Opinion Development Season???

[Tbone McGraw]

Taking out the 4 long term injuries to ball, krak, caff and bj, we still have 20 blokes on our list who have played in a gf and by my count 18 premiership players. Our depth is going to be a little tested this year but we will have to see how that turns out.

Imo, the success of this year depends on players like beams, goldy, Marty, fasolo among others who may have been depth players in the past. We can't afford passengers this year

 

[Wooljay]

If, and I say IF, we smash Brisbane out of the park this week this thread will disappear quicker than a crackpipe near Ben Cousins

 

[PieNSauce]

All good posts and I think all recognise reality. It certainly seems like we need some of our former depth players to take the next step and reality says that while it's far from impossible, it is a fairly big ask. I've loved how Beams has stepped up but by the same token, some of our more experienced players have yet to hit their straps. I haven't yet seen Daisy play to anywhere near his usual standard (if 2010/11 can be called usual) and Jolly has been a bit hot and cold. Harry has been fairly average while Swan and Pendles have not seemed quite as dominant (despite the stats) without Ball in and under. There are others in a similar boat but I don't plan to name the whole team.

From where I'm sitting I reckon it's going to be a bit of a rollercoaster so strap in. Let's hope the coaching department are getting their act together and it all will click soon. I think that we need to be fair and recognise that with a whole new coaching department bar 2, it's not especially surprising. Saying all that, I personally won't be surprised to see us suddenly back into favouritism if the team starts to click but my breath is firmly held at the moment.

 

[PieNSauce]

If, and I say IF, we smash Brisbane out of the park this week this thread will disappear quicker than a crackpipe near Ben Cousins

Not unless we beat Geelong the week after!

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

If, and I say IF, we smash Brisbane out of the park this week this thread will disappear quicker than a crackpipe near Ben Cousins

The pipe would still be there, but the crack would have disappeared! Let's hope we do smash Brisbane.

 

[PieNSauce]

The pipe would still be there, but the crack would have disappeared! Let's hope we do smash Brisbane.

If we are to be considered serious contenders we need to obliterate Brisbane based on their form but so far we have done no such thing to anyone. Make no mistake, if we come out with less than 8 points in the next two weeks we are going to be seriously pushing up hill given we'll be almost as close to full strength as we're likely to get until very late in the season or next year.

 

[Pie eyed]

If you mean we may develop a bad case of post GF victory hangover then sure it's a development season.

 

[PieNSauce]

If you mean we may develop a bad case of post GF victory hangover then sure it's a development season.

Not sure what you mean by that but it's clear that we're not travelling anywhere near as well as we all expected. As I said, I'm still hopeful given that the core of our best players are still or will soon be available excluding Ball but you have to be realistic and recognise that it was never going to be easy with an almost complete new coaching panel, a couple of quality retirements and a truckload of injuries. You also have to remember that even getting your best players on the park guarantees you nothing until they run into form as we found out rather painfully late last season.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Very good point from PieNsauce regarding getting experienced players back from injury. It's one thing to have them back and another to have them back and in form.

 

[Gone Critical]

Not sure what you mean by that but it's clear that we're not travelling anywhere near as well as we all expected. As I said, I'm still hopeful given that the core of our best players are still or will soon be available excluding Ball but you have to be realistic and recognise that it was never going to be easy with an almost complete new coaching panel, a couple of quality retirements and a truckload of injuries. You also have to remember that even getting your best players on the park guarantees you nothing until they run into form as we found out rather painfully late last season.

Thanks for the thread. While I understand you are not writing 2012 off I am much more positive. I am not terribly worried we haven't hit top form yet as I suspect its part of the overall strategy. Ball is a big loss but all of Sidey, Beams, Wellingham and Blair are stepping up this year and Thomas Pendles and Swan provide the silk so there is a lot to like about the engine room.

