News Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread II

[Flawed Genius]

1 - 0

******* fantastic

 

[ferball]

6.1 cases per day with 10 from "mystery sources".

Cheers.

What does 10 from mystery sources mean in terms of the presence of the virus in the community?

6.1 + 10 unknown cases as opposed to 5 + % - was % spose to be a number per day instead of the percentage sign?

Bear with me cos I'll explain what I'm talking about.

 

[ferball]

I am pro-caution on coming out of lockdown, but just have a quick comment on the “it’s only another week/fortnight” thought. When every day is a struggle, every day matters. Whether that’s trying to help a kid through school challenges as an untrained teacher working a full time job, or trying to keep a business from going under, or trying to pay household bills with income slashed, or trying to manage isolation after test results or waiting for test results, every single extra day can be crushingly difficult. I’ve faced a few of those since March and while my broad support for the measures hasn’t faltered, it’s made me very conscious of not being glib about the costs, and the weight of even a small amount of extra time under those pressures.

Hang in, Melbourne people. This has been so hard and you are amazing.

I didn't say "it's just another day/week/month" ... I said it's the least worst option. Those two things are miles apart.

 

[ferball]

And given that ... People obviously need more support dealing with that situation.

 

[ferball]

You don't know that. Plenty of heads rolled from the banking RC.

Regardless of the details the overwhelming community perception I'm aware of is that these are cultural issues that will raise their heads again as soon as the opportunity presents itself regardless of what happened to specific individuals last time.

And how many people went to prison or were convicted of something?

 

[7577969923]

Regardless of the details the overwhelming community perception I'm aware of is that these are cultural issues that will raise their heads again as soon as the opportunity presents itself regardless of what happened to specific individuals last time.

And how many people went to prison or were convicted of something?

I don't want to be the one in here defending big business because I absolutely don't believe them to be without fault. I just made an observation that on the whole there is more accountability in big business than a lot of politics and vastly more than has been shown by the Victorian state government, which is zero. This shouldn't descend into a rolling series of "whataboutisms" where somehow the argument is pushed that the state government whose incompetence led to the biggest public health and economic crisis we have ever faced should be allowed to avoid accountability because some dodgy CEO also did. We should push for accountability from all leaders always.

 

[ferball]

I don't want to be the one in here defending big business because I absolutely don't believe them to be without fault. I just made an observation that on the whole there is more accountability in big business than a lot of politics and vastly more than has been shown by the Victorian state government, which is zero. This shouldn't descend into a rolling series of "whataboutisms" where somehow the argument is pushed that the state government whose incompetence led to the biggest public health and economic crisis we have ever faced should be allowed to avoid accountability because some dodgy CEO also did. We should push for accountability from all leaders always.

I agree, but I don't think the timeframe you are expecting for full accountability with this situation is not reasonable. Heads have already rolled haven't they? Specifically the minister directly responsible for the department whose failures are the root cause of this situation.

In comparison, after Black Saturday, an event where the worst of what happened took a few hours, full accountability from everyone who could be found to responsible (arsonists, power companies etc) took years. Over 5 years for SP Ausnet to finalise all settlements and payouts for example.

This event is still going.

Furthermore in this situation it seems the security company failed to adequately train its employees, alongside the failures of the DHHS.

How should that failure be weighted in terms of accountability and in comparison with the government? After all the minister responsible has resigned in disgrace.

 

[Themanbun]

I agree, but I don't think the timeframe you are expecting for full accountability with this situation is reasonable. Heads have already rolled haven't they? Specifically the minister directly responsible for the department whose failures are the root cause of this situation.

In comparison, after Black Saturday, an event where the worst of what happened took a few hours, full accountability from everyone who could be found to responsible (arsonists, power companies etc) took years. Over 5 years for SP Ausnet to finalise all settlements and payouts for example.

This event is still going.

Furthermore in this situation it seems the security company failed to adequately train its employees, alongside the failures of the DHHS.

How should that failure be weighted in terms of accountability and in comparison with the government? After all the minister responsible has resigned in disgrace.

People killed themselves after being robodebted and we're yet to see accountability for that, too, despite a royal commission.

 

[ferball]

People killed themselves after being robodebted and we're yet to see accountability for that, too, despite a royal commission.

That actually supports 7577969923's assertion that we need more government accountability. I can get on board with that as a general principle.

The NSW gov has handled this crisis well but I wish I had a a block next to airport to sell at ten times its value.

