Don't want, (or need) to start a new thread - still want to post it though

[Black_White]

Just as well as any placebo - if you believe in it.

But if you have doubts about something developed by a guy in the 1930s based on how holding different flowers made him “feel”, then it might not be as effective.


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I didn’t believe in it.
Absolute opposite, Was a big time non believer.
That I now believe? Have I been conned? Maybe.
But from a total non believer, and I still don’t believe in any of the “natural” shit that goes on, to a user of these products was not that big a step when the product actually worked for me.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I’ve recommended it to plenty of non believers. Without pushback.
Your statement about the product being developed in the 30’s means squat when you consider the date of the development of penicillin.
The good thing about RR is that, unlike the prescription stuff, if it doesn’t work for you then you simply are NOT ADDICTED.
Can’t say that about Diazapan and it’s derivatives.

 

[Black_White]

Placebos work if you believe in them.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

So you prefer GG to continue on his prescription drugs that are simply not working. And may be encouraging addiction.
Do you work for a drug company?
Because if you don’t, I cannot understand your investment in this conversation.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

For me, yes.
After falling from a ladder, breaking both wrists, and bumping my forehead I went from having no issues to be standing in the centre of 20 acres and feeling closed in.
The doc gave me Diazapan to help me sleep. Like you, it worked for a while. But the quality of sleep was awful, and short. 4 hours max and woke up feeling like the proverbial semi trailer had hit me.
Awful.
The Mrs suggested Rescue Remedy. I’m a science based person. Give me the science, give me the pill. What the hell is this shit made from flowers?
But I gave it a go. The Sleep Remedy worked after about four nights. I was shocked, but 6-7 hours actual REM sleep? Amazing.
Ive been able to move to only using the pastilles when I have sleep issues.
The brain races with thoughts when I hit the pillow. So I get up, take three pastilles, suck them (don’t chew), with8n 10 minutes I’m asleep.
I also use the pastilles when doing an mri (enclosed space) or injections (I’m needle phopic).
I cannot guarantee it will work for you. But I have recommended it to dozens of people over the last decade and no one has come back to tell me to shove it up my arse.
The reality for you is, what do you have to lose?
The medications aren’t working, and are dangerous and addictive.
RR is made from flowers!
Good luck, I hope it can do for you what it has done for me.

I will try it as I do have nothing to lose. I am probably sceptical of natural remedies but I respect the fact that you have taken the time to explain your own involvement with it. I actually find valium useless for sleeping beyond 2 hours. Lorazepam is the main benzo I have used but still only get a maximum of 4 hours from it. The after effects of either are unpleasant. I hate being psychologically conditioned to using pills for sleep. I'll report back to you on my experience with RR. Can it be purchased elsewhere than on line? My friend seemed to think Chemist Warehouse sells it.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

So you prefer GG to continue on his prescription drugs that are simply not working. And may be encouraging addiction.
Do you work for a drug company?
Because if you don’t, I cannot understand your investment in this conversation.

I understand sideswipe's scepticism. But I think this is the second time you have recommended RR to me. I owe you the courtesy of giving it a shot. As for addiction, I have used these pills for 2 years now and they are meant to be used for short bursts only. They no longer work and doubling the dose actually makes me more wired and attentive when I wake after 2-4 hours. I smoked fairly heavily for 40 years, and though giving up cigarettes was not so difficult, my sleep problems seemed to start not so long after quitting. I also stopped using anti depressants shortly after quitting. Anti depressants are actually fairly unobtrusive drugs that can nevertheless powerfully if subtly affect your state of mind. I don't consider myself to be a natural abuser of prescription drugs. I took them because they filled a need. Now I am being forced to reassess my situation. I cannot continue using the same course of treatment.

 

[Dynamics]

As someone who was prescribed benzos for several years to treat a medical condition, I can say that they aren't just an addiction risk, they're an addiction guarantee if taken on a regular basis. It took me several attempts to taper myself off them and it was hideous. Going cold turkey can also kill you if you regularly take a high dose.

But I hated being on them and fought tooth and nail until they were out of my system.

