Mega Thread Delist/Trade/Draft Super-mega-ultrathread

[Ian Dargie]

This thumping of the chest and arguing ad infinitum minor points, tires me so fast that I skim anything said by these posters. Some of them think themselves as smart, but they are so "smart" that go around the circle and finished as "stupid."

Passive-aggressive nonsense.

I'm here talking about football and you're here acting indignant.

Stop brown-nosing.

 

[mattyc75]

Who would we have drafted in the parallel universe in which Judd stayed?

You are looking at all the progress the club has made in recent years and retroactively attributing it to Judd leaving. Sorry, but it's illogical.

Judd leaving, and what we got in return, was a poke in the eye. The fact that we have recovered strongly doesn't alter that. Our strength is not a by-product of the setback. One is independent of the other.

If we win a flag in the next 2-3 years, will people attribute that to Judd leaving? Surely we should attribute it to hard work and good drafting in the years since.

so you are saying there is absolutely no correlation between a team bottoming out ,getting decent draft picks then being competative again?

 

[Ian Dargie]

so you are saying there is absolutely no correlation between a team bottoming out ,getting decent draft picks then being competative again?

There is a correlation between bottoming out and getting high picks. That's obvious. But that's not a guarantee of rebounding as strongly as we have. Far from it.

Plenty of teams have been shitter than we were for much longer. It's not a given that you go down and bounce back up again. So you don't get to blithely attribute our resurgence to Judd leaving, like 'oh, that worked out well in the end'. No, it worked out badly because our best player left and we got unders in the trade. That was a bad outcome. Period.

Our resurgence wasn't because Judd left. It was because of the people who helped rebuild the list and, of course, the players. That happened after Judd left, not because he left. Your causal link is broken.

Besides, what are you comparing it to? What happened in the parallel universe in which Judd stayed? Who did we draft? Where did we finish those years? Did Swift still become a doctor? Tell me a story.

 

[JackJako27]

I'm here talking about football and you're here acting indignant.

Very little of that actually goes on around here, it's all about shit canning opinions, posting meme's and hanging shit on a semi-literate pyscopathic schoolkid.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Very little of that actually goes on around here, it's all about shit canning opinions, posting meme's and hanging shit on a semi-literate pyscopathic schoolkid.

For the record, I don't claim to be opposed to any of those.

Bad opinions – yes, there is such a thing – deserve to be shit-canned, some memes are hilarious and I can't wait for that schoolkid to reveal his true identity. I reckon he is a Mayan witch doctor sent hurtling 3000 years into the future. Or Samantha Lane. Either would explain the fact he is apparently still learning to operate a keyboard.

But amid all that, I'd rather talk about football than whinge about other people talking about football. This isn't a PTA meeting, where gratuitous hand-wringing draws approving sighs from other dipshits.

 

[Hap Hapablap]

can claim that we did reasonably ok in this period, never seen us that active in trade week and got in a few unknowns but thanks to the culture of the club im confident we can change one rotten apple into a delicious apple pie.

 

[Noctorniquet]

great to see shuey re sign, hopefully it encourages a few other eastern states boys to stay put

 

[fryzie]

Not sure how anybody is actually arguing that losing Judd for picks 3 and 20 and a 20 game key forward was a win at the time, or even that it's a win at this stage because Kennedy and Masten have come good and Carlton haven't won a premiership with Judd.

In my view, the only way we 'win' the trade overall is if Kennedy finishes in the top 3 or 4 in the Coleman this year and kicks 4+ in the Grand Final while Masten wins the Norm Smith and comes top 3 in the B+F. And then Carlton would have to not win a Premiership while Judd is still playing.

And even then, we got shafted at the time of the trade, we lost the best player in the league who went on to win another Brownlow.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

Not sure how anybody is actually arguing that losing Judd for picks 3 and 20 and a 20 game key forward was a win at the time, or even that it's a win at this stage because Kennedy and Masten have come good and Carlton haven't won a premiership with Judd.

