Analysis Do we have depth outside our best 22?

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

Not really, bottom 6 is pretty bad right now.

 

[Johnny Cattery]

We've had a lot of injuries this year, to players who'd be in the 22 and other who are in the 22-30 bracket yet we are still fielding a structurally sound strong team. The postives is that we got to see which of the younger players would stand up and we found that Thurlow, Gregson, Bews and to a lesser extent Lang would. Which makes us a better team than we were 6 weeks ago as we having more players coming back from injury.

10lana, this is really the wrong thread but i don't know where else to put this question. I have been reading your analysis of the clearances structure and have a query about our general playI would like your opinion on.

My sense is that when we play against Sydney, we overuse "hit and spin" to engage the tackler. That works in the rest of Australia where the tackling is judged by Australian rules standards, but not so well in Sydney where there is a closer and more knowledgeable engagement with rugby league, in which the tactic is routine for every hit-up. Kieran Jack's dad could tackle a giraffe and bring it down.

What I would like to know is whether you and others think we are over using this tactic because players are panicking and thinking "if i just avoid this tackler without taking him out Chris Scott will think I am weak/not doing my job" or whether it comes from them making bad choices in the moment (Caddy in particular seems to charge first, ask questions about the space later). Although now I write that, i also think that Sydney were just incredibly good at being on their man. We were beaten again and again when our tackler focused on the player with the ball and ignored the receiver (again, very much a rugby league move), leaving us playing catchup with numbers.

 

[dazbroncos]

We do, and its getting tested. Really tested.

The upside is that earlier in the year people were pushing for some list rotation and be people to get games. Well here it is.

Lets hope they are not the same ones whinging with the losses and challenges that it brings.

Go Catters

 

[Cataholic]

We do, and its getting tested. Really tested.

The upside is that earlier in the year people were pushing for some list rotation and be people to get games. Well here it is.

Lets hope they are not the same ones whinging with the losses and challenges that it brings.

Go Catters

Don't be silly Daz........the kids are going to come in with limitless stamina, skills beyond their experience and just the pre-season to tear the games apart.

Aren't they?

 

[Lana]

10lana, this is really the wrong thread but i don't know where else to put this question. I have been reading your analysis of the clearances structure and have a query about our general playI would like your opinion on.

My sense is that when we play against Sydney, we overuse "hit and spin" to engage the tackler. That works in the rest of Australia where the tackling is judged by Australian rules standards, but not so well in Sydney where there is a closer and more knowledgeable engagement with rugby league, in which the tactic is routine for every hit-up. Kieran Jack's dad could tackle a giraffe and bring it down.

What I would like to know is whether you and others think we are over using this tactic because players are panicking and thinking "if i just avoid this tackler without taking him out Chris Scott will think I am weak/not doing my job" or whether it comes from them making bad choices in the moment (Caddy in particular seems to charge first, ask questions about the space later). Although now I write that, i also think that Sydney were just incredibly good at being on their man. We were beaten again and again when our tackler focused on the player with the ball and ignored the receiver (again, very much a rugby league move), leaving us playing catchup with numbers.

I would admit that I haven't been focusing too much on our tackling technique or our players ability to break at tackle. But this is something that really hurt us in the the finals game against Hawthorn, our tackles just weren't sticking and an ineffective tackle can be as bad as a turnover as it can leave you completely open. In the second half against Sydney there were a few plays where we were provide good pressure and we'd tackle 3-4 Sydney players in a row but they'd be able to pass it to the next guy(something that we were really good at during our run.) and we weren't getting the reward our effort deserved. I can't say if its a flaw in our tackling techneque, I'll pay some more attention to it in the next few weeks and get back to you on it.

On our ability to break tackles, even Selwood isn't doing it at the moment, I think it's more about decsion making(from both the guy being tackled and his teammates) and having support from a teamate, if a player can execute a handball a fraction faster, they can get the ball away before the tackle actually sticks. They might do this because their mind is faster then the players around them or that there teamate gets into a good spot to recieve. IMO Its rare that a player breaks a tackle due to raw strength, when it happens its probably because the tackler messed up.

That being said there are a few ways to create space (and I probably forgetting a few) and some players seem to be able to keep composure with less space thne others. The "hit and spin" as you called it is just away to buy a little time to get rid of it as it makes the player harder to tackle. Players don't seem to use the fend off as much as they did a few years back, I guess it has lost its novelty. Having a teamate use their body to block can buy some space, we don't seem to do this a lot. Caddy has never been a guy who gets clear from stoppages with finesse, even in his U18 footage he has always been a very physical player. I have no problem when Caddy does it, its good to have one guy who does it as it can create space(in the same way a dummy lead from a third tall can create space for the key forward) for the next guy, but it would be an issue if everyone charged head first into a couple of players.

