Decriminalisation of drugs... your thoughts?

[Number37]

- Remove impure and potentially dangerous cocktails of unknown compounds from circulation..

How?


Why would Portugal have "drug lords" after decriminalisation?

http://portugalresident.com/drug-lord-arrested-in-quarteira

 

[Snake_Baker]

How?


Why would Portugal have "drug lords" after decriminalisation?

http://portugalresident.com/drug-lord-arrested-in-quarteira

This is a pitfall of decriminalisation.

This is why full across the board legalisation is a better idea.

 

[Eagle Wrath]

How?


Why would Portugal have "drug lords" after decriminalisation?

http://portugalresident.com/drug-lord-arrested-in-quarteira

Even if the drug demand dropped in Portugal, the neighboring countries in Europe would still have a massive demand for it.

It would be like if WA decriminalized it and the other states didn't. Drug lords would still be active in WA and selling to the other states for example.

 

[BEaston]

Sorry but you've lost me. I was just coming around but that is just complete nonsense.

How many people have gone on paracetamol fuelled rages?

Who has been so desperate for a tabacco hit that they have broken into a house to steal stuff so that they can buy a packet of cigarettes?

It's not nonsense at all. Sorry but you're very uninformed here.

 

[BEaston]

Personally think if it was legal demand would decrease

This has been shown to be false.

 

[Number37]

This is a pitfall of decriminalisation.

This is why full across the board legalisation is a better idea.

You have not provided one argument how it would work.

All you have said is ice is safe. Which is completely misleading because, as you have acknowledged, the ice sold on the street is different to the ice that is safe.

The example of injecting rooms is good example of how it could work, but it is a long long way from addressing all the issues.

In terms of the user side of drug addiction, it shouldn't be criminalised. But as I have repeatedly said, the issue is far far more complex than that.
You are completely naive if you think that decriminalisation means legal production and sale of drugs like ice for non-medicinal use.

Medicinal drugs are heavily regulated, you are naive if you think that recreational drugs wouldn't also be heavily regulated.

Most importantly, drug cartels are not going to disappear. I would suggest that you are just going to make it easier for them.

Even if the drug demand dropped in Portugal, the neighboring countries in Europe would still have a massive demand for it.

It would be like if WA decriminalized it and the other states didn't. Drug lords would still be active in WA and selling to the other states for example.

You are misrepresenting what happened in Portugal.

 

[Number37]

It's not nonsense at all. Sorry but you're very uninformed here.

The suggestion that a drug is safe without any regard to how it was manufactured and who is using it and the dosage is complete and utter nonsense.

 

[BEaston]

The suggestion that a drug is safe without any regard to how it was manufactured and who is using it and the dosage is complete and utter nonsense.

No s**t, that's the whole point.

 

[Snake_Baker]

You have not provided one argument how it would work.

I have provided plenty of data that outlines how legalisation is better than the current scenario

All you have said is ice is safe.

Let's set aside the media generated scare terms. Methamphetamine is relatively safe if it is utilised properly.

Which is completely misleading because, as you have acknowledged, the ice sold on the street is different to the ice that is safe.

Hence my reasoning to legalise the stuff. You seem to be very confused.

The example of injecting rooms is good example of how it could work, but it is a long long way from addressing all the issues.

I'm making points that would make the issue better, not perfect.

In terms of the user side of drug addiction, it shouldn't be criminalised. But as I have repeatedly said, the issue far far more complex than that.

There are no perfect outcomes for this. Only better ones.

You are completely naive if you think that decriminalisation means legal production and sale of drugs like ice for non-medicinal use.

You seem to be hung up on the concept of "decriminalisation". I am not advocating this, so I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion.

Medicinal drugs are heavily regulated, you are naive if you think that recreational drugs wouldn't also be heavily regulated.

Have you even read anything I have posted? I am calling for across the board legalisation. Not decriminalisation, LEGALISATION.

Most importantly, drug cartels are not going to disappear. I would suggest that you are just going to make it easier for them.

