Society/Culture Do you belive in Non Binary as a gender?

Do you belive in Non Binary as a gender?

  • Yes , you can be not a male or a female

    Votes: 12 36.4%
  • No, your either a Man or a Women

    Votes: 21 63.6%

  • Total voters
    33

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Malifice

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That's pretty much how I see it, except where you mention practical. Self identity and recognition are not necessarily grounded in reality, evidently when you have a person that id's differently from their biological reality.

For example you have a 110kg biological male that id's as a women, well that's not a physical reality

You're (again) conflating gender with biological sex.

It's perfectly possible for a 110kg biological man to identify with (and as) the female gender, and that is the physical reality.

She is a woman, who is biologically male (if that matters).
 

Malifice

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To broaden, this sort of 'language' is frowned upon and demonised.

And for good reason. It entrenches the patriarchy. Girls hear those statements, and assume 'being a girl' is inferior to being a man.

If you look at these terms they define what are socially constructed expectations

Expectations that can be surmised as 'Men are strong, and take care of things' and also 'Women are weak, and need to be protected'.

Why? Because there's a minority that don't want the female viewed as physically weaker, even though there is no way of avoiding that fact. So we must not mention it.

No, that's not true at all. You should avoid saying it because all you're doing is reinforcing negative stereotypes about women, and enforcing patriarchy on them.

It's like how you should avoid saying 'That's gay' or using homophobic comments as a form of insult or in a derogatory way.

Same with 'man up', in this day and age it's immediately viewed as some sort of dangerous negative, the noise is never about what it should mean to 'man up' like don't shirk your responsibilities, admit your faults and mistakes, provide guidance where you're required to among other desired traits.

Any reason why those traits are 'male', or why men are supposedly better at them?

All examples of 'social constructs' that shouldn't be but are hijacked as dangerous negatives by over reactive minorities that is taboo to mention. I think it's all a little hyper sensationalised.

Did you watch the video I posted above?

Here it is again:




Please watch it, and explain to me what the point of the video is.

Notice how when young girls are asked to 'run/throw like a girl' they just run or throw as normal, with no modifications based on gender expectations, exactly the same as a boy would run or throw. When older people are asked to do those things like a girl, they deliberately run or throw in a weak, incompetent and dainty manner.

It's a learnt behavior.

By using 'like a girl' as a pejorative, we're teaching our girls (and boys for that matter) that girls are weak, incompetent and inferior to men. It's a learnt behavior, that reinforces patriarchy, male dominance and submission to men.

It should be avoided.
 
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Carringbush2010

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You're (again) conflating gender with biological sex.

Impossible not to, it is both a biological definition and a social construct, unless you can provide evidence to the counter.

It's perfectly possible for a 110kg biological man to identify with (and as) the female gender, and that is the physical reality.

That's not in dispute, having a biological male compete in full contact sport against biological women should not be allowed (and isn't as far as I know) for obvious reasons.

She is a woman, who is biologically male (if that matters).

Well yes it does if it impedes on others in society, like playing full contact sports for example.
 

Carringbush2010

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And for good reason. It entrenches the patriarchy. Girls hear those statements, and assume 'being a girl' is inferior to being a man.

Patriarchy in its intended form (evolutionary) is not a bad thing, you should know better. Patriarchy is not tyrannical, those who use it in a tyrannical manner are. - which by the way are definitely a minority.

Expectations that can be surmised as 'Men are strong, and take care of things' and also 'Women are weak, and need to be protected'.

No, you misinterpret the meaning immediately to a negative, mammalian males as a result of evolution (apart from exceptions like benobos for example) are strong and meant to take care of things. That does not or suggest mammalian females are weak - the contrary in fact. Women are the matriarchy in guidance for the young for example. Plenty of evolution to prove this point.

No, that's not true at all. You should avoid saying it because all you're doing is reinforcing negative stereotypes about women, and enforcing patriarchy on them.

It's like how you should avoid saying 'That's gay' or using homophobic comments as a form of insult or in a derogatory way.

No, I am certainly not reinforcing a negative stereotype, I'm saying there will always be that negative stereotype. Again, you're painting 'patriarchy' itself as the problem, it's not, it's the few bad apples that are the problem.

Regardless, there are also a few bad apples who are blinded by ideology / agenda that make a noise that 'patriarchy' is bad because of a few bad apples (bad men).

If it were true that patriarchy is wholly and solely bad then women in all societies would be oppressed to the point only being used to further the species. Clearly it is not.

