Doping Thread

[Papa Juggs]

Ok I'll rephrase.

You can't test for EPO these days.

They know how to beat the tests so it is burnt off and masking agents are very advanced.

 

[RU486]

You can't test for EPO these days.

They know how to beat the tests so it is burnt off and masking agents are very advanced.

Ok I'll rephrase.

You can't test for EPO these days.

This was the reason for the creation of the bio-passport. Whilst the parameters of the bio-passport are rather large making it very difficult to prosecute someone for RBC manipulation it acts as a form of intel. When significant variations are seen in your RBC levels they are still generally within the parameters of the bio-passport, then they target test continually - As in everyday for weeks on end.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Pantani got banned for running with 55% hemocrit. Riders now can't go anywhere near 50%.

Theres a reason why he still holds records for specific climbs.

Wasn't the cut off 49 for many years after the EPO test came in post Sydney Olympics? If its no longer 49, what is the number allowed these days?

 

[hirdy_is_champ]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel like the whole Armstrong saga has created this situation where people basically believe "oh they got Armstrong, now its all clean." I think its a convenient distraction from what might be happening right now not only in cycling but other sports as well. Its never just one person.

Anyway, I don't mean to butt in, carry on.

 

[Belnakor]

Wasn't the cut off 49 for many years after the EPO test came in post Sydney Olympics? If its no longer 49, what is the number allowed these days?

There is still limits but its driven by your bio passport. No one would get anywhere near the mr 60 percent stuff anymore.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

There is still limits but its driven by your bio passport. No one would get anywhere near the mr 60 percent stuff anymore.

Of course. Your passport has lots of readings in the 41-43 range then shoots up to 46 - especially if its in the middle a week to three week race - then that raise a red flag.

 

[ben_1301]

Up the Hautacam tonight, if you've got a few mins spare jump on youtube and check out when the 1996 tour went up it for a bit of a laugh!
Riis 34:40mins VAM 1839 m/h the power of EPO! For comparison the guys tonight will we lucky to crack 39mins and 1600VAM

 

[Donakebab]

Up the Hautacam tonight, if you've got a few mins spare jump on youtube and check out when the 1996 tour went up it for a bit of a laugh!
Riis 34:40mins VAM 1839 m/h the power of EPO! For comparison the guys tonight will we lucky to crack 39mins and 1600VAM

So stats are in, here are the placings in the all time top 100 up Hautacam from last night.

26. 2014: 37:23 Vincenzo Nibali 21.67 km/h
43. 2014: 38:33 Thibaut Pinot 21.01 km/h
44. 2014: 38:35 Rafal Majka 21.01 km/h
46. 2014: 38:38 Jean-Christophe Peraud 20.97 km/h
47. 2014: 38:38 Tejay Van Garderen 20.97 km/h
65. 2014: 39:16 Romain Bardet 20.63 km/h
67. 2014: 39:20 Bauke Mollema 20.59 km/h
68. 2014: 39:20 Leopold Konig 20.59 km/h
70. 2014: 39:22 Haimar Zubeldia 20.58 km/h
71. 2014: 39:22 Alejandro Valverde 20.58 km/h
72. 2014: 39:22 Laurens Ten Dam 20.58 km/h

Taken from here: http://www.climbing-records.com/2014/07/new-hautacam-top-100-nibali-close-to.html

1. 1996: 34:38 Bjarne Riis 23.39 km/h
2. 1994: 35:19 Luc Leblanc 22.94 km/h
3. 1994: 35:21 Miguel Indurain 22.91 km/h
4. 1996: 35:27 Richard Virenque 22.85 km/h
5. 1996: 35:27 Laurent Dufaux 22.85 km/h
6. 1996: 35:32 Luc Leblanc 22.80 km/h
7. 1996: 35:35 Leonardo Piepoli 22.76 km/h
8. 1994: 35:37 Marco Pantani 22.74 km/h
9. 1996: 36:11 Tony Rominger 22.39 km/h
10. 1996: 36:11 Jan Ullrich 22.39 km/h

 

[Papa Juggs]

So they're not as doped up as the were in the 90s. The evidence shows that clearly.