 

[Forever North]

The ’accountability’ bar whether in government or big business has been lowered so much nowdays that the lack of it has just become part of life. Corruption, scandals, looking after mates, hidden agendas, dodgy deals, lies is standard behaviour. Ethics are out the window. They are in each others pockets. It’s virtually built into government and big business plans. They have massive media teams and PR damage control firms on call to mop up the mess and create diversions when exposed.
But here we have a public health emergency that is affecting every single one of us one way or another. There was simply no room for error or the bullshit cover ups given lives and livelihoods that were and are at stake. The hotel quarantine debacle and woeful contact tracing system are government failures that were simply avoidable and are unforgivable. The damage just massive. It’s wasn’t your stock standard Aussie Post Cartier watches scandal or Crown Casino hiding cash cover ups. Andrews and his incompetent government chose to do things ‘his way’ and now we’re all paying the price.

 

[Forever North]

The ’accountability’ bar whether in government or big business has been lowered so much nowdays that the lack of it has just become part of life. Corruption, scandals, looking after mates, hidden agendas, dodgy deals, lies is standard behaviour. Ethics are out the window. They are in each others pockets. It’s virtually built into government and big business plans. They have massive media teams and PR damage control firms on call to mop up the mess and create diversions when exposed.
But here we have a public health emergency that is affecting every single one of us one way or another. There was simply no room for error or the bullshit cover ups given lives and livelihoods that were and are at stake. The hotel quarantine debacle and woeful contact tracing system are government failures that were simply avoidable and are unforgivable. The damage just massive. It’s wasn’t your stock standard Aussie Post Cartier watches scandal or Crown Casino hiding cash cover ups. Andrews and his incompetent government chose to do things ‘his way’ and now we’re all paying the price.

 

[7577969923]

The ’accountability’ bar whether in government or big business has been lowered so much nowdays that the lack of it has just become part of life. Corruption, scandals, looking after mates, hidden agendas, dodgy deals, lies is standard behaviour. Ethics are out the window. They are in each others pockets. It’s virtually built into government and big business plans. They have massive media teams and PR damage control firms on call to mop up the mess and create diversions when exposed.
But here we have a public health emergency that is affecting every single one of us one way or another. There was simply no room for error or the bullshit cover ups given lives and livelihoods that were and are at stake. The hotel quarantine debacle and woeful contact tracing system are government failures that were simply avoidable and are unforgivable. The damage just massive. It’s wasn’t your stock standard Aussie Post Cartier watches scandal or Crown Casino hiding cash cover ups. Andrews and his incompetent government chose to do things ‘his way’ and now we’re all paying the price.

Very good points. Worth saying twice!

 

[7577969923]

I agree, but I don't think the timeframe you are expecting for full accountability with this situation is not reasonable. Heads have already rolled haven't they? Specifically the minister directly responsible for the department whose failures are the root cause of this situation.

In comparison, after Black Saturday, an event where the worst of what happened took a few hours, full accountability from everyone who could be found to responsible (arsonists, power companies etc) took years. Over 5 years for SP Ausnet to finalise all settlements and payouts for example.

This event is still going.

Furthermore in this situation it seems the security company failed to adequately train its employees, alongside the failures of the DHHS.

How should that failure be weighted in terms of accountability and in comparison with the government? After all the minister responsible has resigned in disgrace.

Two heads have rolled and neither of them has taken any accountability. Mikakos resigned when it was clear that the premier had stabbed her in the back and Eccles resigned because he mislead the inquiry but still maintained he had done nothing wrong. The inquiry was set up with as narrow a scope as possible and as a means to delay accountability.

The state government has actually attempted to engineer a massive cover-up and stop the Victorian people from getting the truth of what happened. We hah the premier, three ministers, three departmental secretaries, two police commissioners, the chief health office all front the inquiry and go full Seargent Schultz. Their stories are just not credible and we deserve better. Even if you accept the stories of these 10 most senior people in our response to the pandemic that they had no knowledge of how major decisions were made, that alone in my eyes is grounds for the Premier to resign as he is presiding over an administration that is completely dysfunctional and incapable of protecting Victorians.

NSW lost a Premier over one bottle of wine FFS!

Accountability, especially if it is real accountability, shouldn't take years. As soon as it becomes clear that the failure of key personnel has led to catastrophic outcomes then those people should be out of a job. How has the Secretary of the DHHS not been fired at the very minimum? Sutton should probably be out of a job for withholding evidence to the inquiry and he has admitted he knowingly did so.