Any reason why those traits are 'male', or why men are supposedly better at them?

I never suggested those traits are only male, even in the earliest of mammalian nature there are variances. However it does not take away from the fact that mammalian males have evolutionised to be a patriarchy, females to be a matriarchy (both necessary for order and organisation). Part of the hierarchal structure - we've been here before.

Did you watch the video I posted above?

Here it is again:
By using 'like a girl' as a pejorative

Yes I have watched that video, more than once, no one should use 'like a girl' as a pejorative - that's discrimination. Again, 'like a girl' is not something that should be disempowering, it should be empowering.

You need to stop viewing hierarchal structures as 'bad', you need to view the misusers as bad. Patriarchy and Matriarchy ARE good and NECESSARY unless you want anarchy.
 

Carringbush2010

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What are you talking about?

You're being an armchair expert, making claims in the face of a mountain of opposing evidence.

Umm Chief, no one needs to be an expert to know that gender is used as a social construct AND a biological definition.

I get that in reality they are inconsistent, not the point, the term gender is used in both spheres. Not up for debate.

Please show us all this 'mountain of opposing evidence'
 

Chief

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It's 100% irrelevant.

What is the point of making out it's important at all?

fu** me. This is painful.

You went on a spree about the word gender sometimes being used to mean "biological gender" and "gender identity".

To what end?? Which argument was advanced by that?
 

Carringbush2010

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It's 100% irrelevant.

What is the point of making out it's important at all?

fu** me. This is painful.

You went on a spree about the word gender sometimes being used to mean "biological gender" and "gender identity".

To what end?? Which argument was advanced by that?

Ok Chief calm down.

It's not an agenda on my part, it is what it is. Fact, gender is used as a biological definition and a social construct. You cannot deny this.

I'm not trying to make an argument, just pointing out the inconsistency in reality as a result. Completely and undeniably relevant.

If you have a problem with that then that is not on me.

As a request could you please reply directly to me, just in case I miss it (which seems you wanted me to - I would hope not).
 

Carringbush2010

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It's dumb pedantry and a complete waste of time. I'm out.

It may be dumb but that's how society uses the term, I get it, it's inconsistent and at odds with each definition.

I'm not the tree you should be barking up though.

Apologies if you see me that way, not intended.
 

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Malifice

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Patriarchy in its intended form (evolutionary) is not a bad thing, you should know better. Patriarchy is not tyrannical, those who use it in a tyrannical manner are. - which by the way are definitely a minority.

You're kidding right? Women weren't allowed to vote, work, earn the same amount of money as men when they could work, have control over their own reproduction, choose their own clothes to wear, and a sh*t-load more oppression due to the Patriarchy. Until very recently (last century) they were little more than property.

How on earth is that NOT tyrannical?

Lets assume a system exists where Women run the show, hold all the positions of power and authority (and thus create all the rules), under which Men:
  • Cant vote
  • Cant own property
  • Cant work
  • When they're allowed to work, they're limited in what they can do, and get paid half as much as the Women
  • Cant legally be raped by their Wives
  • Must be totally covered up at the beach and outside the home
Boys are taught at an early age that being a Man is weak and inferior, and Women are taught from an early age that being a Woman means taking care of things, including the Men, who are supposed to 'obey' and defer to the Woman.

Would you consider than an oppressive system or not?
 

Malifice

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Impossible not to, it is both a biological definition and a social construct

Bullshit. Nouns (like tables and houses) have gender in the Romantic languages (Spanish, Italian, French etc).

Do tables and houses physically have balls or a vagina?

If the answer is 'No' (and it is) then its entirely possible to distinguish gender from biological sex.
 

Carringbush2010

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You're kidding right? Women weren't allowed to vote, work, earn the same amount of money as men when they could work, have control over their own reproduction, choose their own clothes to wear, and a sh*t-load more oppression due to the Patriarchy. Until very recently (last century) they were little more than property.

How on earth is that NOT tyrannical?

Because it's no patriarchy doing the bad thing it's bad people, when are you going to get that through your head?
 

2006_Eagles

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Bullshit. Nouns (like tables and houses) have gender in the Romantic languages (Spanish, Italian, French etc).

Do tables and houses physically have balls or a vagina?

If the answer is 'No' (and it is) then its entirely possible to distinguish gender from biological sex.

Non binary didn't exist until the occult elite started their gender blurring agenda.

