewell coming to an end in the next 3 years or so would end up leaving the majority of the grunt work on hodge and Lewis. Even Burgoyne is getting on in years. Guerra is so underrated. Just know he's good for 20 effective disposals off half back and good for a goal every 2nd game.

If hawthorn can grab one in the next year or two They've done well. If not though, I don't think their young up and comers will be able to fill the shoes of Bateman, osbourne, Mitchell, sewell, guerra, Gibson and Burgoyne who like I said have about 3-4 years left.

Collingwood on the other hand have Johnson who should be a straight swap for Marty Clarke by years end, didak who won't be getting a game next year for the pies if he dishs up the same crap he did this year, we got witts, who if he lives up to a quarter on the hype will be an easy replacement for jolly, Tarrant we got brown snapping at his heels, krakouer will be replaced by a fasolo if need be and swan when it does come his time will have beams, sidebottom, wellingham all chasing a full time mid spot.

Just don't see hawthorn with that kind of back up. I may be wrong but it just seems there will be a massive class drop in the players that come in to replace the former champions.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Just don't see hawthorn with that kind of back up. I may be wrong but it just seems there will be a massive class drop in the players that come in to replace the former champions.

Lol. It's amazing how many people still live in 2010.

 

[Fasta_123]

2011 showed you had kids capable of filling Mitchell Burgoyne Sewell guerra and Gibson's shoes in 3-4 years? Please. You had a few good kids show a bit. But nothing spectacular. Also a mature age rookie who showed gave it his all. But either you are severely underrating hawthorns veterans or you're severely overrating your kids if you think 2011 showed they will be in the same class as a Mitchell, Sewell, Burgoyne, guerra etc

Wasn't Mitchell very very average in 2010?

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

2011 showed you had kids capable of filling Mitchell Burgoyne Sewell guerra and Gibson's shoes in 3-4 years? Please. You had a few good kids show a bit. But nothing spectacular. Also a mature age rookie who showed gave it his all. But either you are severely underrating hawthorns veterans or you're severely overrating your kids if you think 2011 showed they will be in the same class as a Mitchell, Sewell, Burgoyne, guerra etc

Wasn't Mitchell very very average in 2010?

And Collingwood do do they? The end of last season proved that Collingwood are an average side when their gameplan isn't working.

And re: Mitchell 2010

Disposals -27.6 per game
Cont Poss - 10.7 per game
Clearances - 5.5 per game
Tackles - 4.7 per game
Dreamteam - 100.6 per game

Lol no idea again. If that's your definition of very, very average, then most of the Collingwood side are complete plebs in comparision.

 

[Prudster]

Shiels and Whitecross will do fairly well to fill the holes left by Mitchell and Sewell. The we have anther young inside mid called Schneider who has shown a lot, just is a little small for AFL currently. Puopolo could replace Guerra, while Smith and Savage could replace Burgoyne's midfield work at least. When you say more grunt work will be done by Lewis, that is a great thing. He still gets pushed onto a wing, or up forward, when he is obviously an inside mid. Osborne has a replacement ready in Breust, or even Gunston. Shoey and Stratton aren't bad down back either, especially if Shoey has his breakout year this year (this year he is the same age Reid was when he had his breakout year)

Shiels, Whitecross, Smith, Savage, Breust, Gunston, Puopolo, Bailey, hell even Buddy and Cyril have a lot of scope for improvement. Roughy and Gilham to add to last years team also.

Not saying Hawks will be better than Collingwood, but to say we don't have anyone coming through is just ignorant. We came within 3 points of you in a PF, with several players playing in their first finals series.

 

[hawkman]

Hodge, Lewis and Shiels will be all good inside midfielders for the next 5 years.

Savage will be Bateman's replacement next year.

Suckling will take over the Guerra role.

Also the next couple drafts will have an impact on who has the better 5 years

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

And Collingwood do do they?

Well, our star midfielders are a fair bit younger than Hawthorn's, on average, so the concern of how we're going replace them over the next five years isn't as pressing.

 

[doppleganger]

Hawthorn have only won 1 final in the last 3 years.

Why will they suddenly get that much better??

 

[tazhawk]

Hawthorn have only won 1 final in the last 3 years.

Why will they suddenly get that much better??

Might have something to do with getting their FB and FF back.

Roughead back at FF and with Gunston a 3rd tall down there and suddenly the pressure on Buddy eases.

 

[Monkey King]

It pains me to say it, but I think Collingwood are going to be more successful. A good spread of youth and depth in most positions. Good key forwards and defenders, including a couple of All Australians, who should play into their prime over those 5 years; a couple of young star midfielders and good smaller goal kickers. A good young ruckman seems to be their only real weakness and it's not like Hawthorn are outdoing them in that department.

 

[Fasta_123]

Lol no idea again. If that's your definition of very, very average, then most of the Collingwood side are complete plebs in comparision.

What was the reason Mitchell was relieved of his captaincy duties last year?
Stats aren't the whole picture. You should know that. Mitchell wasn't in the top 80 players last year. If this was 2010, the Mitchell loss wouldn't seem as big as it does this year after arguably his best season. So no... I am with you in the disappointing year of 2011

 

[doppleganger]

Might have something to do with getting their FB and FF back.

Roughead back at FF and with Gunston a 3rd tall down there and suddenly the pressure on Buddy eases.

Gilham and Rough were both playing in 2010.

Hawks were miles off the pace with them in the team then.