It's absolutely absurd that such an insidious drug is considered to be acceptable (you can say the same for alcohol) and yet something like CBD oil isn't.

TGG, I hope you find some relief soon.

 

[sideswipe]

So you prefer GG to continue on his prescription drugs that are simply not working. And may be encouraging addiction.
Do you work for a drug company?
Because if you don’t, I cannot understand your investment in this conversation.

There are likely many things beyond your understanding if you are suggestible enough to be convinced in the efficacy of a placebo.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Magpie Girl]

I will try it as I do have nothing to lose. I am probably sceptical of natural remedies but I respect the fact that you have taken the time to explain your own involvement with it. I actually find valium useless for sleeping beyond 2 hours. Lorazepam is the main benzo I have used but still only get a maximum of 4 hours from it. The after effects of either are unpleasant. I hate being psychologically conditioned to using pills for sleep. I'll report back to you on my experience with RR. Can it be purchased elsewhere than on line? My friend seemed to think Chemist Warehouse sells it.

Yes, chemist warehouse will have it. You can also take it several times a day, won’t hurt, just calms you

 

[jathanas]

Sunday chuckles: █████ STEAK

 

[jathanas]

Now that I've seen it, I can't unsee it.

 

[Black_White]

I will try it as I do have nothing to lose. I am probably sceptical of natural remedies but I respect the fact that you have taken the time to explain your own involvement with it. I actually find valium useless for sleeping beyond 2 hours. Lorazepam is the main benzo I have used but still only get a maximum of 4 hours from it. The after effects of either are unpleasant. I hate being psychologically conditioned to using pills for sleep. I'll report back to you on my experience with RR. Can it be purchased elsewhere than on line? My friend seemed to think Chemist Warehouse sells it.

Chemist warehouse stocks it.
From memory about $25 for the sleep spray and $24 for the pastilles.
Get the blackberry pastilles not the plain or raspberry. They gave me a packet of lemon ones once as a promotion, never seen them on the shelves though.

 

[Black_White]

There are likely many things beyond your understanding if you are suggestible enough to be convinced in the efficacy of a placebo.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

So you do prefer him to be addicted to prescription drugs.
You can poo poo it all you like, but there is about a $35 investment to see if it can help get him away from chemicals.
To me that’s a small investment in what can be a life changer.

 

[sideswipe]

So you do prefer him to be addicted to prescription drugs.
You can poo poo it all you like, but there is about a $35 investment to see if it can help get him away from chemicals.
To me that’s a small investment in what can be a life changer.

Sure thing. Placebos work if you believe in them. You bringing up
Penicillin presents an interesting juxtaposition. You see, the big thing about penicillin and all the other drugs/treatments approved by heath authorities is that they are clinically proven.

Rescue has been clinically researched numerous times and found to do nothing. The “can’t do any harm” is the thin edge of the wedge that sees vulnerable/desperate people exploited by snake oils, whether it be anything from cancer treatments, autism, sleep, whatever.

I just take the view that sellers of crap need to be called out. Rescue is undoubtedly a placebo. But if it works for you, great.


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[Obese Arachnid]

Now that I've seen it, I can't unsee it.

View attachment 876990

Raise you.

 

[Coathangered]

I will try it as I do have nothing to lose. I am probably sceptical of natural remedies but I respect the fact that you have taken the time to explain your own involvement with it. I actually find valium useless for sleeping beyond 2 hours. Lorazepam is the main benzo I have used but still only get a maximum of 4 hours from it. The after effects of either are unpleasant. I hate being psychologically conditioned to using pills for sleep. I'll report back to you on my experience with RR. Can it be purchased elsewhere than on line? My friend seemed to think Chemist Warehouse sells it.

