Society/Culture Do you belive in Non Binary as a gender?

Do you belive in Non Binary as a gender?

  • Yes , you can be not a male or a female

    Votes: 12 36.4%
  • No, your either a Man or a Women

    Votes: 21 63.6%

  • Total voters
    33

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Gethelred

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The term non-binary means someone whose gender is not exclusively female or male, or neither.

Is the argument that gender can be whatever a person chooses? So a gender of cat should be respected.

Or is there a range, or an evolving list of genders that might be considered valid? So a gender of cat might be thought of as silly.
... you're welcome to think what you like about someone's gender. You can have as little to do with them as you please, if their silliness bothers you. Who - and let's be specific, mind - is policing your thoughts or your association, Sorted?

It's not silly to them, though. If it makes them feel better, how does their gender affect you?
 

sorted

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... you're welcome to think what you like about someone's gender. You can have as little to do with them as you please, if their silliness bothers you. Who - and let's be specific, mind - is policing your thoughts or your association, Sorted?

It's not silly to them, though. If it makes them feel better, how does their gender affect you?

But you didn't address my questions. Were they unreasonable?
 

Gethelred

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But you didn't address my questions. Were they unreasonable?
... just to be clear, are you asking me what I think?

I think broadly speaking, there is a spectrum of gender identity, with male, female, and non-binary being positions on that spectrum. I would've thought - from my response - that this was something that could be gathered, but seeing as there is not generally sufficient specificity of meaning let's be clear.

All genders - as identities - are equally valid or invalid, because they're social constructions borne of an individual's self conception within their specific cultural settings and their experiences.

Now that I've answered your questions, do you think you could answer mine?
Who - and let's be specific, mind - is policing your thoughts or your association, Sorted?

If it makes them feel better, how does their gender affect you?
 

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sorted

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... just to be clear, are you asking me what I think?

I think broadly speaking, there is a spectrum of gender identity, with male, female, and non-binary being positions on that spectrum. I would've thought - from my response - that this was something that could be gathered, but seeing as there is not generally sufficient specificity of meaning let's be clear.

All genders - as identities - are equally valid or invalid, because they're social constructions borne of an individual's self conception within their specific cultural settings and their experiences.

You seem to be having an each way bet between i) a spectrum of gender identity being somewhere between male and female, or ii) that anything can be valid - such as cat. Which is it?

Now that I've answered your questions, do you think you could answer mine?

Sure.

I'm not policing anyone's thoughts or association. You could claim that someone identifying as a cat (or a good friend of mine - the devil) then it doesn't affect you. At what point do you draw the line for someone you care about and say their beliefs are delusional and not enabling for their life success?

And how does their socially constructed self-identification interact with the more objective reality of society? Should a person identifying as a cat be able to get treatment at a vet? That could be dismissed as a fringe example but what about a trans individual wanting to get her balls waxed in a female salon?
 

Gethelred

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You seem to be having an each way bet between i) a spectrum of gender identity being somewhere between male and female, or ii) that anything can be valid - such as cat. Which is it?
Never said the spectrum was from male to female. I said this:
I think broadly speaking, there is a spectrum of gender identity, with male, female, and non-binary being positions on that spectrum.
... and I try to be rather precise when I converse on the SRP.

Sure.

I'm not policing anyone's thoughts or association.
Just a note: I asked you who was policing your thoughts, as they pertain to thinking someone whose gender is a cat is a bit silly.
You could claim that someone identifying as a cat (or a good friend of mine - the devil) then it doesn't affect you. At what point do you draw the line for someone you care about and say their beliefs are delusional and not enabling for their life success?

And how does their socially constructed self-identification interact with the more objective reality of society? Should a person identifying as a cat be able to get treatment at a vet? That could be dismissed as a fringe example...
Are they not free to define what success looks like to them?

Sweet Jesus found, in another thread, a woman who he perceived as identifying as a cat. On one hand, it was quite clearly a kink thing; she introduced her partner to her specific parts of her BDSM lifestyle. On the other hand, her job was pretending to be a cat, she had a partner who was on board with her proclevities, and she was living in your objective world having found for herself a niche in which she could be what she wants to be.
... but what about a trans individual wanting to get her balls waxed in a female salon?
Said trans individual would - in all probability - be a good deal more tactful than that, methinks.

Out of interest, how much have you had to do with non-binary people? How much with trans men or women? Because, by and large, trans women are terrified of not passing. I don't want to speak for anyone, but in my experience said trans woman would be rather careful in choosing where they went, whether they accept trans clients.