In my view, the only way we 'win' the trade overall is if Kennedy finishes in the top 3 or 4 in the Coleman this year and kicks 4+ in the Grand Final while Masten wins the Norm Smith and comes top 3 in the B+F. And then Carlton would have to not win a Premiership while Judd is still playing.

And even then, we got shafted at the time of the trade, we lost the best player in the league who went on to win another Brownlow.

Not only was he the best player in the league. There was talk of his first 6 years being the best football ever played. He was touted as being the greatest midfielder if not player of all time. We got well beaten in that trade. How you can argue he wasnt worth 1, 3, Kennedy and another shitty carlton player at the time is beyond me. But it's done. We didn't win the trade but the West Coast Eagles are about winning premierships and nothing else and thats all that matters to me.

 

[Agent93]

He was also rather injured... dodgy groin, shoulders held on with tape.

 

[Belgarion]

Not only was he the best player in the league. There was talk of his first 6 years being the best football ever played. He was touted as being the greatest midfielder if not player of all time. We got well beaten in that trade. How you can argue he wasnt worth 1, 3, Kennedy and another shitty carlton player at the time is beyond me. But it's done. We didn't win the trade but the West Coast Eagles are about winning premierships and nothing else and thats all that matters to me.

I agree 100%, especially the part bolded.

 

[keviewiggle]

Not only was he the best player in the league. There was talk of his first 6 years being the best football ever played. He was touted as being the greatest midfielder if not player of all time. We got well beaten in that trade. How you can argue he wasnt worth 1, 3, Kennedy and another shitty carlton player at the time is beyond me. But it's done. We didn't win the trade but the West Coast Eagles are about winning premierships and nothing else and thats all that matters to me.

Well said.
Who cares.
The past is the past.
What's done is done.
There is too many variables to say how one trade put us in our present state of play.

You could say the sum total of John Worsfolds life has put us in the frame for a crack of the 2013 flag.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

I'd say Judd's form since leaving shows his true quality. More versatile but less effective than we previously thought he was at Westcoast. Being poorly utilised by Carlton might have something to do with it.

 

[keviewiggle]

O

I'd say Judd's form since leaving shows his true quality. More versatile but less effective than we previously thought he was at Westcoast. Being poorly utilised by Carlton might have something to do with it.

On Judd.
One senses that Judd is not entirely thrilled to be reunited with Malthouse.

 

[BradWCE]

On Judd.
One senses that Judd is not entirely thrilled to be reunited with Malthouse.

Reunited?

 

[eagles rule]

O
On Judd.
One senses that Judd is not entirely thrilled to be reunited with Malthouse.

don`t think it`s reunited with Malthouse ,Woosha was coaching Judd at wce

 

[Ian Dargie]

Not sure how anybody is actually arguing that losing Judd for picks 3 and 20 and a 20 game key forward was a win at the time, or even that it's a win at this stage because Kennedy and Masten have come good and Carlton haven't won a premiership with Judd.

In my view, the only way we 'win' the trade overall is if Kennedy finishes in the top 3 or 4 in the Coleman this year and kicks 4+ in the Grand Final while Masten wins the Norm Smith and comes top 3 in the B+F. And then Carlton would have to not win a Premiership while Judd is still playing.

And even then, we got shafted at the time of the trade, we lost the best player in the league who went on to win another Brownlow.

Apparently it's not that straightforward.

Apparently getting shafted on the Judd trade was a 'blessing in disguise' because we subsequently drafted Naitanui and are now good again. Or something.

At this rate, maybe we can figure out some twisted logic to explain how we won the Ebert trade as well.

 

[ArdentEagle]

Apparently it's not that straightforward.

Apparently getting shafted on the Judd trade was a 'blessing in disguise' because we subsequently drafted Naitanui and are now good again. Or something.

