Society/Culture Do you belive in Non Binary as a gender?

Do you belive in Non Binary as a gender?

  • Yes , you can be not a male or a female

    Votes: 12 36.4%
  • No, your either a Man or a Women

    Votes: 21 63.6%

  • Total voters
    33

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Carringbush2010

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Do what you want to do be what you want to be yeeeaaah.

Go around calling yourself whatever you want. Man, woman, child, mother, father, great aunt twice removed. Just don't expect people to go along with it just because it's what you want. That's not how society works.

I'm not expecting people to 'just go along with it', it's not what 'I' want.

Anyone can identify as they wish as far I'm concerned so long is that doesn't impede on my business, which it doesn't.
 

Carringbush2010

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People incorrectly using language terms doesn't therefore make those language terms mean what you want them to mean.

Gender and Sex have traditionally been used interchangeably despite actually representing different things, because for the vast majority of society their sex and gender are the same, so they simply don't care or bother to differentiate by using the terms appropriately.

Whether you agree with the idea that Gender is something you can change or not, you should at the very least understand that Sex and Gender represent different things as formal definitions in language.

There's a reason Birth Certificates specifically say "Sex" on them, for example.

I don't have a desire for these terms to mean anything other than what they mean.

'Gender and Sex have traditionally been used interchangeably despite actually representing different things' - yes exactly, and they're still used interchangeably and still mean different things, thankyou.

'Whether you agree with the idea that Gender is something you can change or not, you should at the very least understand that Sex and Gender represent different things as formal definitions in language.'

Again, thankyou for agreeing with me.

I mention it and certain stubborn mods have a bee in their bonnet like I'm some bad guy trying to argue in bad faith, like I have an agenda or something. Despite the fact that I inform this is not my doing - repeatedly I might add.
 

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Seeds

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No they haven't. They've been arguing the exact opposite.

Did you even watch the video I posted above?
No i have not seen a video you posted. Where did you post it? In this thread or another?

i just suggested your comment to my feminist wife and her two very feminist sisters. These sisters are trying to get their sons to play with dolls and wear dresses. one of them is quite upset when i suggested your views. their comment back for you. What social behaviours exactly do you think women have been fighting to be pidgeon holed into?
 

Seeds

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We could call biological gender and gender identity blip and blorp, and they would still be two different things.
Blirp and blorp would be fine. the problem is when you dont label people with certain social behaviours unrelated to sexual biology as blip and blorp and instead label them as women and men.

you honestly claim that women who like football and chugging bears are biological women but not the gender women? Do you claim that boys who like ballet are not the gender male? Thats exactly the same as calling them sissies. I thought society moved past this?
 

Malifice

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No i have not seen a video you posted. Where did you post it? In this thread or another?

In this thread. Like twice.

What social behaviours exactly do you think women have been fighting to be pidgeon holed into?


What?

Women have been fighting to overthrow the patriarchy that regards them as inferior to men, denied them property rights or the ability to work or vote, controlled their reproductive rights, created fertile ground for the incidents that led to the Metoo movement to occur, has the phrase 'being a girl' being used as a pejorative insult, see's them as being overwhelmingly victimized by male sexual predators, and killed by male partners, results in them (still) earning less than men, and so forth.

If your 'feminist' wife needs that explained to her, she's a sh*t feminist.
 

Present Not Past

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If anybody cares anymore about gender please provide your argument here.
If you want to rage about gender balance in the workplace and about women in the workplace then take your rage to another thread. You’re input in this thread is misplaced.
 

sorted

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Women have been fighting to overthrow the patriarchy that regards them as inferior to men, denied them property rights or the ability to work or vote, controlled their reproductive rights, created fertile ground for the incidents that led to the Metoo movement to occur, has the phrase 'being a girl' being used as a pejorative insult, see's them as being overwhelmingly victimized by male sexual predators, and killed by male partners, results in them (still) earning less than men, and so forth.

If your 'feminist' wife needs that explained to her, she's a sh*t feminist.

You are at least 20 years out of date with most of those points and some of them over 100 years. Liberal feminism was about women achieving economic, social and political equity with men. This has largely been achieved. Women have had the right to vote in Australia since early last century. It is illegal to pay a woman less for the same job. There are quotas that give advantage to women in employment and political representation.

The current debate is within feminism and is about identity politics - whether biological males identifying as females qualify as the same oppressed group as biological females. Some feminists believe that anyone assigned male at birth will continue to have some form of male privilege, even after a gender transition. The trans activists seek to silence people with those views.
 

owen87

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NO, I don't, I said right from the start they are different and are inconsistent with each other.

So what's your issue then?

People misuse gender when often, they really mean sex.

It's as much education about correct use of language as it is anything else.
 

Malifice

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You are at least 20 years out of date with most of those points and some of them over 100 years. Liberal feminism was about women achieving economic, social and political equity with men. This has largely been achieved.

Yeah, nah.

Putting aside the entrenched issues that historical oppression causes (and that's a topic on its own), how on earth can you claim 'social, economic and political equity' between men and women, when:
  • most politicians, law makers, world leaders, CEO's and billionaires are male,
  • #metoo is a thing,
  • Weinstein is a thing,
  • abortion is still criminalized in large parts of the world and at risk of being wound back in the States,
  • 'acting like a girl' is seen as a pejorative,
  • domestic violence and sexual assaults disproportionately target women,
  • average wages and superannuation of women is still far less than men,
  • women are overwhelmingly still concerned about 'safety' when out and about,
  • we had a PM not that long ago that suggested women 'lack the temperament' to be leaders, and 'are happy at their ironing boards',
  • mansplaining is a thing
and so forth.