 

[TheOldXav]

Hawthorn's B&F winner and best midfielder turns 30 in 2012. Their next best midfielder is 28.

Burgoyne is 29.

Conversely, Pendlebury is 23, Thomas 24, Swan 27 and Ball 26.
Below that Sidebottom 20, Wellingham 23, Beams 21 and Shaw 25 are yet to enter their peak years in the midfield

Hawthorn will have to replace their midfield in the next 2 years, Collingwood do not face this issue

 

[Guardian Hawk]

What was the reason Mitchell was relieved of his captaincy duties last year?
Stats aren't the whole picture. You should know that. Mitchell wasn't in the top 80 players last year. If this was 2010, the Mitchell loss wouldn't seem as big as it does this year after arguably his best season. So no... I am with you in the disappointing year of 2011

When Mitchell was inducted as captain and Hodge as vice, it was basically considered a 50/50 decision with the club stating that Hodge would get his turn sooner rather than later. The hawthorn players vote on the captaincy every year and stated from the beginning that both Mitchell and Hodge would get a go - nothing to do with Mitchell being average.

Now, despite Mitchell playing injured in 2010 (and thus his least impressive season)- he was far, far from average. Whilst you're correct in saying stats don't tell the whole story - they are very much indicative of a player's performance and to completely dismiss them as you have is a cop out. They don't tell the whole story in arguments where people are comparing 1-2 possesions per game in difference BUT 28 disposals, 6 clearances and 5 tackles a game is so far ahead of 'very, very average' it is not funny. To put it into some perspective, only Swan at the Pies managed more of the ball in their premiership year (and he broke the record). To further emphasise my point, Mitchell also received 15 Brownlow votes and was unlucky a couple of times. That is more than any Pie except Swan and Pendlebury and ahead of names like Goddard. To suggest he was not in the top 80 is utterly ridiculous and shows you saw little of him.

Edit: He also finished 3rd in the Hawthorn B&F (playing only 19 of 23 games) behind Luke Hodge (AA captain) and Lance Franklin (AA CHF)

 

[Squida25]

Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell & Lewis will be hard to replace so have to go with Collingwood.

 

[Elite Master]

I think Hawthorn have more talent going forward but lack the list depth and longevity of Collingwood which long term will set them in good stead (which is what this poll is about.)

I've bitten the bullet and gone Hawthorn because their top end talent is too strong to ignore and whist a portion of it is aging (Mitchell, Lewis, Osborne, Burgoyne, Hodge, Sewell, Guerra) its still good enough to be around for quite a few years yet, plus they got some talented youngsters coming through as well (Smith, Stratton, Puopolo, Shiels etc)

 

[HurleyTheFuture]

Hodge, Lewis and Shiels will be all good inside midfielders for the next 5 years.

Savage will be Bateman's replacement next year.

Suckling will take over the Guerra role.

Also the next couple drafts will have an impact on who has the better 5 years

I dont think Batemen is best 22 anymore

 

[hawkman]

Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell & Lewis will be hard to replace so have to go with Collingwood.

Hodge is 27
Lewis is 25

They should be around for another 5 years

 

[Hodgepodge]

Hawthorn's B&F winner and best midfielder turns 30 in 2012.
Conversely, Pendlebury is 23, Thomas 24, Swan 27 and Ball 26.

Umm, you're comparing next year's age for Mitchell with this year's ages for the Collingwood players.

Hawthorn will have to replace their midfield in the next 2 years, Collingwood do not face this issue

Apart from Mitchell, no. And even he might easily be around at the age of 32.

Burgoyne's not a midfielder, he played half back and is easily replaced.

Bateman's already pretty much gone, same with Cameron Bruce lol. I think you'll see Shane Savage step into Bateman's shoes.

Hodge has a few years left hopefully, and he's one of the irreplaceable ones, but he's no older than Swan.

 

[magpieswmb]

dont know why people think hawthorn will win the flag next year, can you imagine what cloke and dawes or podsiadly and hawkins would do to gibson and stratton on grand final day

 

[Jaeger]

dont know why people think hawthorn will win the flag next year, can you imagine what cloke and dawes or podsiadly and hawkins would do to gibson and stratton on grand final day

Our backline will be stronger in 2012 unless we suffer injuries again.

Imagine what Buddy & Rough would do to Collingwood on GF day!!

 

[DTShowtime]

Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell & Lewis will be hard to replace so have to go with Collingwood.

The will have to replace Mitchell, who turns 30 next year, their best midfielder & B&F winner in the next few seasons. Burgoyne is 29 & Bateman (30) have to be replaced in their midfield also in the next few years.

To win a premiership, Hawthorn will have to win more than 1 final in a season. They have done this once in the last 10 years, with 1 win out of their last 4 finals games, they simply are an avg. finals side now.

 

[magpieswmb]

Our backline will be stronger in 2012 unless we suffer injuries again.

Imagine what Buddy & Rough would do to Collingwood on GF day!!

what on a fit ben reid,nathan brown and chris tarrant

gibson,birchall,guerra,stratton,shoenmackers,murphy,suckling,gilham

is not in the same league as ben reid,nathan brown,chris tarrant,heath shaw, ben johnson, marty clarke, alan toovey, harry o'brien, nick maxwell

 

[blitzer]

I said too close to tell. I reckon both teams will probably be a big chance to win 1 more premiership each with their current crop. In a couple of years they will probably both be overtaken from underneath as their older players begin to move on.