Drug cartels exist to make money. They will disappear overnight when confronted with a very cheap and better competitor and the risk of long jail terms and asset confiscation. This is basic primary school economics.

 

[Snake_Baker]

A dose of pharmaceutical grade methamphetamine is around 20 cents on the PBS.

That is not a typo, I mean 20 cents!

The manufacture and supply of virtually all of the other illegal drugs would be in a comparable price range.

How is the black market (drug cartels) going to compete with that?

 

[Gough]

A dose of pharmaceutical grade methamphetamine is around 20 cents on the PBS.

That is not a typo, I mean 20 cents!

How is the black market going to compete with that?

Up until a couple of yours ago when they went to prescription only, you could buy diet pills in South Africa that were basically pseudo ephedrine tablets and they cost pennies.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Up until a couple of yours ago when they went to prescription only, you could buy diet pills in South Africa that were basically pseudo ephedrine tablets and they cost pennies.

Yep, PBS = script.

These are all very old and very cheaply manufactured compounds.

 

[TimmeT]

Sorry but you've lost me. I was just coming around but that is just complete nonsense.

How many people have gone on paracetamol fuelled rages?

Who has been so desperate for a tabacco hit that they have broken into a house to steal stuff so that they can buy a packet of cigarettes?

I cannot comprehend how meth was deemed safe if done properly. This is the s**t that causes people to go full * and leads to others getting harmed by the users for s**t not associated with needing to obtain funds for its purchase.

 

[Number37]

I have provided plenty of data that outlines how legalisation is better than the current scenario

You haven't provided any data.

Let's set aside the media generated scare terms. Methamphetamine is relatively safe if it is utilised properly.

Like every other drug...

By the right people in the right doses....it is not safe for anyone and everyone who wants to take meth.

Hence my reasoning to legalise the stuff. You seem to be very confused.

You seem to be confused. You yourself stated that it is used medicinally in particularly circumstances.
So it is legalised.
What is not legalised is RECREATIONAL USE.

You seem to be hung up on the concept of "decriminalisation". I am not advocating this, so I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion.

As above.
In the circumstance of medicinal use, most drugs are already legal.
In the circumstance of recreational use, all drugs are illegal.

So it is the circumstance of the use that needs to be legalised not the drug itself.

Drug cartels exist to make money. They will disappear overnight when confronted with a very cheap and better competitor and the risk of long jail terms and asset confiscation. This is basic primary school economics.

Why hasn't the "risk of long jail terms and asset confiscation" stopped drug cartels thus far?
That argument is just plain ridiculous!

Drug cartels exist to make money. They will disappear overnight when confronted with a very cheap and better competitor and the risk of long jail terms and asset confiscation. This is basic primary school economics.

Primary schools don't teach economics.
Why would the price of recreational drugs become cheap?
Another of your ridiculous assumptions, and no it is not because the HUN writes scare campaigns.


What's stopping drug cartels from buying this new cheap <meth> and concocting a new drug to sell on the streets?

 

[Snake_Baker]

You're having a conversation with yourself again.

In answer to your three questions.

Why hasn't the "risk of long jail terms and asset confiscation" stopped drug cartels thus far?

Billions of dollars in black market business.

Why would the price of recreational drugs become cheap?

Because legalised illicit drugs are very cheap to make.

What's stopping drug cartels from buying this new cheap <meth> and concocting a new drug to sell on the streets?

In the face of a legalised market, illegally manufactured drugs cease to have any realistic value.

If some very different type of new drug appeared on the market, it should also be immediately legalised and it's black market evaporated..

 

[Dan Baker]

Unfortunately people who have lost their minds, residing in a permanent health facility are not forthcoming in most cases truthfully about about how they ended up in the position they did.

Sometimes chemical imbalances don't happen for a couple of weeks after ingesting drugs.

There are many people who are in permanent health facilities under intensive monitoring for abusing drugs like dexies because they felt they would not be harmed by abusing tabs of Dextroamphetamine sometimes in combination with other drugs like cannabis.

