Drafting

[TradeDraft]

Hine's position should be reviewed but Guy should be executed for the mismanagement of the list. He has set it back years sadly. We need a full rebuild.

Hine is good as long as he sticks to Drafting

 

[Quicky]

Then why is he still in the job? We've got some real Remora's at our club, Buckley and Hine

Because Hine's otherwise a quality recruiter. It's probably also important to acknowledge he hasn't been entirely unsuccessful with the strategy. He's picked up Cox, Mihocek and Keane with it. To me he just needed to balance that approach with more attention on KPF high in the draft.

 

[zhoung]

What if we had him killed?

Well its gotta be cheaper than 7x $1,000,000 Get it done Chop chop.

 

[Lip Gallagher]

Well its gotta be cheaper than 7x $1,000,000 Get it done Chop chop.

And to think we'd be the ones going to jail if we did it, there's no justice in the world.

 

[magpies42]

This is a classic throw the baby out with the bath water thread. I don’t get it at all. I dont think you can reasonably expect Hine and his team to pick players in the draft any better than he did/does. The guy is a freak at picking talent. That’s his job.

You can criticise him for his role as list manager, trading out picks for players etc. but they’ve since revised his role down to recruiting. And on this basis there is probably just the Geelong recruiting team that has out done him over his tenure.

Even if you pick the best talent it doesn’t mean they succeed, it’s up to the footy department to extract the best from the player...there is a lot of luck involved too ( Think Freeman and Kirby, both were stars in the making).

Geoff Walsh and the guy that preceded him briefly are the ones you should be after.

 

[Markfs]

tyler brockman picked by hawthorn last year at pick 46 is a pretty good example of what we should be going for in the late picks.... unfortunately he's indigenous so we cant pick him...

 

[SchuPie]

Maybe a full rebuild but it’s amazing how quickly thinks change

It prob won’t happen but a trade of (hypothetically) Grundy nets us Mc Donald and a pick (to use on another small pressure forward)- trading in a developing KPD in McAsey...list looks completely different

Combine this with a number of young mids coming through (+ add Daics), a KP in McMahon, medium forward in Henry and suddenly we’re back in action

Not doubt we need to be shrewd but bold and assured in our trading and drafting but there’s hope

So we Trade the Heart of the Team.

So we going to do what North Did just Start from Scratch?

See my post above

 

[Lockyer24]

We can’t seem to position ourselves when the key forwards are up for grabs. Logan Mac is gunna hurt

 

[No SPIN]

Is it time to review Hine's position? These are our picks since our strong 2014 draft:

2015:
Pick 32 - Brayden Sier
Pick 58 - Tom Phillips (good pick but traded for pick 60+ 5 years later)
Pick 63 - Rupert Wills (delisted)
Pick 65 - Ben Crocker (delisted)

2016:
Pick 30 - Sam McClarty (delisted)
Pick 35 - Callum Brown
Pick 50 - Kayle Kirby (retired)
Pick 57 - Josh Daicos (good pick but gift wrapped to us)

2017:
Pick 6 - Jaidyn Stephenson (traded for a second rounder a few years later)
Pick 39 - Nathan Murphy (Has played 2 games so far)
Pick 57 - Tyler Brown (another gift wrapped player)

2018:
Pick 13 - Isaac Quaynor (gift)
Pick 29 - Will Kelly (gift)
Pick 77 - Atu Bosenavulagi (traded out as steak knives)

2019:
Pick 40 - Jay Rantall (hasn't played yet)
Pick 45 - Trent Bianco (hasn't played yet)
Pick 55 - Trey Ruscoe (has played a few games)

It's obviously even worse if you factor in the trading out of firsts for Beams + Treloar

why do you chose to focus on picks used in the draft and not picks used in trades?
It’s called List management not Draft management?
The draft is a lottery that’s why using picks to land established players is a preference for successful clubs eg Haw

 

[BEEG]

I watched Essendon tonight some real exciting talent they drafted.

How we didn't get a top 10 pick last year giving away our future 1st, Treloar, Stephenson and Phillips is the most disgusting thing from all the drama and bullshit of the last 12 months.