Still no way Nibali is clean suddenly being one of the best riders of all time. At least he wasn't a nothing before getting this good like Froome was but the jump is still huge.

 

[alfy!]

Still no way Nibali is clean suddenly being one of the best riders of all time. At least he wasn't a nothing before getting this good like Froome was but the jump is still huge.

How are you judging this?

Nibali has always been world class.

 

[Papa Juggs]

How are you judging this?

Nibali has always been world class.

Don't worry Vino says he's clean. He was the cleanest rider of all.

Every winner for the last 70 years has doped. I think it's weird that the results vary so much. Seems to me like not every rider dopes every year.

You can be sure the top competitors are on the good stuff though.

I think Sky might be under to much scrutiny for funny business this year.

 

[alfy!]

Every winner for the last 70 years has doped. I think it's weird that the results vary so much. Seems to me like not every rider dopes every year.

No way to tell 100% either way. I think it's obvious over the past few years that the characteristics and timings of the performances have changed to be much more realistic.

I choose to be positive and enjoy the cycling for what it is. I see no point trolling/arguing/repeating like a record about something we have little idea about. You obviously choose to be negative about every facet of the sport in threads like this.

 

[Papa Juggs]

No way to tell 100% either way. I think it's obvious over the past few years that the characteristics and timings of the performances have changed to be much more realistic.

I choose to be positive and enjoy the cycling for what it is. I see no point trolling/arguing/repeating like a record about something we have little idea about. You obviously choose to be negative about every facet of the sport in threads like this.

I'm not being negative. I'm enjoying it for what it is.

If they didn't dope they wouldn't win and they wouldn't get paid.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Froome smoking Contador this early. Team Sky still got the good stuff.

 

[blackcat]

Froome smoking Contador this early. Team Sky still got the good stuff.

nothing to see here, move along, these are not the droids you are looking for.

 

[blackcat]

I'm not being negative. I'm enjoying it for what it is.

If they didn't dope they wouldn't win and they wouldn't get paid.

biggie smalls, gotta get paid.

i dont mind when orica greenedge dope to win, their my hypocrisy shines thru like a debutante ball

 

[bing181]

Froome smoking Contador this early. Team Sky still got the good stuff.

Maybe brush up on the relevant strengths and weaknesses of the two riders in question. All you're doing is revealing your ignorance.

 

[Sasquatch]

Every winner for the last 70 years has doped. I think it's weird that the results vary so much.

Exactly

Even Cadel doped.

 

[Smedts_2]

Maybe brush up on the relevant strengths and weaknesses of the two riders in question. All you're doing is revealing your ignorance.

Hmm, yep Froome is strong at climbing, ITT, sprinting and everything really, despite a piss poor pedigree. Given the history of the sport, the willingness of viewers to accept "marginal gains" and Bilharzia as the reasons for this without serious scrutiny is bewildering to me.

 

[blackcat]

Hmm, yep Froome is strong at climbing, ITT, sprinting and everything really, despite a piss poor pedigree. Given the history of the sport, the willingness of viewers to accept "marginal gains" and Bilharzia as the reasons for this without serious scrutiny is bewildering to me.

no, the fact that he went from about 73kg and 6'1", to about 65kg for the Tour, and still 6'1" has no one asking questions. And if you look at the AFL physiques in the last 3 or 4 years, they have also started to use the same PEDs, to render excess non-functional body mass.

Not rendering fat. But red tissue, and white tissue, muscle tendon and ligament body mass, probably some bone mass too. See the "new" soccer physique, it was so evident at last years world cup. Your control sample was the World Cup 5 years ago, versus last year. Why do they have smaller waists, but the same size glutes and quads. In cycling parlance "NOT NORMAL".