We went with Sydney in the first half, on the inside and outside. In the second half they overwhelmed us in both reguards and our gameplan broke down. I don't think there is much to take from the second half as its just an example of a things we don't want to do. It reminded me of how we played against North. I can't image Scott will spend too much time looking at those tapes.

 

[Teriyakicat]

I would admit that I haven't been focusing too much on our tackling technique or our players ability to break at tackle. But this is something that really hurt us in the the finals game against Hawthorn, our tackles just weren't sticking and an ineffective tackle can be as bad as a turnover as it can leave you completely open. In the second half against Sydney there were a few plays where we were provide good pressure and we'd tackle 3-4 Sydney players in a row but they'd be able to pass it to the next guy(something that we were really good at during our run.) and we weren't getting the reward our effort deserved. I can't say if its a flaw in our tackling techneque, I'll pay some more attention to it in the next few weeks and get back to you on it.

On our ability to break tackles, even Selwood isn't doing it at the moment, I think it's more about decsion making(from both the guy being tackled and his teammates) and having support from a teamate, if a player can execute a handball a fraction faster, they can get the ball away before the tackle actually sticks. They might do this because their mind is faster then the players around them or that there teamate gets into a good spot to recieve. IMO Its rare that a player breaks a tackle due to raw strength, when it happens its probably because the tackler messed up.

That being said there are a few ways to create space (and I probably forgetting a few) and some players seem to be able to keep composure with less space thne others. The "hit and spin" as you called it is just away to buy a little time to get rid of it as it makes the player harder to tackle. Players don't seem to use the fend off as much as they did a few years back, I guess it has lost its novelty. Having a teamate use their body to block can buy some space, we don't seem to do this a lot. Caddy has never been a guy who gets clear from stoppages with finesse, even in his U18 footage he has always been a very physical player. I have no problem when Caddy does it, its good to have one guy who does it as it can create space(in the same way a dummy lead from a third tall can create space for the key forward) for the next guy, but it would be an issue if everyone charged head first into a couple of players.

We went with Sydney in the first half, on the inside and outside. In the second half they overwhelmed us in both reguards and our gameplan broke down. I don't think there is much to take from the second half as its just an example of a things we don't want to do. It reminded me of how we played against North. I can't image Scott will spend too much time looking at those tapes.

10lana, perhaps the fend off is been used less because tacklers are now tackling lower- pinning the arms, going for the hips, etc., so the tackler appears to have become 6" shorter. The "tacklee", in using the fend off, becomes more likely to push someone in the face, thus giving away the free.

 

[Lana]

10lana, perhaps the fend off is been used less because tacklers are now tackling lower- pinning the arms, going for the hips, etc., so the tackler appears to have become 6" shorter. The "tacklee", in using the fend off, becomes more likely to push someone in the face, thus giving away the free.

It's probably one of those things that works a lot better when the person you use it on isn't expecting it. I remember when Ablett started using it, and then a lot of players started using it. Players have been trained how to deal with it and so its now less effective so players don't use it anymore.

 

[Teriyakicat]

It's probably one of those things that works a lot better when the person you use it on isn't expecting it. I remember when Ablett started using it, and then a lot of players started using it. Players have been trained how to deal with it and so its now less effective so players don't use it anymore.

That's a good point. And there are players who still try to do it quite often but get caught- so they just need to learn a bit quicker and be a bit more random with when they fend off and when they pass off, I guess.

 

[meto]

LTI's have us a bit to thin imo hope the club sees the non availability issue isn't a helpful one.

 

[Johnny Cattery]

I would admit that I haven't been focusing too much on our tackling technique or our players ability to break at tackle. But this is something that really hurt us in the the finals game against Hawthorn, our tackles just weren't sticking and an ineffective tackle can be as bad as a turnover as it can leave you completely open. In the second half against Sydney there were a few plays where we were provide good pressure and we'd tackle 3-4 Sydney players in a row but they'd be able to pass it to the next guy(something that we were really good at during our run.) and we weren't getting the reward our effort deserved. I can't say if its a flaw in our tackling techneque, I'll pay some more attention to it in the next few weeks and get back to you on it.

On our ability to break tackles, even Selwood isn't doing it at the moment, I think it's more about decsion making(from both the guy being tackled and his teammates) and having support from a teamate, if a player can execute a handball a fraction faster, they can get the ball away before the tackle actually sticks. They might do this because their mind is faster then the players around them or that there teamate gets into a good spot to recieve. IMO Its rare that a player breaks a tackle due to raw strength, when it happens its probably because the tackler messed up.