 

[ferball]

Two heads have rolled and neither of them has taken any accountability. Mikakos resigned when it was clear that the premier had stabbed her in the back and Eccles resigned because he mislead the inquiry but still maintained he had done nothing wrong. The inquiry was set up with as narrow a scope as possible and as a means to delay accountability.

The state government has actually attempted to engineer a massive cover-up and stop the Victorian people from getting the truth of what happened. We hah the premier, three ministers, three departmental secretaries, two police commissioners, the chief health office all front the inquiry and go full Seargent Schultz. Their stories are just not credible and we deserve better. Even if you accept the stories of these 10 most senior people in our response to the pandemic that they had no knowledge of how major decisions were made, that alone in my eyes is grounds for the Premier to resign as he is presiding over an administration that is completely dysfunctional and incapable of protecting Victorians.

NSW lost a Premier over one bottle of wine FFS!

Accountability, especially if it is real accountability, shouldn't take years. As soon as it becomes clear that the failure of key personnel has led to catastrophic outcomes then those people should be out of a job. How has the Secretary of the DHHS not been fired at the very minimum? Sutton should probably be out of a job for withholding evidence to the inquiry and he has admitted he knowingly did so.

That NSW premier may have been the cleanest or one of the cleanest new premiers from any side of politics too. Ironically enough.

Mikakos and Eccles have lost their jobs and Mikakos is a nationwide joke.

if all those other people you named are sacked immediately and then whatever follow up happens what then? Who replaces them?

Look at the trouble we've had since we went thru our footy dept last season. Look how that has turned out. Why would this situation be any different?

 

[Kangapirate]

I really have to question where these high test numbers are coming from, I saw on Twitter one of the testing sites was empty, I drove past the one closest to the school yesterday around lunchtime and again empty. Are we sure the bulk of these daily tests aren’t coming mainly from workplace testing? Feels like it’s not happening at community level.

Todays 1 case is probably worse than yesterday’s 5 due to no established link between the infected and the child from the school. Hope I’m wrong but I don’t think we have heard the end of this outbreak. After what happened in June when we were getting 1s, 2s and 0s and the thing blew up just weeks later I don’t want to get carried away.

 

[Themanbun]

I really have to question where these high test numbers are coming from, I saw on Twitter one of the testing sites was empty, I drove past the one closest to the school yesterday around lunchtime and again empty. Are we sure the bulk of these daily tests aren’t coming mainly from workplace testing? Feels like it’s not happening at community level.

Todays 1 case is probably worse than yesterday’s 5 due to no established link between the infected and the child from the school. Hope I’m wrong but I don’t think we have heard the end of this outbreak. After what happened in June when we were getting 1s, 2s and 0s and the thing blew up just weeks later I don’t want to get carried away.

I had to book an appointment a few days ago because it was so packed at my local drive thru.

 

[Kangapirate]

I had to book an appointment a few days ago because it was so packed at my local drive thru.

location? Maybe it varies but having some of the sites in those hotspot areas empty isn’t a good sign.

 

[7577969923]

That NSW premier may have been the cleanest or one of the cleanest new premiers from any side of politics too. Ironically enough.

Mikakos and Eccles have lost their jobs and Mikakos is a nationwide joke.

if all those other people you named are sacked immediately and then whatever follow up happens what then? Who replaces them?

Look at the trouble we've had since we went thru our footy dept last season. Look how that has turned out. Why would this situation be any different?

I think the idea that the people whose incompetence got us into the biggest crisis we have faced as a state are the only ones who could get us out is a fallacy.

Sutton's deputy is probably better qualified than he is. Victoria has a massive bureaucracy to replace the department secretaries. The premier and ministers are all political hacks without any apparent talent so would be very easily replaced.

 

[Themanbun]

location? Maybe it varies but having some of the sites in those hotspot areas empty isn’t a good sign.

Out west mate

 

[B4Bear]

I think the idea that the people whose incompetence got us into the biggest crisis we have faced as a state are the only ones who could get us out is a fallacy.

Sutton's deputy is probably better qualified than he is. Victoria has a massive bureaucracy to replace the department secretaries. The premier and ministers are all political hacks without any apparent talent so would be very easily replaced.

We get it, you hate the government, the premier and the government apparatus.

How about you give yourself, and us a break from your eight week diatribe? It is seriously unhealthy.

 

[ferball]

I think the idea that the people whose incompetence got us into the biggest crisis we have faced as a state are the only ones who could get us out is a fallacy.