And I'm just talking about issues in those liberal democracies you mentioned above. In the third world, and the Islamic world, it's far far worse.

How can any person objectively make a claim that 'we have largely achieved economic, social and political equity'? It's simply patently false.
 

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Seeds

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In this thread. Like twice.




What?

Women have been fighting to overthrow the patriarchy that regards them as inferior to men, denied them property rights or the ability to work or vote, controlled their reproductive rights, created fertile ground for the incidents that led to the Metoo movement to occur, has the phrase 'being a girl' being used as a pejorative insult, see's them as being overwhelmingly victimized by male sexual predators, and killed by male partners, results in them (still) earning less than men, and so forth.

If your 'feminist' wife needs that explained to her, she's a sh*t feminist.
So now you agree with me? they have been fighting to overthrow men who wanted women pidgeon holed into certain social behaviours such as not working and being subservient to men, along with many others.

Also i didnt say this was the sole function of feminism. Just a primary one. your point about female safety and control over reproductive rights is not a point anyone is disagreeing with.

i will ask again. if you believe a women is someone who has certain social behaviours then what behaviours do you believe they are?

your definition of gender was based off behaviours. Can you even define what the behaviours are that make a female and a male?
 

Seeds

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And for good reason. It entrenches the patriarchy. Girls hear those statements, and assume 'being a girl' is inferior to being a man.



Expectations that can be surmised as 'Men are strong, and take care of things' and also 'Women are weak, and need to be protected'.



No, that's not true at all. You should avoid saying it because all you're doing is reinforcing negative stereotypes about women, and enforcing patriarchy on them.

It's like how you should avoid saying 'That's gay' or using homophobic comments as a form of insult or in a derogatory way.



Any reason why those traits are 'male', or why men are supposedly better at them?



Did you watch the video I posted above?

Here it is again:




Please watch it, and explain to me what the point of the video is.

Notice how when young girls are asked to 'run/throw like a girl' they just run or throw as normal, with no modifications based on gender expectations, exactly the same as a boy would run or throw. When older people are asked to do those things like a girl, they deliberately run or throw in a weak, incompetent and dainty manner.

It's a learnt behavior.

By using 'like a girl' as a pejorative, we're teaching our girls (and boys for that matter) that girls are weak, incompetent and inferior to men. It's a learnt behavior, that reinforces patriarchy, male dominance and submission to men.

It should be avoided.

Ok im really confused by your point now. I agree with most of this post. so why then do you want to define women and men by different social behaviours? from my point of view that definition of women and men creates that exact problems that you state you are trying to avoid in this post. What do you mean when you say gender is about social behaviours and what are the social behaviours of women and men?
 

sorted

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Yeah, nah.

Putting aside the entrenched issues that historical oppression causes (and that's a topic on its own), how on earth can you claim 'social, economic and political equity' between men and women, when:
  • most politicians, law makers, world leaders, CEO's and billionaires are male,
  • #metoo is a thing,
  • Weinstein is a thing,
  • abortion is still criminalized in large parts of the world and at risk of being wound back in the States,
  • 'acting like a girl' is seen as a pejorative,
  • domestic violence and sexual assaults disproportionately target women,
  • average wages and superannuation of women is still far less than men,
  • women are overwhelmingly still concerned about 'safety' when out and about,
  • we had a PM not that long ago that suggested women 'lack the temperament' to be leaders, and 'are happy at their ironing boards',
  • mansplaining is a thing
and so forth.

And I'm just talking about issues in those liberal democracies you mentioned above. In the third world, and the Islamic world, it's far far worse.

How can any person objectively make a claim that 'we have largely achieved economic, social and political equity'? It's simply patently false.

You are straying your argument into domains where the debate between liberal/economic feminists and trans activists hasn't even started. It's only relevant to the West. If you want to expand basic 2nd wave feminism of women's rights to the third world or Islamic nations then I'm onboard with you.

But in Australia, USA, UK etc it's conspiracy theory to suggest a current patriarchy still exists that regards women as inferior to men, deny them property rights, deny them the ability to work, deny the ability to vote, control their reproductive rights. These are long established material gains.

As I said, the current debate is within feminism and is about identity politics. So, for example, there are quotas that preference women as regards employment and political representation. Should biological males identifying as females qualify as the same oppressed group as biological females entitled to these advantages?

Some feminists believe that anyone assigned male at birth will continue to have some form of male privilege, even after a gender transition. The trans activists seek to silence people with those views.
 

Malifice

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You are straying your argument into domains where the debate between liberal/economic feminists and trans activists hasn't even started.

No mate, you were the one making a patently false claim of gender parity between men and women.

I was just pointing out the obvious, that your claim was markedly and self evidently false.
 

Fadge

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I think people can decide what they want, to be frank.

I've been watching 'Billions' lately and see they made a concerted effort with the non-binary character in it.

The trouble I have with this and it is either trivial and/or childish is the use of the 'they/them' pronoun. From a grammatical perspective, it stumps me everytime it is used because you tend to think the conversation is being had about a group of people and not just a single person.

I suppose to try and overcome this would probably be trying to pigeonhole no different to man/woman though either, so it's probably not even worth mentioning really.

I'll see myself out.
This is absolutely correct.

With the introduction of the use of they/them/they're for those who declare themselves of non-binary gender, we have the first homonyms in the English language where they are ambiguous despite the context around it.

It simply doesn't work. No wonder people continually trip over the terminology when they attempt to use it in everyday life.