That being said there are a few ways to create space (and I probably forgetting a few) and some players seem to be able to keep composure with less space thne others. The "hit and spin" as you called it is just away to buy a little time to get rid of it as it makes the player harder to tackle. Players don't seem to use the fend off as much as they did a few years back, I guess it has lost its novelty. Having a teamate use their body to block can buy some space, we don't seem to do this a lot. Caddy has never been a guy who gets clear from stoppages with finesse, even in his U18 footage he has always been a very physical player. I have no problem when Caddy does it, its good to have one guy who does it as it can create space(in the same way a dummy lead from a third tall can create space for the key forward) for the next guy, but it would be an issue if everyone charged head first into a couple of players.

We went with Sydney in the first half, on the inside and outside. In the second half they overwhelmed us in both reguards and our gameplan broke down. I don't think there is much to take from the second half as its just an example of a things we don't want to do. It reminded me of how we played against North. I can't image Scott will spend too much time looking at those tapes.

Great points - thank you for the long reply, and agree totally that Sydney busted away after we had a chain of tackles but could not put the player on the ground. i suspect that cost us in the fourth quarter. I noticed this week we did a lot of grabbing one arm to prevent the release, when we were tackling and that seemed more effective. But that said, take your later point that players adjust and Sydney were just stronger with the ball than Carlton were, so it is hard to judge whether there was a genuine change from last week to this or whether it was just that the things we tried came off instead of being broken up by Sydney's better tackling. I also reckon Caddy had a bit more finesse in his game, being prepared to distribute and perhaps running better lines, last night. Or, Carlton were really bad?

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Didn't watch the whole VFL game, but none of our listed players (and there weren't many) were exactly bashing the door down for senior selection, to put it mildly. Kolodjashnij, Walker, Cockatoo and I suppose Jansen next in line (in that order) of the guys playing at the moment and it's a struggle to even justify the ones after Walker.

 

[meto]

Didn't watch the whole VFL game, but none of our listed players (and there weren't many) were exactly bashing the door down for senior selection, to put it mildly. Kolodjashnij, Walker, Cockatoo and I suppose Jansen next in line (in that order) of the guys playing at the moment and it's a struggle to even justify the ones after Walker.

Even the first two didn't particularly excite me, I'm a little worried we could cause our own downfall having all these long term injured players, some or most have hardly played.
If we get injuries we have no backup compared to say the Hawks have, this was mentioned by the 7 commentators even they have noticed how thin our list is.

 

[Vdubs]

Even the first two didn't particularly excite me, I'm a little worried we could cause our own downfall having all these long term injured players, some and most have hardly played.
If we get injuries we have no backup compared to say the Hawks have, this was mentioned by the 7 commentators even they have noticed how thin our list is.

True. We've hung onto Menzel, Cowan, Vardy, (HMc, Simpson) out of loyalty and not wanting other teams to nab their talent just in case they come good. Very noble, but very costly as far as the depth issue.
Delaney and HMc were strange selections- not often does a team select players that are already known to everybody to be damaged goods.
BUT there is the remote chance that we will see Cowan emerge this year from a hammy, but Menzel??, Vardy?? I always thought or hoped Menzel could have been rookied.
Delaney is no cost as a rookie.
Blease is a 1-year only at this stage.
HMc is almost certainly delisted later this year.
Ditto Simpson- that one does upset me- really wanted him to make it.
So what becomes of Menzel/Vardy end season?
Along with Lonergan, Boris, Kelly.
And will Bartel be able to get himself up again , fit enough to compete this year?
If we are truly rebuilding, many of these "concerns" are non-issues.
We have a really interesting list, but until we've played WCE, Crows, Port, GWS and Dogs, we probably don't really know where we are heading this year.
We seem good enough to compete with and beat the middle tier teams, but some way off the upper echelon teams; those other teams will test our depth and help us realise where we are heading over the next 2 months.
NM has its depth tested at present with Brown, Dal Santo, Wells, Swallow all out; GC is severely afflicted, yet this time last year, they were flying. The curse of injuries is not unique to us, but we do have a lot to deal with.

 

[meto]

True. We've hung onto Menzel, Cowan, Vardy, (HMc, Simpson) out of loyalty and not wanting other teams to nab their talent just in case they come good. Very noble, but very costly as far as the depth issue.
Delaney and HMc were strange selections- not often does a team select players that are already known to everybody to be damaged goods.
BUT there is the remote chance that we will see Cowan emerge this year from a hammy, but Menzel??, Vardy?? I always thought or hoped Menzel could have been rookied.
Delaney is no cost as a rookie.
Blease is a 1-year only at this stage.
HMc is almost certainly delisted later this year.
Ditto Simpson- that one does upset me- really wanted him to make it.
So what becomes of Menzel/Vardy end season?
Along with Lonergan, Boris, Kelly.
And will Bartel be able to get himself up again , fit enough to compete this year?
If we are truly rebuilding, many of these "concerns" are non-issues.
We have a really interesting list, but until we've played WCE, Crows, Port, GWS and Dogs, we probably don't really know where we are heading this year.
We seem good enough to compete with and beat the middle tier teams, but some way off the upper echelon teams; those other teams will test our depth and help us realise where we are heading over the next 2 months.
NM has its depth tested at present with Brown, Dal Santo, Wells, Swallow all out; GC is severely afflicted, yet this time last year, they were flying. The curse of injuries is not unique to us, but we do have a lot to deal with.