HI TGG

your sleeping issues aren’t dissimilar to mine. My Dad who is 84 has the same issues & maybe they are hereditary, maybe lifestyle or no doubt a bit of both. Anyways I’ve been taking benzos for 30 years now - love them tbh cos they work for me, thank God. I start each night with a melatonin Tablet, followed by another often, then followed by a benzo if I can’t go down. I expect the melatonin is placebo, but hey maybe it has some benefit which reduces the sleepers. Like you, if I wake in the night i‘m cactus As going back to sleep isn’t possible, so have another benzo if it’s before 4am. If it’s after that I just start my day - 5 hours is enough for me. I don’t get groggy from the sleepers unlike many.
The best tool I have is my IPad tbh. I find something low key to listen to & don’t watch the screen at all. Takes my mind off any random thoughts that would otherwise keep me awake, & I usually drift off without needing a benzo. Bit hard if you have a partner next to you trying to sleep but that’s not the case for me.
some weeks are good & some are bad. Can take 2 benzos in a good week & 14 on a bad. More good than bad since listening to something low key I must say.
most people sleep easily & im jealous. I really reckon it’s a skill which I’m shit at, but have learned to cope with.
Feel for you.

 

[HeathySure]

Kind of shocked so many are taking Benzo's. Stay right away! they are addictive like heroin and an absolute bitch to get off, plus you get used to them quickly so you have to take a greater dose to get the same effect. Their are way better alternatives out there. See your doctor or a specialist

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Kind of shocked so many are taking Benzo's. Stay right away! they are addictive like heroin and an absolute bitch to get off, plus you get used to them quickly so you have to take a greater dose to get the same effect. Their are way better alternatives out there. See your doctor or a specialist

When you cannot sleep more than 2-4 hours at night (4hrs is almost luxury for me now, and that is with drugs), you do whatever you can to get some sleep. I never used to have a problem sleeping, though even as a teenager I was able to get by on 6-7 hrs sleep nightly. I don't want to go into how the sleep problems started because it's getting into very personal territory, but let's say I developed a psychosomatic type of condition that hit me in the middle of the night and resulted in me seeing a couple of different specialists. THat problem was 'cured' by going on to medications that screwed with other elements of my life and dried my mouth out so much that my dentist told me to get off them. For several years I had a doctor who though sympathetic was miserly in prescribing sleeping pills but offered nothing practical as a potential solution.

Then in Cambodia where I could get prescription medicines over the counter I self medicated with assistance from google for my particular problem. Back in Australia I sold up my house and moved into the city and found the clinic doctor I have now who was fine with prescribing most of the benzo family selection to me, though only one has ever really met my sleeping needs. Unfortunately its effectiveness wore off over time. Where to go from here I am not sure. Hash oil has worked quite well for me and is a natural alternative but to the best of my knowledge it is not readily medically available.

I tried a sleep specialist and was unimpressed. The guy was a professor at Melbourne uni and slugged me a lot of money for a useless consultation. I was prescribed melatonin but never tried it because internet research and friends suggested it would have little more than a placebo effect. I imagine many people would be critical of my doctor for his willingness to prescribe medication that almost every other doctor won't. I was grateful that he recognised I had a problem that other medications and therapies had failed to cure. The doctors I dislike are those that refuse to prescribe any sedatives or sleeping pills and fail to truly empathise with a problem that to the patient is so real as to be almost suicide inducing. The vast majority of people live their lives without ever needing any of these drugs to get through their daily lives. Other people are not so fortunate, particularly when carrying the burden of unresolved issues from their early lives.

I can assure you that the anti depressants recommended as safe by doctors to treat anxiety are also very addictive and in my experience more of a bitch to get off than valium. On the other hand, they are generally physically far kinder to the body on a daily basis than benzos. In fact their presence is almost imperceptible. However, anti-depressants prescribed for sleep problems tend to be the old tricyclics and they do have undesirable side effects and are useless as mood lifters.

Coathangered seems to have survived OK using benzos over a 30 year period. From his post, it seems he doesn't use them on a daily basis. My uncle was a well known Australian artist who had a chronic sleeping problem and was prescribed extremely strong sleeping pills like Mandrax and Rohypnol (date rape drugs) throughout his life without seemingly having any ill effects. Unlike either of these people, I am not happy using them on a daily basis, but going cold turkey is not going to help me cope psychologically with my sleep problem. Unfortunately, I am yet to find the perfect doctor willing to prescribe medication as an immediate fix while assisting to investigate alternative treatments from specialists offering something other than counselling and placebos and charging monstrous amounts of money for their services.