I think it is the AICAR and GW1516 with the Lipotropin (which is Dank's AOD9604), plus maybe some other peptides. It is not the clenbuterol nor the cortisone, because cortisone and clen existed before, but these are new bodies, these new physiques did not exist in the agile, agility greyhound stakes and sphere. They just were not in existence.

Lets say, Froome had a male anorexia, and was 6'1" and 65kg. His body would not look the same, his cheeks would be drawn, and the muscles less. The new AFL and other pro sports physiques, they are symmetrical, perfectly symmetrical muscle. There are certain muscle groups that are difficult to build a symmetrical image, even if you are a swimmer or do those isometric (might be wrong technical term) exercises where the resistance is the same thru all the movement of the muscle. One is the driver muscle/hip flexor. Yarran was obviously born with genetics, like a 400 metre runner, but now everyone has these quads with their hip flexor like a 400metre olympics runner. And traps are difficult, even with all the shrugs and shoulder press movements. And the triceps like Chris Tarrant or David Robinson.

The Port Adelaide coach Darren Burgess was one of the early adopters of the greyhound weight, but he was not the first to change the physique in the affal. It was a confluence of some coaching strategy, the 3 man 4 man i/change bench, the rotations. runners like Chad Wingard.

RussellEbertHandball Chameleon75

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

no, the fact that he went from about 73kg and 6'1", to about 65kg for the Tour, and still 6'1" has no one asking questions. And if you look at the AFL physiques in the last 3 or 4 years, they have also started to use the same PEDs, to render excess non-functional body mass.

Not rendering fat. But red tissue, and white tissue, muscle tendon and ligament body mass, probably some bone mass too. See the "new" soccer physique, it was so evident at last years world cup. Your control sample was the World Cup 5 years ago, versus last year. Why do they have smaller waists, but the same size glutes and quads. In cycling parlance "NOT NORMAL".

I think it is the AICAR and GW1516 with the Lipotropin (which is Dank's AOD9604), plus maybe some other peptides. It is not the clenbuterol nor the cortisone, because cortisone and clen existed before, but these are new bodies, these new physiques did not exist in the agile, agility greyhound stakes and sphere. They just were not in existence.

Lets say, Froome had a male anorexia, and was 6'1" and 65kg. His body would not look the same, his cheeks would be drawn, and the muscles less. The new AFL and other pro sports physiques, they are symmetrical, perfectly symmetrical muscle. There are certain muscle groups that are difficult to build a symmetrical image, even if you are a swimmer or do those isometric (might be wrong technical term) exercises where the resistance is the same thru all the movement of the muscle. One is the driver muscle/hip flexor. Yarran was obviously born with genetics, like a 400 metre runner, but now everyone has these quads with their hip flexor like a 400metre olympics runner. And traps are difficult, even with all the shrugs and shoulder press movements. And the triceps like Chris Tarrant or David Robinson.

The Port Adelaide coach Darren Burgess was one of the early adopters of the greyhound weight, but he was not the first to change the physique in the affal. It was a confluence of some coaching strategy, the 3 man 4 man i/change bench, the rotations. runners like Chad Wingard.

RussellEbertHandball Chameleon75

Yep we are more greyhound than Mr Universe under Burgess. The great debate on the Port board is we are too skinny and not strong enough and lighter than last year and have been rag dolled this year.

 

[blackcat]

Yep we are more greyhound than Mr Universe under Burgess. The great debate on the Port board is we are too skinny and not strong enough and lighter than last year and have been rag dolled this year.

I think Burgess had them right actually, keep them greyhound, but keep some strong like the quads guy, who is about 188cm and 92kg. Keep his weight on him, keep the weight on the AFL coaches ass'n BnF from last year.

Russ, tell us a 101 "market efficiency theory". Everyone has matched the trends to running explosiveness and endurance, the happy medium.