There are also other areas where we can see significant improvements from our 2011 list v losses from 2011. These are


Players who had no role 1n 2011 but will be best 22 2012

Marty Clarke
Nathan Brown


Established players who had compromised 2011 for various reasons so will be better in 2012

Heath Shaw
Darren Jolly
Chris Dawes
Alan Didak
Nick Maxwell

Developing players who are established but have plenty of scope to improve in 2012

Steele Sidebottom
Dayne Beams
Sharrod Wellingham
Jarryd Blair
Alex Fasalo (not as established as others in this group)

Developing players who had little role in 2011 but will be meaningful contributers in 2012

Ben Sinclair
Lachie Keeffe
Cam Wood
Goldsack (prob wrong group)

Depth players who are yet to contribute much but may play a role in 2012 (don't expect much from this group)

Luke Rounds
Tom Young
Simon Buckley

Players who were significant in 2011 but are gone for 2012

Luke Ball
Andrew Krakouer
Leon Davis
Ben Johnson
Leigh Brown

Older players whos 2012 output probably wont match 2011

Chris Tarrant

Players who for injury reasons had little input to either year

Brent Macaffer

The most important group

Big output players from 2011 who we can reasonably expect to give us something similar in 2012

The stars
Travis Cloke
Pendles
Dane Swan
Dale Thomas
Ben Reid

The solids
Alan Toovey
Harry O'Brien

Youngsters who could bob up a bit in 2012
Ugle
Seedsman
Paine

Youngsters who are development in 2012, anything else would be a bonus
Elliot
Witts
Mooney
Ceglar
Hartley
Yagmoor
J Thomas etc

Sorry this is longwinded but the point I am making is we were with Geelong the dominant list of 2011. We have lost a gem in Ball and 3 very solid contributors in Krak, Davis and Jonno. Leigh Brown circa 2010 was a loss , circa 2011 not really.

To me these losses are potentially offset by the gains and improvements in the 12 best 22 players I have listed in the 1st 3 groups. If we get better output from these 12 overall in 2012 and the stars and solids stay true we are easily top 4 and I think flag favorites.

Caff isn't a loss from 2011 because he didn't have a role. Tarrant is a loss but offset to a degree but his potential for return and Keeffe.

I think it is unlikely we will miss top 4. I backed us last week at $3.30 for top 4 and you can still get $3.00+ this week. Last week Collingwoods dividend was more than 9x the dividend on offer for Carlton or the WCE for the same bet, thats crazy

People have jumped off us way too early. 2012 is a year of contention not transition or development

 

[PieNSauce]

Good post GC. I hope you realise that this really started as a bit of a hypothetical albeit that at this point the injury rate is still looking a bit nasty. I have to admit, having seen us through the 60's, 70's and 80's I am never overly optimistic when it comes to footy. Too many seasons of high expectation with poor return or just falling short I guess.

Let's be honest here, our list is full of players who most clubs would love to take off us but you cannot deny the effect of such monumental change. From last year you can count Leon, Browny, Ball, Johnno and Krak as immediate losses. On top of that, we have had a truckload of short term injuries to guys like Reid, Thomas, Shaw etc. We have only just managed to get Brown back and you can't discount the loss of Caff too much when you look back at his form in 2010. Consider in additional to all of that the fact that excluding Bucks, we have only one of our 2011 coaching staff still at the club and you start to realise that this season was always and is going to be a massive challenge. If we make the 4 then I think Bucks will deserve a bronze statue outside the Westpac centre.

That may all sound very negative but in reality I'm pretty happy with where we are whilst I'm not stupid enough to ignore the fact that the challenge is enormous and will IMO require a pretty big turnaround in both our fortunes and our efforts if we are to be a contender when the real stuff gets underway at the pointy end. By the same token, if we can get through the rest of the season with only limited injuries, and a few blokes like Thomas, Harry, Dawes and Maxy can return to their best then I am confident that there is no other side that will go with us. It's all the "ifs" in there that are starting to bother me but I certainly hope I'm wrong.

 

[PieNSauce]

Bumped by request!

As I've said elsewhere, this season is looking surprisingly similar to our 2010 development season with the inclusion of guys like Sinclair and Marley Williams and the blooding of a few other youngsters. It's pleasing to see in the end that we are probably performing above most people's expectations despite what could be the worst run of season ending injuries ever. Losing Lachie Keefe is a big blow given that one would have been forgiven for seeing him as our most successful "development" player of the season so far but Sinclair continues to improve and the debut by Marley Williams was extremely promising. My guess is that we'll see Elliott given a bit more time this week and I doubt that he will dissappoint.

In the end, regardless of how we cope with our injury toll this year, I suspect that by season's end we will have unearthed at least 2 or 3 young guns who will add to our depth going forward. I still hold out hope that by late in the season we will be back to as near as we can to full strength although with every week that passes and every new injury sustained I have to say that's starting to look overly optimistic.