Anyway enough of this discussion. I certainly don't want to be seen as advocating the use of prescription medicines to anyone, nor do I particularly want to be using them myself. Besides, there are doctors on this forum who I am sure could provide a far more informed view of these drugs than me.

 

[HeathySure]

When you cannot sleep more than 2-4 hours at night (4hrs is almost luxury for me now, and that is with drugs), you do whatever you can to get some sleep. I never used to have a problem sleeping, though even as a teenager I was able to get by on 6-7 hrs sleep nightly. I don't want to go into how the sleep problems started because it's getting into very personal territory, but let's say I developed a psychosomatic type of condition that hit me in the middle of the night and resulted in me seeing a couple of different specialists. THat problem was 'cured' by going on to medications that screwed with other elements of my life and dried my mouth out so much that my dentist told me to get off them. For several years I had a doctor who though sympathetic was miserly in prescribing sleeping pills but offered nothing practical as a potential solution.

Then in Cambodia where I could get prescription medicines over the counter I self medicated with assistance from google for my particular problem. Back in Australia I sold up my house and moved into the city and found the clinic doctor I have now who was fine with prescribing most of the benzo family selection to me, though only one has ever really met my sleeping needs. Unfortunately its effectiveness wore off over time. Where to go from here I am not sure. Hash oil has worked quite well for me and is a natural alternative but to the best of my knowledge it is not readily medically available.

I tried a sleep specialist and was unimpressed. The guy was a professor at Melbourne uni and slugged me a lot of money for a useless consultation. I was prescribed melatonin but never tried it because internet research and friends suggested it would have little more than a placebo effect. I imagine many people would be critical of my doctor for his willingness to prescribe medication that almost every other doctor won't. I was grateful that he recognised I had a problem that other medications and therapies had failed to cure. The doctors I dislike are those that refuse to prescribe any sedatives or sleeping pills and fail to truly empathise with a problem that to the patient is so real as to be almost suicide inducing. The vast majority of people live their lives without ever needing any of these drugs to get through their daily lives. Other people are not so fortunate, particularly when carrying the burden of unresolved issues from their early lives.

I can assure you that the anti depressants recommended as safe by doctors to treat anxiety are also very addictive and in my experience more of a bitch to get off than valium. On the other hand, they are generally physically far kinder to the body on a daily basis than benzos. In fact their presence is almost imperceptible. However, anti-depressants prescribed for sleep problems tend to be the old tricyclics and they do have undesirable side effects and are useless as mood lifters.

Coathangered seems to have survived OK using benzos over a 30 year period. From his post, it seems he doesn't use them on a daily basis. My uncle was a well known Australian artist who had a chronic sleeping problem and was prescribed extremely strong sleeping pills like Mandrax and Rohypnol (date rape drugs) throughout his life without seemingly having any ill effects. Unlike either of these people, I am not happy using them on a daily basis, but going cold turkey is not going to help me cope psychologically with my sleep problem. Unfortunately, I am yet to find the perfect doctor willing to prescribe medication as an immediate fix while assisting to investigate alternative treatments from specialists offering something other than counselling and placebos and charging monstrous amounts of money for their services.

Anyway enough of this discussion. I certainly don't want to be seen as advocating the use of prescription medicines to anyone, nor do I particularly want to be using them myself. Besides, there are doctors on this forum who I am sure could provide a far more informed view of these drugs than me.

