Opinion Dayne Beams and Steele Sidebottom

[Shaneprice97]

Sidebottom is a wingman, Beams is an onballer, shouldnt matter.

 

[Seedsfan]

He runs back and helps the defence but doesn't worry about his man.

Just shows you are living in the past, you don't have a clue. It is not about your man any more. It is about shutting down the most dangerous option hense why Sidey goes and helps out the backline letting one of the forwards role up on to his man

 

[ThisIsJake]

Beams has had 98 tackles this year which is 18 more than our designated tagger, Macaffer. I think he's going OK defensively

As an inside midfielder his tackle count is more based on intensity than defensive attitude. The defensive side of his game is on par with an Ablett or Swan, It's not a major problem for me though. Especially seeing as Pendles and SIDEBOTTOM are very defensively minded.

 

[Jasper84]

If we are talking about during bounces, all of our midfield is severely lacking accountability. The amount of times they are caught out ball watching while the opposition gets the clearance is ridiculous. To me, it seems as though they became so comfortable with Jolly winning the taps that now they just assume it is coming to them and instead of picking up their man, they play way too offensively.

 

[Prochard123]

Im a massive fan of Sidebottom. I especially liked his first half of 2012 which he played as a prolific inside midfielder. However, his inside work has gone backwards, but he is still one of my favourite players. His speed and occasional poor disposals have caused almost everyone to underrate him but a few and Supercoach/Champions date

 

[ClaytonM]

If we are talking about during bounces, all of our midfield is severely lacking accountability. The amount of times they are caught out ball watching while the opposition gets the clearance is ridiculous. To me, it seems as though they became so comfortable with Jolly winning the taps that now they just assume it is coming to them and instead of picking up their man, they play way too offensively.

When did Jolly win a tap? Must have missed it.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Beams maybe, definitely not Sidebottom.

Beams can at times be guilty of getting ahead of the play, ie he expects his teammates to win the clearance and runs forward or wide in anticipation of a handball or quick kick out. If his opponent doesn't follow him or even worse we don't win the clearance his man is left untended. This only occurs when he isn't winning the clearance himself, so in the last few weeks not very often. Pretty hard to fault him for leaving his man when the other team wins the clearance and its not his direct opponent that gets the clearance. I was always taught the guy with ball in hand is the most dangerous so go to him.

Sidebottom I don't think has ever played a "hard" tag in his career. He is an outside player and like most, leaves space between him and his direct opponent so he has time if he receives the ball or in an attempt to intercept. Sidebottom also leaves his man to run back hard in defense to assist our young, inexperienced backline. I can't fault him for this, as he would probably be the hardest runner in our team.

All that aside these two players have been in our best nearly every game this season so any criticism of them is minor at best. There are bigger fish to fry than flogging these blokes.

I do this in soccer. After I won about 4 50/50s in a row I would expect my teammates to win just one so that I can get some easier outside ball. Unfortunately this doesn't happen in my team nor at Collingwood.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Just shows you are living in the past, you don't have a clue. It is not about your man any more. It is about shutting down the most dangerous option hense why Sidey goes and helps out the backline letting one of the forwards role up on to his man

A huge problem with our game plan is this.

It is precisely about your man, or any man that is closest to you and that you are accountable for.

Defending kick-ins is a great sign of this. It should be man on man, but we allow opponents two easy passes to pierce our "zonal defense" and then we criticise Keeffe and Frost for losing a marking contest man on man.

 

[akneal]

I was hoping you were taking the piss....

 

[ksardog]

Sidebottom is unaccountable?

You constantly see him running back hard to help out the defence...

yes, clearly our best 2 way gut runner at the club

 

[suspect footskills]

A huge problem with our game plan is this.

It is precisely about your man, or any man that is closest to you and that you are accountable for.
Defending kick-ins is a great sign of this. It should be man on man, but we allow opponents two easy passes to pierce our "zonal defense" and then we criticise Keeffe and Frost for losing a marking contest man on man.

I think there's great merit in what you've pointed out here. For other teams and most of the comp even it may not be about the man but for us I think we need to focus more on 1v1's if we're to have a chance.
Our talent level doesn't really allow us to play any other way really and when we bring our intense tackling game that usually gets us over the line it's because the opposition player who has the ball gets smashed time and time again until they lose confidence.
Look, my understanding of the game isn't all that great but I see certain things and I see that our inexperienced team just can't run a zoned defence as players don't know where they need to be or when to be there. For now the best thing would be to keep it simple and give the you g blokes confidence that comes from either winning or not being completely smashed. Bring out a more complex gameplan when the list is ready for it.

 

[Markfs]

Would rather delist Beams to teach Sidebottom a lesson on accountability.

thanks for the breath of sanity...you should now turn your attention to fixing the forward line..

 

[MeisterBot]

thanks for the breath of sanity...you should now turn your attention to fixing the forward line..

I'd start by picking up Waite from Carlton. Allows Reid (or Cloke) to be played back.