But, you need to triangulate your best physique for your own native talent, versus your opposition talents, versus opposition team defense talent.

like in the NBA, they say, dont be good at everything, be the best at one thing, and you will always have a spot on a roster. Well, you need to triangulate your specialisation, and know your inherent talent, and refine your inherent talent to the best standard.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I think Burgess had them right actually, keep them greyhound, but keep some strong like the quads guy, who is about 188cm and 92kg. Keep his weight on him, keep the weight on the AFL coaches ass'n BnF from last year.

Russ, tell us a 101 "market efficiency theory". Everyone has matched the trends to running explosiveness and endurance, the happy medium.

But, you need to triangulate your best physique for your own native talent, versus your opposition talents, versus opposition team defense talent.

like in the NBA, they say, dont be good at everything, be the best at one thing, and you will always have a spot on a roster. Well, you need to triangulate your specialisation, and know your inherent talent, and refine your inherent talent to the best standard.

Ollie Wines, was kept at his 187cm/94kgs weight in 2013 and 2014, but he dropped his weight about 3kgs over the 2014/15 preseason and hasnt been as effective this year. Has a leaner look and the quadzilla jokes arent direct at him as often this year. Dislocated his wrist in Rd 3 game and missed 4 games as a result, but his clearance numbers are down, partly injury, partly he isnt having the same impact in the clearances. In 2013 they managed Ollie really well and he was the most rotated player in the AFL. He got more game time in 2014. He played all 49 games in 2013 ad 2014.

By 101 - do you mean the fact that you can increase both endurance running on one hand as well as increase power and strength and explosive running up to a certain point. Once you reach that point you naturally cant increase both at the same time. You have to trade off one for the other. Its why you dont see Bolt run both 100m and 1,500m.

Bo Jackson the great NFL and MLB baseballer who for about 4 years who dominated both games in the late 1980's and early 1990's until he dislocated his hip in early 1991, had to retire from both sports, had a hip replacement and came back and played MLB baseball in 1993. An amazing effort and the only professional sortsman outside of golf I know who has competeted with an artifical hip but he could only do it for 2 seasons and had to give it away as he could play the way he wanted to.

He was a genetic freak, 6 foot 1 and 100kgs and was that size at 16-17 years of age at school. ESPN Sports Science guys in 2014 named him the athlete of the century after they looked at 24 athletes over 16 sports world wide and used all these metrics to measure each individual. Ran the series over 10 weeks or so over late 2013 and early 2014.

He did the decathlon at school and was state school boys champion a couple of times. He hated running the 1,500m as the final event, hated distance, so he asked his coach how many points did he have to be in front so that that he didnt have to run the 1,500m. I think the coach said 1,300 points. [The current normal 1,500m world record time gets you 1,218 pts]. The coach told him how many points and if he could get that far in front he could sit in the stand. He was able to improve all his power events to get to the point that he ended up sitting in the stand watching his competitors run the 1,500m but still won the decathlon title.

As one of the sportswriters on the ESPN 30 for 30 doco - You don't know Bo said, it was almost a blessing that he didnt last long because if he played in the 1990's people would have thought he was on steroids his whole career. He was a genetic freak of nature and being the 8th kid of 10 to a single mother, he adapted to a strong natural survival mindset from an early age.

Midfielders in the AFL who are 95kgs, have explosive speed as well as run all day are not normal.

 

[ben_1301]

You guys are playing up the level of aerobic adaptation footballers have, the best are at the level of a B grade club cyclist.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Contador is just too paranoid to juice hard these days.

Froome and the Sky boys have like a magic shield. Wow dare you look behind our curtain, we are team Sky!!!!!!

It's sad that Froome walks away from him on even the smallest mountain. I fear we're not going to see much of a challenge this year even with a really grueling mountain schedule. He would need to crash to lose. He is basically the new Lance. I don't doubt his hard work but his natural ability seen in his younger days doesn't match the invincible rider he is now.

I guess what I really want to see is other teams doping to the same level to provide some competition. It's not the juice that bothers me so much as the fact it's a 1 man race.