I was a bit jealous when the TV commentary mentioned that Litherland can't get a game at Hawthorn, I mean hey! I wouldn't mind if we gave him a try.
Then I think of all these so-called champions we have who don't play,.. and actually have done almost nothing anyway.
We need a big cleanout and quickly. Lonergan Boris Kelly and Bartell at least play, they're out there and they are long term proven champs, I'm not complaining about them.
It's McCarthy, Menzel, Vardy, Cowan HMac, etc, etc, they got to go!

 

[CatsDoItBetter]

True. We've hung onto Menzel, Cowan, Vardy, (HMc, Simpson) out of loyalty and not wanting other teams to nab their talent just in case they come good. Very noble, but very costly as far as the depth issue.
Delaney and HMc were strange selections- not often does a team select players that are already known to everybody to be damaged goods.
BUT there is the remote chance that we will see Cowan emerge this year from a hammy, but Menzel??, Vardy?? I always thought or hoped Menzel could have been rookied.
Delaney is no cost as a rookie.
Blease is a 1-year only at this stage.
HMc is almost certainly delisted later this year.
Ditto Simpson- that one does upset me- really wanted him to make it.
So what becomes of Menzel/Vardy end season?
Along with Lonergan, Boris, Kelly.
And will Bartel be able to get himself up again , fit enough to compete this year?
If we are truly rebuilding, many of these "concerns" are non-issues.
We have a really interesting list, but until we've played WCE, Crows, Port, GWS and Dogs, we probably don't really know where we are heading this year.
We seem good enough to compete with and beat the middle tier teams, but some way off the upper echelon teams; those other teams will test our depth and help us realise where we are heading over the next 2 months.
NM has its depth tested at present with Brown, Dal Santo, Wells, Swallow all out; GC is severely afflicted, yet this time last year, they were flying. The curse of injuries is not unique to us, but we do have a lot to deal with.

I can't imagine we will get rid of Vardy, Hmac and Simpson unless we get another ruck or two.

 

[manboob]

I can't imagine we will get rid of Vardy, Hmac and Simpson unless we get another ruck or two.

None of them have done anything so I can see us cutting them. Another injury and they are done that's 100% sure.

 

[Cataholic]

I can't imagine we will get rid of Vardy, Hmac and Simpson unless we get another ruck or two.

Maybe they're happy to concede a genuine ruckman for two fleet-footed 200cm guys in Stanley and Blitz and rely on agility and speed instead.

Could be a bold innovation.

 

[manboob]

After today Minson is for the taking.

 

[Cataholic]

After today Minson is for the taking.

How old is he?

 

[manboob]

How old is he?

He just turned 30 (I didn't think he was that old)... probably of more interest to a club who think they are challengers - I guess he'll end up at the bombers with their drafting policy of late.

 

[Cataholic]

He just turned 30 (I didn't think he was that old)... probably of more interest to a club who think they are challengers - I guess he'll end up at the bombers with their drafting policy of late.

I had a feeling he was getting on......in footy terms at least.

He might get a good holiday after todays brain fade too.

 

[CatsDoItBetter]

Maybe they're happy to concede a genuine ruckman for two fleet-footed 200cm guys in Stanley and Blitz and rely on agility and speed instead.

Could be a bold innovation.

Happy with how those two are going but considering how stretched we've been come finals time the last few years we need to have backups.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Guys like Smedts, Horlin-Smith, Vardy (late in), Murdoch, Bews/Ruggles, One of the KPD players, Gregson (out atm), Lang (late in). Then Menegola and S.Selwood injured. Finally there is some depth in this club. Guys getting picked on form not by merely being lucky enough to be fit.

I guess this highlights what happens when players like Menzel and McCarthy are able to play, we can omit poorly performing players and passengers.

 

[STP18]

Yep, having all of Menzel, Vardy, McCarthy, Cowan and up until recently McIntosh all basically unavailable for years on end meant any general 1-2 week injuries to guys in the 22 hurt us a lot more than it should have. The fact we're actually managing players 6 weeks into the year is in stark contrast to what we've seen the last few years.