Considerate is the word, because that is rather how they wish people were to them.
 

Carringbush2010

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And how does their socially constructed self-identification interact with the more objective reality of society?

This is an excellent question, to be honest in my mind at least, it is not a reality. That's not the issue though, so long as the interaction does no harm to society as a whole then move on.

Should a person identifying as a cat be able to get treatment at a vet?

Yeah I'd imagine any vet not wanting to risk a law suit as a result of malpractice, then any person would not be treated by a vet as they would animals.

If there is legal recourse for not treating that person after the fact then that's a societal problem that there should not be an avenue for. Haven't seen anything of this yet.

That could be dismissed as a fringe example but what about a trans individual wanting to get her balls waxed in a female salon?

Again, any salon that caters only for biological females worth their salt would not be offering services to someone who has male genitalia.

And again if there is / were legal recourse for not being offered those services after the fact then that's a societal problem that there should not be an avenue for. Haven't seen anything of this yet.
 

Seeds

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This guy gets it.



Derp.

Social constructs exist mate. Cultures, races, genders, money and religions exist. Their existence is just socially constructed, as opposed to things that exist independent of social construction (like for example, gravity).
race, culture, money and religion all have a socially objective definition.

gender doesnt seem to. Its not the same. It doesnt seem to have a specific definition at all meaning in doesnt actually exist in any context.
 

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Apparently it's humanity departments at Universities.


Even if that were actually true... that's part of our society.


You say that..
But you don't mean it.

That's a glib talking point that's thrown around a lot, but isn't true.


Sure, wouldn't it be amazing to live in a world where no one is judged on aspects of their life that have no negative impact on others.

But it isn't reality.
In fact, even in this thread... non-binary people are being identified and judged as a collective.
There's even multiple threads across BF talking about this individual in particular. And applying their condition to an identified group, and then applying problems that may arise from that identified group being part of other identified groups.

Sociology is pretty dodgy
 

Lethality

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This all reminds me of back when women wanted a title that wouldn't label them as married or unmarried.

Every oldie was freaking out like it was the end of the world. Feminism was gonna destroy society!

It would have been more feminist to have Mrs not mean married or unmarried, rather than have a separate title.
 

Malifice

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race, culture, money and religion all have a socially objective definition.

gender doesnt seem to.

If I tell you to 'Be a man,' am I telling you to:

1) Physically grow a penis.
or
2) Act a certain way, according to socially constructed expectations?

The answer is obvious surely?
 

Scotland

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If I tell you to 'Grow a pair,' am I telling you to:

1) Physically grow two testicles.
or
2) Act a certain way, according to socially constructed expectations?

The answer is obvious surely?
 

Malifice

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If I tell you to 'Grow a pair,' am I telling you to:

1) Physically grow two testicles.
or
2) Act a certain way, according to socially constructed expectations?

The answer is obvious surely?

Umm, yeah. The answer is '2'.

I presume you don't go around asking people to somehow physically morph into different sexes (which is both impossible and a weird thing to say). When you say 'grow a pair' you're telling someone to 'Act like a man'; you're not saying 'Hey dude, sprout an actual pair of nuts for me can ya'.

I'm sure you've said exactly this (or similar phrases) many times in the past, asking people to act according to socially constructed expectations of gender. Yet now here you are, denying the social construction of gender.

Its no different to how 'You throw like a girl' or 'that's not very ladylike' is also reinforcing social expectations and constructions of the female gender (in this case negative ones).

For an example:




Gender is socially constructed.
 

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Seeds

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If I tell you to 'Be a man,' am I telling you to:

1) Physically grow a penis.
or
2) Act a certain way, according to socially constructed expectations?

The answer is obvious surely?
So your answer is that gender is defined by social behaviours. the gender man is not a biological outcome but a set of social behaviours? And the gender female is a different set of social behaviours?
 

Seeds

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Umm, yeah. The answer is '2'.

I presume you don't go around asking people to somehow physically morph into different sexes (which is both impossible and a weird thing to say). When you say 'grow a pair' you're telling someone to 'Act like a man'; you're not saying 'Hey dude, sprout an actual pair of nuts for me can ya'.

I'm sure you've said exactly this (or similar phrases) many times in the past, asking people to act according to socially constructed expectations of gender. Yet now here you are, denying the social construction of gender.

Its no different to how 'You throw like a girl' or 'that's not very ladylike' is also reinforcing social expectations and constructions of the female gender (in this case negative ones).

For an example:




Gender is socially constructed.