At this rate, maybe we can figure out some twisted logic to explain how we won the Ebert trade as well.

It's called Karmic balance.
Now pull up a bean bag, have a puff on the peace pipe and find your inner spirit.
OMMMMMMM

 

[dajesmac]

At this rate, maybe we can figure out some twisted logic to explain how we won the Ebert trade as well.

If McInnes proves to be a better player than Ebert, won't that be considered a win?

 

[Ian Dargie]

I'd say Judd's form since leaving shows his true quality. More versatile but less effective than we previously thought he was at Westcoast.

Huh? Did I read this right?

He was pretty damn versatile at WC. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he was the most complete midfielder I've ever seen during his peak years.

He was one of the best 2-3 contested ball/clearance mids in the comp, who also had serious breakaway pace and the ability to kick goals, to the point where he was probably the league's leading goal-kicking mid. That is an insane and very rare combination. Consider that his goals per game at WC was better than Cousins', who started as FP, rotated through a HFF and was considered handy around goals throughout his career. Judd, despite being more of a contested ball player than Cousins, still kicked more goals per game at WC. On that score, he was miles ahead of guys like Pendlebury and Selwood are at the same stage of their careers (130-odd games), as well as being more explosive than both and at least as effective at winning contested ball.

Broadly speaking, most midfields set up with an inside mid whose job is to get the ball to a runner outside. But we just had Judd doing both those jobs, winning his own ball in close and then taking it away, while also kicking his share of goals. How much more versatile do you want?

Like I said, Judd at WC was probably the most complete midfielder I've ever seen. I struggle to think of any other who combined genuine inside work, breakaway pace and goals to the same effect. He still does the inside work at Carlton but no longer has the freedom to run and carry and kick goals the way he did at WC. At WC, Judd kicked 20 goals in a season five out of his six seasons. He's yet to do it once at Carlton. If anything, he's become less versatile at Carlton and is required to play almost exclusively as an inside mid and contested ball specialist.

 

[Ian Dargie]

If McInnes proves to be a better player than Ebert, won't that be considered a win?

In the event that McInnes comes on, does it alter the fact that we got unders for our player in the trade?

I don't think it does. We got pick 28 and a downgrade on our second-rounder. Was that a good deal for Ebert? Not many thought so at the time. And I think that was reiterated by Ebert's contribution to Port last season and the fact we now lack a bigger-bodied mid.

If McInnes turn out to be a good player, it means we used the picked shrewdly and developed the player properly and made the best of a bad situation. But it doesn't mean a bad deal was actually a good deal. It doesn't mean we won that trade. We didn't. Port did. For a second-rounder, they got a readymade mid who came in, could have won their B&F and might well be their next captain. That's a win for them all day long, isn't it?

I think people have to separate the question of whether a trade offered value from subsequent unrelated developments. The Ebert trade was shit for us - pick 28, which is about pick 30 when you take into account the downgrade. The fact we might yet get some value from that pick doesn't mean it wasn't unders for Ebert.

 

[dajesmac]

In the event that McInnes comes on, does it alter the fact that we got unders for our player in the trade?

I don't think it does. We got pick 28 and a downgrade on our second-rounder. Was that a good deal for Ebert? Not many thought so at the time.

If McInnes turn out to be a good player, it means we used the picked shrewdly and developed the player properly and made the best of a bad situation. But it doesn't mean a bad deal was actually a good deal.

We would still have gotten more out of the trade. I see what you're saying. However if McInnes becomes a gun and Ebert fades into obscurity for example, I can't see it still being considered a trade 'loss'.

Just because we got paid below market value for a player doesn't mean we can't win it.

 

[Ian Dargie]

We would still have gotten more out of the trade.

But you're sandwiching two questions together.

Let's say we lose a good player for pick 60 and we all know we've been shafted. But we somehow pluck a decent player with that late pick. That doesn't mean a shitty deal was actually a good deal. It just means we drafted well. The trade itself would still suck for us.