I would then attempt to trade Goldsack for Garlett (Free Agency I know, but Moneybags could get Carlton to give us a throw away which we trade back for Garlett like Monfries did for Essendon when he moved to Port).

Finally, I'd offer a 600k pa contract at Higgins. Broomhead can bugger off to Port and Kennedy to Adelaide then. Don't need them if we have Higgins and Garlett. Cloke at FB, Waite at FF, Higgins and Garlett in the pockets. Forward line solved.

 

[Seedsfan]

A huge problem with our game plan is this.

It is precisely about your man, or any man that is closest to you and that you are accountable for.

Defending kick-ins is a great sign of this. It should be man on man, but we allow opponents two easy passes to pierce our "zonal defense" and then we criticise Keeffe and Frost for losing a marking contest man on man.

Keeffe and Frost play a different role to a guy like Sidebottom and Beams

 

[Collingwoodity]

Keeffe and Frost play a different role to a guy like Sidebottom and Beams

And Fasolo to Blair.

But if helps not if Fasolo and Blair are each marking space whilst the opposition cuts through the "zone" like a knife through hot butter.

 

[Big Bryza]

The person we need to get out of our midfield is Macaffer.

Offers nothing offensively and doesn't negate enough, taking up a crucial spot.

Came to post something similar to this. Beams and Sidebottom are far from the issue.

It's players such as Caff, Young, Dwyer, Lumumba, White that need to be overtaken by young guys in the next 12 months for us to improve as a team again.

 

[rand corp]

I see Beams working hard in close both attacking and defending also gets up and down the ground

Sidey gets u and down the ground but is a bit of a downhill skier for mine, still better than a lot of kids on our list so not in danger of losing his slot.

 

[DaVe86]

Came to post something similar to this. Beams and Sidebottom are far from the issue.

It's players such as Caff, Young, Dwyer, Lumumba, White that need to be overtaken by young guys in the next 12 months for us to improve as a team again.

It's already starting to happen.

Young and Dwyer and White are all out this week whilst Kennedy, Broomhead and Grundy are in and playing the similar roles.

That's why I'm pretty positive about our season. We've had the improvement from our youth we wanted...but probably not the consistency yet.

I've stated a few times, as has KM, that the hope would be Marley replaces Caff in the middle, and then Scharenberg or Seedsman slot in down back.

 

[Leigh Lowther]

This is slightly off topic - But does a team need taggers? I'm firm believer of the notion that defense or offense depends solely if your team has possession of the ball or not. So the tagging role is purely for the stoppages. Tagging an opponent will either shutdown an opposition player (is that really possible against talented midfielders?), hinder their performance or it will not work at all. Therefore the best result you can hope for is a shutdown, which is essentially going even at best - because every time a player decides to tag, they will never be attempting to win their own ball. On top of that, there are many talented midfielders that still win the ball under a heavy tag so unless we are matching the player with a just as strong player, the tagger is still going to lose more often than not.

So the alternative to a tagger is to have another player trying to win the ball. We were known as having the best midfield without the role Macaffer has, and it seems like we all believe we have future gun midfielders in Kennedy, Adams and Broomhead, and then we have true elites in Beams and Pendlebury, Swan and to an extent Ball - So why don't we force other teams to match our tempo instead of making the opposition have to work less in stopping our midfield?

I also find it pretty unrealistic to call Macaffer an elite tagger for most noticably shutting down one of the worst captains in Murphy who is leading the competition in free kicks for, which is irrelevant but makes him appear to be a better player than he actually is. Spectators, and our club included got caught into the hype that we had an elite tagger when in truth, someone published an article using evidence of about 2-3 games in which Caff beat Murphy which is nothing to brag about.

The tagging role are for clubs that have a weaker midfield. The aim is to shutdown the effectiveness of an elite player at the cost of their weaker midfielder which is a trade anybody would be pleased with.


If our fire is stronger, we should win fire vs fire. There is no reason to make our midfield less of a threat than it should be.

 

[Yidaki]

Sidebottom is unaccountable?

You constantly see him running back hard to help out the defence...

Exactly. He is the MOST accountable player currently playing for the Black and White. Not one gut runs better than him.

 

[Big Bryza]

It's already starting to happen.

Young and Dwyer and White are all out this week whilst Kennedy, Broomhead and Grundy are in and playing the similar roles.

That's why I'm pretty positive about our season. We've had the improvement from our youth we wanted...but probably not the consistency yet.

I've stated a few times, as has KM, that the hope would be Marley replaces Caff in the middle, and then Scharenberg or Seedsman slot in down back.

That's why I'm as excited about the outs this week as I am about ins. I'd like to Scharenberg and Seedsman coming off half back from next year.

 

[mike123]

Exactly. He is the MOST accountable player currently playing for the Black and White. Not one gut runs better than him.

Gut running and accountability are two different things.