Fingers Crossed.

 

[Markfs]

If you mean that we should give up the premiership and develop the kids then I dont agree with until you cant mathematically reach the finals..

but I would say that we're have a great season in developing the players. We've unearthed a few players, we've found new positions for guys like Goldsack, the players under 100 games are continuing to improve, and there's a long list of them.

One thing that I totally disagree with is the type of "development" that Melbourne tried in the last few years where they gave up on winning, with some crazy idea of just getting games into young players. It makes them soft and uncompetitive.

I'm sure that every Pie fan would prefer less injuries, but the opportunities provided to so-called b-graders and the fringe players has been fantastic. It will mean that we will have a better team next year.

 

[blaze036]

Has losing ball been good for us on field? interesting question, dont let ur man-love for luke ball get in the way!

Hope to see elliot and mooney do something in the seniors this year, witts next year, pretty exciting to see we still have some young talent. Fingers crossed we get some SERIOUS talent and develop it extreamly well like we normally do this superdraft

 

[MarkT2]

Has losing ball been good for us on field?

If we win the flag - yes. If we fall a bit short - no.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I think the area we need real development is in the ruck.

I'm hoping there is ssome way of fast tracking Witts and Ceglar since it seems Wood is done after this year.

Unless they're going to hunt down one of Giles, Jamar or Warnock.

 

[Pie eyed]

I think the area we need real development is in the ruck.

I'm hoping there is ssome way of fast tracking Witts and Ceglar since it seems Wood is done after this year.

Unless they're going to hunt down one of Giles, Jamar or Warnock.

I would love to see a splendid mullet get the nod in Maric, though I'm sure he's tooken.

 

[PieNSauce]

If you mean that we should give up the premiership and develop the kids then I dont agree with until you cant mathematically reach the finals..

but I would say that we're have a great season in developing the players. We've unearthed a few players, we've found new positions for guys like Goldsack, the players under 100 games are continuing to improve, and there's a long list of them.

One thing that I totally disagree with is the type of "development" that Melbourne tried in the last few years where they gave up on winning, with some crazy idea of just getting games into young players. It makes them soft and uncompetitive.

I'm sure that every Pie fan would prefer less injuries, but the opportunities provided to so-called b-graders and the fringe players has been fantastic. It will mean that we will have a better team next year.

Don't read things that are not there. There is absolutely no suggestion that we should even consider abandoning premiership aspirations which is why I made reference to our 2010 development year. In 2010 we developed what is now regarded as some seriously good talent. I actually believe we are every chance to repeat the dose with guys like Sinclair, Williams and one or two others. Of course it's way too soon to know but the exodus of long serving senior players over the last few years provides a fairly major challenge. One which we've met before and which I'm hoping we'll match this year. That we have managed to win all but 2 games this year in the circumstances should be regarded as extraordinary.

 

[Number 10]

Soo, witts, Hartley and mooney to grow a mullet?

 

[mattys123]

Soo, witts, Hartley and mooney to grow a mullet?

It seems that Witts has already been told to grow one, judging by this pre season picture;

 

[Temploar]

It seems that Witts has already been told to grow one, judging by this pre season picture;

Folau looks genuinely intimidated. Mancrush on witts now <3

 

[lgarth80]

My view of development is more succession planning.

Do we have every position effectively "successioned"? If not, what do we need to do to get there?

I'd suggest this is the responsibility of our development coaches, using the template from the head coach and director of football. But let's be honest, I'm sure Buckley just xeroxed a lot of what Mick Malthouse implemented here, it was a fantastic model for the development of young players with great "teammanship" (Mick's favourite word)

We succession planned the coach move.
We are succession planning the recruiting staff and maybe Geoff Walsh
Hopefully Eddie is succession planning himself. He really needs to get Kelly on the board as soon as possible to make the handover within the next few years.

Maxwell to Pendlebury looks sure to happen, though possibly even via Luke Ball who is one of the best footy men in the business, respected by everyone, and is a brilliant media operator. A guy who put his balls on the line to get to Collingwood, and I reckon is almost more loved for how he got to Collingwood than players are for staying at the club.