Ok guess that post answers my question. Do you realise this is an incredibly conservative view you are proposing? feminists for decades have been fighting against the view that being female is about social behaviours. such views have been used to keep women out of the workforce, military and shame women into priortising the kitchen and serving a man.

my feminst wife doesnt see herself as less of a women because she chooses to play football and watch star wars over shopping for nice clothes and watching the kardishans. If you told her she was behaving less like a female she would literally punch you in the face. Being a women is about biology. And that goes beyond just sex organs. its also other physical and mental differences. and yes being a women has also been greatly defined by social constraints. But we can get rid of those contraints and make any behaviour one that women can do and feel no less of a women by doing it. unless ofcourse outdated views that being female is about a set of social behaviours become the norm again. Your views are backwards and need to change.
 

Malifice

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Ok guess that post answers my question. Do you realise this is an incredibly conservative view you are proposing? feminists for decades have been fighting against the view that being female is about social behaviours.

No they haven't. They've been arguing the exact opposite.

Did you even watch the video I posted above?
 

Malifice

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So your answer is that gender is defined by social behaviours. the gender man is not a biological outcome but a set of social behaviours? And the gender female is a different set of social behaviours?

Yes.

As opposed to biological sex 'male' or 'female' or 'intersex', which are biologically determined.
 

Carringbush2010

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If I tell you to 'Be a man,' am I telling you to:

1) Physically grow a penis.
or
2) Act a certain way, according to socially constructed expectations?

The answer is obvious surely?
So your answer is that gender is defined by social behaviours. the gender man is not a biological outcome but a set of social behaviours? And the gender female is a different set of social behaviours?

It's both, gender IS a social construct AND IS a biological definition, unless either of can you link where one or the other or neither exist.
 

Malifice

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It's both, gender IS a social construct AND IS a biological definition, unless either of can you link where one or the other or neither exist.

Gender (the term) generally refers to the social construct, whereas 'biological sex' or just 'sex' refers to the physical/ biological side.

The latter (biology) is only relevant for medical reasons and similar. The former (gender, the social construct) is relevant for all other practical purposes (social interactions, self identity, recognition etc).
 

Chief

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It's both, gender IS a social construct AND IS a biological definition, unless either of can you link where one or the other or neither exist.
So you don't think there is a duality? You disagree with the evidence from people who study this for a job? With trans or neutral people themselves?
 

Carringbush2010

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Umm, yeah. The answer is '2'.

I presume you don't go around asking people to somehow physically morph into different sexes (which is both impossible and a weird thing to say). When you say 'grow a pair' you're telling someone to 'Act like a man'; you're not saying 'Hey dude, sprout an actual pair of nuts for me can ya'.

I'm sure you've said exactly this (or similar phrases) many times in the past, asking people to act according to socially constructed expectations of gender. Yet now here you are, denying the social construction of gender.

Its no different to how 'You throw like a girl' or 'that's not very ladylike' is also reinforcing social expectations and constructions of the female gender (in this case negative ones).

For an example:




Gender is socially constructed.


To broaden, this sort of 'language' is frowned upon and demonised.

'That's unlady like' 'Throw like a girl' 'Man up' 'Grow a pair'

If you look at these terms they define what are socially constructed expectations, for example 'throw like a girl' implies that males are physically stronger. By and large that is very true yet the term is seen as offensive.

Why? Because there's a minority that don't want the female viewed as physically weaker, even though there is no way of avoiding that fact. So we must not mention it.

Same with 'man up', in this day and age it's immediately viewed as some sort of dangerous negative, the noise is never about what it should mean to 'man up' like don't shirk your responsibilities, admit your faults and mistakes, provide guidance where you're required to among other desired traits.

All examples of 'social constructs' that shouldn't be but are hijacked as dangerous negatives by over reactive minorities that is taboo to mention. I think it's all a little hyper sensationalised.
 

Carringbush2010

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Gender (the term) generally refers to the social construct, whereas 'biological sex' or just 'sex' refers to the physical/ biological side.

The latter (biology) is only relevant for medical reasons and similar. The former (gender, the social construct) is relevant for all other practical purposes (social interactions, self identity, recognition etc).

That's pretty much how I see it, except where you mention practical. Self identity and recognition are not necessarily grounded in reality, evidently when you have a person that id's differently from their biological reality.

For example you have a 110kg biological male that id's as a women, well that's not a physical reality and if the 'social construct' is used for purposes to serve an impractical wish of this person, then that's a societal problem.

For example if this person wishes to play in womens competition full contact sport like aus football well that is not practical and really should not be permitted.

There's reasons (like this one) why gender is used as a biological term for medical and practical purposes.