 

[PTpie]

This is slightly off topic - But does a team need taggers? I'm firm believer of the notion that defense or offense depends solely if your team has possession of the ball or not. So the tagging role is purely for the stoppages. Tagging an opponent will either shutdown an opposition player (is that really possible against talented midfielders?), hinder their performance or it will not work at all. Therefore the best result you can hope for is a shutdown, which is essentially going even at best - because every time a player decides to tag, they will never be attempting to win their own ball. On top of that, there are many talented midfielders that still win the ball under a heavy tag so unless we are matching the player with a just as strong player, the tagger is still going to lose more often than not.

The tagging role are for clubs that have a weaker midfield. The aim is to shutdown the effectiveness of an elite player at the cost of their weaker midfielder which is a trade anybody would be pleased with.

If our fire is stronger, we should win fire vs fire. There is no reason to make our midfield less of a threat than it should be.

I've highlighted 2 relevant points in your post and I'll give my opinion on them.

1. Tagging is mostly about stoppages, however the tagger should be applying constant pressure to his opponent to limit their effective disposal all over the ground. Who cares if they have 30 touches at 50% DE, all in the back half?. The best taggers should also be trying to "hurt them the other way", by winning their own ball and using it effectively. I believe Caff has started to develop this in the latter part of this season as he no longer seems intent on completely shutting down his opponent and can often be found as a loose man through the middle or even in the forward 50.

2. Our midfield is currently getting spanked week in, week out. At the moment we are a weak midfield. Once we get our top end in back in and performing I, like many others, would love to see Caff pushing Blair for the defensive forward role. This will depend on the cattle available on the field and how they are playing though.

Whilst a tagger isn't crucial to success it depends how deep your midfield talent is and when we have our best in the same side we don't need one however this year Caff has shown he can do the role effectively when we need it done.

 

[Leigh Lowther]

I've highlighted 2 relevant points in your post and I'll give my opinion on them.

1. Tagging is mostly about stoppages, however the tagger should be applying constant pressure to his opponent to limit their effective disposal all over the ground. Who cares if they have 30 touches at 50% DE, all in the back half?. The best taggers should also be trying to "hurt them the other way", by winning their own ball and using it effectively. I believe Caff has started to develop this in the latter part of this season as he no longer seems intent on completely shutting down his opponent and can often be found as a loose man through the middle or even in the forward 50.

2. Our midfield is currently getting spanked week in, week out. At the moment we are a weak midfield. Once we get our top end in back in and performing I, like many others, would love to see Caff pushing Blair for the defensive forward role. This will depend on the cattle available on the field and how they are playing though.

Whilst a tagger isn't crucial to success it depends how deep your midfield talent is and when we have our best in the same side we don't need one however this year Caff has shown he can do the role effectively when we need it done.

Good post, and I completely agree with everything you said in the first part, but every point you make is something that every midfielder is capable of, even if they aren't a tagger. ie If we aren't in possession we're all on the defensive (in a general sense - that is we still need players ready to run on the rebounds), and then when we do get the ball, our midfielders are giving our defenders a target and subsequently delivering the ball into forward. And the truth is, you're right about Caff. He does create opportunities offensively and is a decent shot at goal, so despite the impression you might get from my initial post. I admit, contrary to what I initially posted, Caff isn't strictly defensive, but I do believe that he is still given an inefficient role. Lets see more of the old Caffer's offensive ability rather than playing a role that limits it.

I'm still adamant though during a stoppage, they should all play the scenario to win the ball - rather than account for the times when the opposition gets it, but when that happens naturally we should all go defensive so it isn't the problem of not having a tagger - its the problem of not being able to win the ball in the first place. You notice during our games, even when we lose we still have the tackling pressure - however the other team usually keep possession of the ball, despite our efforts.

The fact that we aren't winning the ball out of the center now should be more reason as to why we need that extra rover to go for the ball, to increase our chances. If we have a win, naturally Macaffer will stand out because our stats will generally be alot more positive than the opponent, so he is always going to look good when we have a win. But am I singling out Macaffer as to the reason why we've been losing? - that he hasn't been tagging effectively, definitely not. When you are put on the defensive to begin with you are always on the back foot. Every team concedes points - AFL isn't a sport where the top 4 sides can completely shut down the opposition, holding them to an abysmal score - It is a matter of who can score more points - not who is better defensively.

I think you can take draw of parallels from Basketball to AFL. Basketball is almost like a microcosm to AFL. They play extremely similarly, and naturally the lesser the variables are the easier the game is to figure out (Basketball being 5 on 5). Basketball players don't tag opponents per se, they mark yes (which you could argue is the same as tagging) but when they do have the ball - they are ALL on the offensive. It's essentially a role switch.



So to summarize;
- I think all midfielders should be playing the same similar role
- You shouldn't tag a player when the ball is in contention - (that means 3v2 players are going for the ball in every center bounce, discounting both ruckmen)
- Macaffer does show tendencies of playing offensively - because thats natural and he should be - but he is given a role that inhibits this to a degree

 

[James1001]

Zorko and beams head to head up to half time and zorko has made beams look awfuly unaccountable.

Beams often trying to stream forward before we even have won possession.