Don't expect any accurate research on people that are in mental institutions for the abuse of drugs in a state of drug induced psychosis if the patient is not forthcoming with the truth. Off the record they will speak to their carers about their past bad habits, if they aren't still in a state of denial or have the logic to communicate that.

While the argument for drug criminalisation might be appeared it failed, legalisation hasn't a future either for many reasons, mostly the abuse of drugs and some that are highly addictive.

The government cant just start selling dangerous "psychoactive" drugs that ruin peoples brains permanently through addictive abuse.

You only have to look at the ISIS issue of the drug Captagon which turned people into killer zombies.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/3021370...els-isis-and-turns-soldiers-into-superhumans/

Government sells legal drugs, dealers sell it cheaper. Addicted people will buy psychoactive drugs cheaper. Whether the drugs cause long term damage or are highly addictive, we still have people using prescription drugs more than ever.

Fentanyl, also known as fentanil, is an opioid which is used as a pain medication and together with other medications for anesthesia. It has a rapid onset and effects generally last less than an hour or two.

Medicinal cannabis has the psychoactive THC removed.

People think Dexies are safe. They need to speak to some health professionals about those in permanent care who have abused the drug.

 

[Snake_Baker]

We have just clicked in to full tin foil hat mode.

 

[Dan Baker]

You're having a conversation with yourself again.
In answer to your three questions.
Billions of dollars in black market business.
Because legalised illicit drugs are very cheap to make.
In the face of a legalised market, illegally manufactured drugs cease to have any realistic value.
If some very different type of new drug appeared on the market, it should also be immediately legalised and it's black market evaporated..

I'm hearing you. There are foreign entities out there making huge sums of money that could endanger Australia's sovereignty.

I don't think there is a simple answer, but I don't think government has taken seriously the amount of cash that has been built up by people who have little ethics. Government has accountants running this. Long term, Australia will face that money being used against them.

We have two recent one tonne busts coming to Australia from China. We potentially have a sovereignty issue with the amount of money these quantities generate in cash.

There is billions of dollars being amassed and the government is sitting on its hands about funding greater attacks on crime.

 

[Number37]

In the face of a legalised market, illegally manufactured drugs cease to have any realistic value.

Like tobacco.
Oh wait, not true.




Kudos for advocating for decriminalisation.
Unfortunately for you, your economics is way off and that has everything to do with your grandiose assumptions.

 

[Dan Baker]

We have just clicked in to full tin foil hat mode.

I think you just pulled the hand grenade pin on your argument

"Psychoactive" drugs are not safe, no matter who makes them, more so when they are addictive or abused.

Thats why psychoactive drugs are illegal.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Like tobacco.
Oh wait, not true.




Kudos for advocating for decriminalisation.
Unfortunately for you, your economics is way off and that has everything to do with your grandiose assumptions.

The black market in tobacco is the result of heavy government taxation of the product.

Read your Hayek.

 

[Dan Baker]

Tobacco is not classed as a "psychoactive" drug, nor is alcohol which is why they were legal.

Taxation helps pay for user pay on hospital care, and as a deterrent. I do however agree, government looking for revenue, thinks it can simply keep banging a tax on these items. Kids then see these psychoactive drugs as a cheaper night out.

Government has too high a tax on alcohol in Australia. The more expensive alcohol is, the more chance kids will risk psychoactive drugs.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Tobacco is not classed as a "psychoactive" drug, nor is alcohol which is why they were legal.

What?

Dan, cant you just stick to playing prosecutor on the crime board?

 

[Number37]

The black market in tobacco is the result of heavy government taxation of the product.

Read your Hayek.

Mate, they heavily tax tobacco to discourage people from smoking.
Can you imagine the tax they would put on recreational drugs if your utopian all drugs are legal and cheap and easy to get fantasy became reality?

Fair to say you are way to caught up in the 'drugs are safe' bubble to appreciate that legalisation isn't going to play out how you have fantasized.

 

[Dan Baker]

Opium was very legal at one stage and hooked half of China. The POMs used to sell opium through Hong Kong last century.