Defence we look OK. Reid/Brown are young, and we have Keeffe in the wings. We have youth on our side with Clarke/O'Brien/Toovey. Maxwell's role is the one we need to find in the future. I'd think Toovey could play it at a pinch in 2-3 years, and we bring in a replacement for 2V off half back.

Midfield we look ominous. Beams-Sidebottom-Pendlebury-Thomas. Bang! No harm in continuing to add bits on the side of this great foursome for a decade to come, but keeping these guys together, motivated and fit will lead to more sustained success at our footy club. We are so fortunate.

Rucks we have a plan in place. No one could say we are leaving a stone unturned to improve this area. We have Jolly, a great number two who appears happy to play that role and not leave for 'opportunity'. Witts and Ceglar as well as Gault long term projects who cost us very little.

Forwards is probably the area of most concern. The great thing is that Cloke-Dawes still looks like it has 3 years of top quality play in them, before the next generation of Paine needs to take full toll. I like Paine, he has real presence. Still it would make me feel a lot better if we had another few tall forwards in the pipeline. Small forwards have been selected as part of our early picks in Fasolo and Elliott, and with Sinclair also there, we may have some assistance. Goldsack's move forward has meant that Macaffer will have to earn his spot. Krakouer might not get in so easily either, with the other smalls doing a good job in his absence.

Plainly in order to stay up the top, we need to continue to pass on from the older to the younger the joy and exhilaration of succeeding in the black and white jumper. To pass on the tough footy wins games mindset that Mick brought in - intensity will win you games when the other team is not switched on. To pass on the thinking that you take one for the team (contracts etc) and where you sacrifice a little so we can do trades like the Jolly-Ball which proved crucial in 2010.

Every year from here we must go for the flag, but every year we need to also develop the underlings. The best sides do this simultaneously, and with our impressive off-field budget, and list maturity for their current age, I think we are well placed to have a decade of dominance.

So Clokey, don't bugger it up, stick around and be seen as better than Jonathan Brown in 7 years time!

 

[jonbe54]

All good except for 'tough footy wins that Mick brought in' this has always been part of the Collingwood Football Club mindset - read your club history - the machine that won our 4pete were certainly not the most talented group going around as a whole but they were certainly the toughest, hardest fighting and most desperate. 1958 stands out also with Melbourne already sitting on 3 consecutive flags and tearing the season up our 4pete was under direct and serious threat, but the club lifted themselves by the bootstraps and won that flag on sheer heart and determination. Let us not forget Tommy Hafey, came to the Pies when they were a rabble after having finished bottom of the ladder the previous year and lifted an ordinary team to the GF.

No m8 Mick wasn't responsible for teaching us how to win tough footy games it's part of the club ethos, side by side means just exactly that at this club, always has and always will.

 

[lgarth80]

No m8 Mick wasn't responsible for teaching us how to win tough footy games it's part of the club ethos, side by side means just exactly that at this club, always has and always will.

Yes I should have said he brought it back after it went missing for a decade.

I agree backs to the wall is how it was in the past, and how it always needs to be.

It is strange to have a side full of talent now, because so often the Pies have put together average talent sides laded with heart that have over achieved, sometimes to cop the inevitable sting of a GF defeat to a better rested and prepared rival.

I guess the losses that sting the most are the ones where we should have been advantaged and failed to take these chances. 1966, 1970, 1977, 2003. Three of these were harrowing to the extreme, the other a brutal reality check.

Anyway, back to the discussion on succession planning.

 

[jonbe54]

Yes I should have said he brought it back after it went missing for a decade.

I agree backs to the wall is how it was in the past, and how it always needs to be.

It is strange to have a side full of talent now, because so often the Pies have put together average talent sides laded with heart that have over achieved, sometimes to cop the inevitable sting of a GF defeat to a better rested and prepared rival.

I guess the losses that sting the most are the ones where we should have been advantaged and failed to take these chances. 1966, 1970, 1977, 2003. Three of these were harrowing to the extreme, the other a brutal reality check.

Anyway, back to the discussion on succession planning.

NP m8 I'll carry the scars of '70 to my grave and the screams of 'HARMES" still echo dolefully in the back of my skull somewhere lol.

As for succession planning I think this is what Eddie is all about, he seems genuinely interested in 'future proofing' the club as witnessed by the move to the optus center and negotiating for the old olympic park stadium to give us the club and training facilities for the boys to excell.