Hawthorn lost Clint Young to free agency and got a ridiculously low pick as compensation. Everyone agrees they got screwed. But if they end up drafting a decent player with that pick, does that mean they won the exchange?

Hell no, they still got shafted on the compensation. Should they end up finding a decent player with that pick, that is a separate issue. It won't mean that they got value for Young, though. The pick they got in return was still disastrously low, regardless of the quality of the player they end up using it on.

I see what you're saying. However if McInnes becomes a gun and Ebert fades into obscurity for example, I can't see it still being considered a trade 'loss'.

That won't change the fact we got unders for our player.

Just because we got paid below market value for a player doesn't mean we can't win it.

Actually, that's pretty much what it means. We lost a player we wanted and were poorly compensated. It was a bad deal for us. Period. Whatever happens with McInnes is a separate issue.

 

[Shupe]

Ok. So what I think Dargie is saying is that the trades need to be taken in isolation and judged on face value. What we then do with the picks is irrelevant to the trade itself.

I agree with this.

 

[keviewiggle]

Huh? Did I read this right?

He was pretty damn versatile at WC. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he was the most complete midfielder I've ever seen during his peak years.

He was one of the best 2-3 contested ball/clearance mids in the comp, who also had serious breakaway pace and the ability to kick goals, to the point where he was probably the league's leading goal-kicking mid. That is an insane and very rare combination. Consider that his goals per game at WC was better than Cousins', who started as FP, rotated through a HFF and was considered handy around goals throughout his career. Judd, despite being more of a contested ball player than Cousins, still kicked more goals per game at WC. On that score, he was miles ahead of guys like Pendlebury and Selwood are at the same stage of their careers (130-odd games), as well as being more explosive than both and at least as effective at winning contested ball.

Broadly speaking, most midfields set up with an inside mid whose job is to get the ball to a runner outside. But we just had Judd doing both those jobs, winning his own ball in close and then taking it away, while also kicking his share of goals. How much more versatile do you want?

Like I said, Judd at WC was probably the most complete midfielder I've ever seen. I struggle to think of any other who combined genuine inside work, breakaway pace and goals to the same effect. He still does the inside work at Carlton but no longer has the freedom to run and carry and kick goals the way he did at WC. At WC, Judd kicked 20 goals in a season five out of his six seasons. He's yet to do it once at Carlton. If anything, he's become less versatile at Carlton and is required to play almost exclusively as an inside mid and contested ball specialist.

Huh? Did I read this right?

He was pretty damn versatile at WC. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he was the most complete midfielder I've ever seen during his peak years.

He was one of the best 2-3 contested ball/clearance mids in the comp, who also had serious breakaway pace and the ability to kick goals, to the point where he was probably the league's leading goal-kicking mid. That is an insane and very rare combination. Consider that his goals per game at WC was better than Cousins', who started as FP, rotated through a HFF and was considered handy around goals throughout his career. Judd, despite being more of a contested ball player than Cousins, still kicked more goals per game at WC. On that score, he was miles ahead of guys like Pendlebury and Selwood are at the same stage of their careers (130-odd games), as well as being more explosive than both and at least as effective at winning contested ball.

Broadly speaking, most midfields set up with an inside mid whose job is to get the ball to a runner outside. But we just had Judd doing both those jobs, winning his own ball in close and then taking it away, while also kicking his share of goals. How much more versatile do you want?

Like I said, Judd at WC was probably the most complete midfielder I've ever seen. I struggle to think of any other who combined genuine inside work, breakaway pace and goals to the same effect. He still does the inside work at Carlton but no longer has the freedom to run and carry and kick goals the way he did at WC. At WC, Judd kicked 20 goals in a season five out of his six seasons. He's yet to do it once at Carlton. If anything, he's become less versatile at Carlton and is required to play almost exclusively as an inside mid and contested ball specialist.