Sutton's deputy is probably better qualified than he is. Victoria has a massive bureaucracy to replace the department secretaries. The premier and ministers are all political hacks without any apparent talent so would be very easily replaced.

Of those people only Sutton's deputy would have the situational awareness and familiarity with processes and people to take the role on.

I don't think you understand this but getting people to speed with the situation will create more opportunity for failure at this point.

This outbreak is specifically down to the DHHS and the security company failing to implement proper infection control procedures. The DHHS' responsible minister is gone ... What about the business that failed - the security company? Has their management been sacked or anything similar?

The awarding of the deal to the security company is a seperate issue to the security company failing. Regardless of how dodgy the deal is infection control is not some arcane art from Byzantinium. It's a matter of applying minor levels of intelligence with discipline and control. The business being paid handsomely to run security is responsible for making sure its employees are capable of doing the job.

Surely you agree with that.

The security company is a disgrace, as is the department.

The DHHS probably needs to be purged and rebuilt from the ground up but again you can't do that now. That is more likely to make things worse.

 

[Whiskey Stat]

You just had a crack at me for not completely understanding what you wrote:

Unfortunately the keyword there is most not all and there are some egregious examples.

SP Ausnet paid out over $600m in legal settlements. I don't know if heads rolled.

Not sure I would be citing SP Ausnet and the Marysville fires as proof of corporate responsibility.

They were more than happy for a local CFA captain to take the heat as well as bear the brunt of the police investigation and colonial inquest, despite their power lines being responsible for the initial point of ignition. They likely would have not have been held to account, or paid a single cent in compensation, if a local had not come forward and, somewhat belatedly, admit they had seen SP Austnets power lines sparking in the grass just before the fire took off.

Fair to say they are a perfect example of a company doing all they can to avoid responsibility.

 

[7577969923]

Not sure I would be citing SP Ausnet and the Marysville fires as proof of corporate responsibility.

They were more than happy for a local CFA captain to take the heat as well as bear the brunt of the police investigation and colonial inquest, despite their power lines being responsible for the initial point of ignition. They likely would have not have been held to account, or paid a single cent in compensation, if a local had not come forward and, somewhat belatedly, admit they had seen SP Austnets power lines sparking in the grass just before the fire took off.

Fair to say they are a perfect example of a company doing all they can to avoid responsibility.

Fair enough.

 

[7577969923]

Didnt you say earlier in the thread that the profit motive isn't the overriding objective of business? LOL

And yes, I do think billions of dollars of grants to help businesses pay bills and to help them materially change their operations to continue functioning during a pandemic when they re-open will make a difference.



It wasn't available before the pandemic because perhaps, just perhaps, he is listening to business concerns about paying the bills and continuing to operate once we re-open. That was pretty clearly the entire purpose of stating it, not to make some broad statement about pre-Covid support.



If every time you said "I never said X" were true then you'd have never said anything at all.

Just because you say "patently obvious" doesn't make it so. You can keep shouting it as much as you want, it won't detract from the clear attention they've been given in the form of billions of dollars and changes to roads, dining areas, etc. before the budget has even been announced.

------

Throwing your state into another 5-10 billion dollars of debt to help out stakeholders who you "patently, obviously dismiss", because that'll show 'em.

As I've said earlier, you've jumped the shark.

If I've jumped the shark, you have gone full #istandwithdan. More just revealing your original partisan biases I suspect.

"If every time you said "I never said X" were true then you'd have never said anything at all."

That is a complete load of horse sh*t. I happily acknowledge everything I say and when I believe I have been proven wrong then I am also happy to acknowledge that, unlike you.

"Just because you say "patently obvious" doesn't make it so."

Have you actually taken the time to listen to or read any of the commentaries from the heads of the business industry bodies or the CEOs of the major Victorian-based companies who have tried to engage with Andrews? Every one of them has said he doesn't listen and consult. Just because you assert something doesn't make it true either. And the grants/support paid to business is nothing like 5 to 10 billion. That is pure fiction. For the vast majority of these businesses the grants amount to a week or two of lost revenue in the context 6 months of either complete shutdowns or severe limitations on their operations

How does allowing outside dining and only 20 people dining indoors assist a business with no access to outdoor space and a dining room that can seat 100 plus patrons? They are not configured to approach anywhere near breakeven with 20 patrons and could easily cater to many more in a very Covid safe manor.

 

[Hojuman]

4 yesterday.