I understand that some males associate with being female and vice versa

Do away with the term 'gender' and strictly have sex. No one is born without an identity of which sex one way or the other
 

Malifice

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Because it's no patriarchy doing the bad thing it's bad people, when are you going to get that through your head?

Because it makes no ******* sense. The Patriarchy is a social construct for fu**s sake. Its the reason why those people did those bad things. The very phenomena of entrenched sexism and oppression of women by men is called the Patriarchy.

By your logic Nazism (the social construct) itself 'isnt bad' and neither is Racism (the social construct), but racists, slave owners and Nazis are just random bad people.
 

Malifice

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Non binary didn't exist until the occult elite started their gender blurring agenda.

So you're saying the non binary people that existed from the dawn of time and are documented historically in cultures going back millennia did not actually exist?

Although nonbinary is often regarded as a new idea, the identifier has been around for as long as civilization has. In fact, nonbinary gender has been recorded as far back as 400 B.C. to 200 A.D., when Hijras — people in India who identified as beyond male or female — were referenced in ancient Hindu texts.

Nonbinary: What Does It Mean? (healthline.com)
 

Carringbush2010

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Bullshit. Nouns (like tables and houses) have gender in the Romantic languages (Spanish, Italian, French etc).

Do tables and houses physically have balls or a vagina?

If the answer is 'No' (and it is) then its entirely possible to distinguish gender from biological sex.

Umm Malifice, if you're going to dispute the fact that people in society use gender as a definition of biological sex then you need to provide evidence to support it. You can't.

I'm not here to state it is correct or incorrect or bullshit as you put it, just that it is used in both spheres, whether or not you or anyone else agree society should or shouldn't.

Irrelevant.

The fact that society uses the term as both is not in dispute, I'm sure if you go to your nearest maternity ward you'll discover as much.
 

Carringbush2010

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Because it makes no ******* sense. The Patriarchy is a social construct for fu**s sake.

Umm Malifice, you do realize that hierarchy is NOT a social construct right? It is a necessary evolution, hundreds of thousands of years of evidence support this.

You cannot possibly prove that hierarchy (patriarchy or matriarchy) is a social construct.

Without matriarchy and patriarchy (order and organisation) we have anarchy. That is not debatable.

You need to stop viewing hierarchy as an intended construct to do harm, it's the misusers that do harm not the other way around. Hierarchy does not have a conscience, it is evolution of mammalian (and other) species. Again, this cannot be disputed.
 

Malifice

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Umm Malifice, if you're going to dispute the fact that people in society use gender as a definition of biological sex then you need to provide evidence to support it. You can't.

I just ******* did!

French for 'the table':

la table

Which translates to 'the (female) table'. You cant (in French) have le table, because 'le' is male.

Does the table have a vagina?
 

Malifice

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Umm Malifice, you do realize that hierarchy is NOT a social construct right?

Of course hierarchies are social constructs!

How is the existence of the King, the Lords and the Peasants, not a product of the Feudal hierarchy? How is the existence of Women being denied the vote, banned from owning property or working NOT the product of the Patriarchal Hierarchy? How is the existence of social class, or racism, or nations or cultures NOT social constructs?

Name for me a hierarchy among humans that is NOT a social construct.
 

Carringbush2010

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I just ******* did!

French for 'the table':

la table

Which translates to 'the (female) table'. You cant (in French) have le table, because 'le' is male.

Does the table have a vagina?

Malifice, I should not be the direction of your disagreement, take it up with society.

You're going to semantics here, whichever you wanna boil it down and dissect it..........

Fact. Society uses gender as a biological definition, there is no known way to dispute this.

Fact. Hierarchy be it patriarchy and or matriarchy is not socially constructed, the terms might be, regardless, however you term hierarchy, it is an evolutionary thing and certainly because it is necessary.

I'm not here to argue the should or should not in regard to how society uses the term of gender in inconsistency, I'm not the cloud you should be yelling at.
 

Malifice

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Fact. Society uses gender as a biological definition, there is no known way to dispute this.

No, society uses 'gender' as the term for the social construct:

Straight from the Oxford dictionary:

The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex

gender, n. : Oxford English Dictionary (oed.com)

The OED specifies that 'gender' is the term used primarily for the social construct, whereas the term 'sex' is used for the biological reality.

'Gender' can also be used to describe things that are not biologically male, or female as well (as I have already shown).

So what you are saying is not a 'fact' at all.
 
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