I am really sorry you are having so many problems TGG. I will just add one last comment. The benzos can make the problem worse when you are on them for a long time. I was on a small dose for 20 years and it took me 6 months to get off it so i know how hard it is, But i think they might be the thing causing you the problem now. The cure is not easy. I wanted to get off them for 10 years until i finally got the courage to do so. I did it so slowly that the only side effect i had was my memory was shocking during the time of withdrawal. There are places who will help you get off them. I really recommend you do so, it has helped me immensely

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I am really sorry you are having so many problems TGG. I will just add one last comment. The benzos can make the problem worse when you are on them for a long time. I was on a small dose for 20 years and it took me 6 months to get off it so i know how hard it is, But i think they might be the thing causing you the problem now. The cure is not easy. I wanted to get off them for 10 years until i finally got the courage to do so. I did it so slowly that the only side effect i had was my memory was shocking during the time of withdrawal. There are places who will help you get off them. I really recommend you do so, it has helped me immensely

They are not causing my problem now but they don't appear to be helping much. I have not increased the dose, just very occasionally doubled it but 90% of the time I use the same dose now as I did 2 years ago. I don't find I need to use more for the same effect. I just largely find them fairly ineffective or in larger dose counter effective. But when I don't use them, and don't sleep at all, that's when I understand why I still take them. I agree with your advice but would respond by saying I need to replace them with something.

I don't find them as addictive as heroin. Cigarettes are easily the most addictive drug I have experienced. As a smoker I related to a description of the poet Dylan Thomas - 'He didn't so much smoke a cigarette but wear one'. A cigarette became a part of my being and I could not imagine living life without a cigarette I understand what OA is enduring? How are you going with the darts Obese?

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Tried a new system last night that worked quite well. Went to bed on nothing and when I woke after 2.5 hours took the usual dose and did get back to sleep. So I will try sleeping on the RR and only bring the medication into play after waking, reducing the dose of the prescription stuff. That way I get used to going to bed without medication. Thanks to Coathangered's advised method. Paves the way for cutting the medication out altogether. Going to ask my doc for a script for melatonin today rather than anti depressants and will also get the RR. I can alternate between the two or even combine them when I go to bed. Thanks guys and ladies, you have given me some left field ideas which could at the very least lead to reducing the prescription medication while giving me more hours sleep. Sometimes I love this forum, because it has lots of good people with differing views to cherry pick. I don't really have a set agenda and am happy to try something new rather than continue with what's not working.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

They are not causing my problem now but they don't appear to be helping much. I have not increased the dose, just very occasionally doubled it but 90% of the time I use the same dose now as I did 2 years ago. I don't find I need to use more for the same effect. I just largely find them fairly ineffective or in larger dose counter effective. But when I don't use them, and don't sleep at all, that's when I understand why I still take them. I agree with your advice but would respond by saying I need to replace them with something.

I don't find them as addictive as heroin. Cigarettes are easily the most addictive drug I have experienced. As a smoker I related to a description of the poet Dylan Thomas - 'He didn't so much smoke a cigarette but wear one'. A cigarette became a part of my being and I could not imagine living life without a cigarette I understand what OA is enduring? How are you going with the darts Obese?

View attachment 877217

Roughly a week without one, so far so good.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Roughly a week without one, so far so good.

Well done, NID! So you won't be holding an ale in one hand and a dart in the other at the Dew Drop Inn meet-up then!

 

[Magpie Girl]

Tried a new system last night that worked quite well. Went to bed on nothing and when I woke after 2.5 hours took the usual dose and did get back to sleep. So I will try sleeping on the RR and only bring the medication into play after waking, reducing the dose of the prescription stuff. That way I get used to going to bed without medication. Thanks to Coathangered's advised method. Paves the way for cutting the medication out altogether. Going to ask my doc for a script for melatonin today rather than anti depressants and will also get the RR. I can alternate between the two or even combine them when I go to bed. Thanks guys and ladies, you have given me some left field ideas which could at the very least lead to reducing the prescription medication while giving me more hours sleep. Sometimes I love this forum, because it has lots of good people with differing views to cherry pick. I don't really have a set agenda and am happy to try something new rather than continue with what's not working.

You can take the RR as often as you want GG, it relieves the anxiety, so use it through the day and the night, even if you still feel the need to take the medication during the night
Glad you got some good sleep last night

 

[Markfs]

When you cannot sleep more than 2-4 hours at night (4hrs is almost luxury for me now, and that is with drugs), you do whatever you can to get some sleep. I never used to have a problem sleeping, though even as a teenager I was able to get by on 6-7 hrs sleep nightly. I don't want to go into how the sleep problems started because it's getting into very personal territory, but let's say I developed a psychosomatic type of condition that hit me in the middle of the night and resulted in me seeing a couple of different specialists. THat problem was 'cured' by going on to medications that screwed with other elements of my life and dried my mouth out so much that my dentist told me to get off them. For several years I had a doctor who though sympathetic was miserly in prescribing sleeping pills but offered nothing practical as a potential solution.

Then in Cambodia where I could get prescription medicines over the counter I self medicated with assistance from google for my particular problem. Back in Australia I sold up my house and moved into the city and found the clinic doctor I have now who was fine with prescribing most of the benzo family selection to me, though only one has ever really met my sleeping needs. Unfortunately its effectiveness wore off over time. Where to go from here I am not sure. Hash oil has worked quite well for me and is a natural alternative but to the best of my knowledge it is not readily medically available.

I tried a sleep specialist and was unimpressed. The guy was a professor at Melbourne uni and slugged me a lot of money for a useless consultation. I was prescribed melatonin but never tried it because internet research and friends suggested it would have little more than a placebo effect. I imagine many people would be critical of my doctor for his willingness to prescribe medication that almost every other doctor won't. I was grateful that he recognised I had a problem that other medications and therapies had failed to cure. The doctors I dislike are those that refuse to prescribe any sedatives or sleeping pills and fail to truly empathise with a problem that to the patient is so real as to be almost suicide inducing. The vast majority of people live their lives without ever needing any of these drugs to get through their daily lives. Other people are not so fortunate, particularly when carrying the burden of unresolved issues from their early lives.

I can assure you that the anti depressants recommended as safe by doctors to treat anxiety are also very addictive and in my experience more of a bitch to get off than valium. On the other hand, they are generally physically far kinder to the body on a daily basis than benzos. In fact their presence is almost imperceptible. However, anti-depressants prescribed for sleep problems tend to be the old tricyclics and they do have undesirable side effects and are useless as mood lifters.

Coathangered seems to have survived OK using benzos over a 30 year period. From his post, it seems he doesn't use them on a daily basis. My uncle was a well known Australian artist who had a chronic sleeping problem and was prescribed extremely strong sleeping pills like Mandrax and Rohypnol (date rape drugs) throughout his life without seemingly having any ill effects. Unlike either of these people, I am not happy using them on a daily basis, but going cold turkey is not going to help me cope psychologically with my sleep problem. Unfortunately, I am yet to find the perfect doctor willing to prescribe medication as an immediate fix while assisting to investigate alternative treatments from specialists offering something other than counselling and placebos and charging monstrous amounts of money for their services.

Anyway enough of this discussion. I certainly don't want to be seen as advocating the use of prescription medicines to anyone, nor do I particularly want to be using them myself. Besides, there are doctors on this forum who I am sure could provide a far more informed view of these drugs than me.

I'm a curious opinionated sort of guy but I leave others to lead their own lives. With that precursor, I was wondering if anyone has told you or by self education, has an idea of what is the fundamental problem. What sparks this need for medication. I probably missed that part of your story in an earlier post, but I was just wondering.

 

[Markfs]

I need to post this now. I just read an article about travel bubbles.

We could allow people to travel overseas to wherever they wanted on the planet on a few conditions:
1. No emergency evacs - signed release required
2. No embassy assists - signed release required
3. Mandatory 2 weeks at a hotel on arrival back in Australia at self-expense.
4. Any test for virus on return requires hospitalisation at travellers own expense.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I'm a curious opinionated sort of guy but I leave others to lead their own lives. With that precursor, I was wondering if anyone has told you or by self education, has an idea of what is the fundamental problem. What sparks this need for medication. I probably missed that part of your story in an earlier post, but I was just wondering.

Down to max 5 hours sleep with inability to return to sleep. Came on suddenly following a lifetime of reasonable sleep patterns. Put up with this for several years with occasional use of sleeping pills. Then discovered one which prolonged the sleep time but is now not effective. No one has been able to isolate the fundamental problem. Biggest problem really is not being able to get back to sleep.