 

[sr36]

tyler brockman picked by hawthorn last year at pick 46 is a pretty good example of what we should be going for in the late picks.... unfortunately he's indigenous so we cant pick him...

We bid on two indigenous kids and supposedly were poised to take one before North got in a pick before us.

 

[nahnah]

why do you chose to focus on picks used in the draft and not picks used in trades?
It’s called List management not Draft management?
The draft is a lottery that’s why using picks to land established players is a preference for successful clubs eg Haw

I noted the picks used in trades make it even worse at the bottom of my post?

 

[Markfs]

We bid on two indigenous kids and supposedly were poised to take one before North got in a pick before us.

yeh i know those stories ....and other teams face the same issues. But the proof of the pudding is that we have a non-dynamic forward line which we are trying to fill with low-ranked draft picks who are, by definition, not very dynamic footballers. So we take a probable non-dynamic perth boy one year, trey ruscoe, but we dont take a possible dynamic perth boy in 2020, tyler brockman. We'll see how their careers pan out....

 

[sr36]

yeh i know those stories ....and other teams face the same issues. But the proof of the pudding is that we have a non-dynamic forward line which we are trying to fill with low-ranked draft picks who are, by definition, not very dynamic footballers. So we take a probable non-dynamic perth boy one year, trey ruscoe, but we dont take a possible dynamic perth boy in 2020, tyler brockman. We'll see how their careers pan out....

Sorry but that's just ridiculous. It's akin to this:

We took a possible dynamic Vic kid in the top 10 - Chris Egan. We took a possible dynamic Vic kid in the top 10 Jordan DeGoey. Let's see how their careers pan out.

I feel sorry for the next indigenous kid we draft, the spotlight is going to be absolutely ridiculous.

 

[sr36]

why do you chose to focus on picks used in the draft and not picks used in trades?
It’s called List management not Draft management?
The draft is a lottery that’s why using picks to land established players is a preference for successful clubs eg Haw

You don't think clubs would look at the success of their drafting in isolation? Whilst its only part of the list management picture, it's still a big part. If you don't get enough hits there, you're going to struggle.

 

[Markfs]

Sorry but that's just ridiculous. It's akin to this:

We took a possible dynamic Vic kid in the top 10 - Chris Egan. We took a possible dynamic Vic kid in the top 10 Jordan DeGoey. Let's see how their careers pan out.

I feel sorry for the next indigenous kid we draft, the spotlight is going to be absolutely ridiculous.

well obviously the pressure increases when you dont do it much. Thats the reason clubs tend to recruit multiple players from diverse backgrounds.... then it becomes commonplace...

The fact is that it's hard for indigenous players to even make it to AFL. It means that they have greater scope to do something special if they get the right environment. We can continue to go for safe picks of ordinary everyday trey ruscoe's, who are not picked earlier in the draft because they dont have anything more to give than a ordinary level of play.

It's interesting that we recruit irishmen because we think we might unearth someone special. We take a risk. I understand the other benefit of not using a draft pick, but its a similar idea.

If we continue to play safe with 40+ draft picks, then we'll continue to get good solid citizens that might fill a back pocket, although in trey's case, I'm not sure what position suits an undersized, average-paced bloke, who has a specialty which is used by a lot of schoolboy footballers of hanging out the back for an easy goal.

 

[Markfs]

Sorry but that's just ridiculous. It's akin to this:

We took a possible dynamic Vic kid in the top 10 - Chris Egan. We took a possible dynamic Vic kid in the top 10 Jordan DeGoey. Let's see how their careers pan out.

it's not akin to the comparison you make. I'm not saying we should target indigenous players in the top ten..... because the non-indigenous players in the top ten are usually dynamic.

I am saying that you target dynamic footballers when you get to pick 46, instead of picking one-paced, undersized non-dynamic footballers. And in most circumstances, the best way to get a dynamic footballer at pick 46 is to pick an indigenous player....

So it is nothing like the comparison you make....

 

[sr36]

well obviously the pressure increases when you dont do it much. Thats the reason clubs tend to recruit multiple players from diverse backgrounds.... then it becomes commonplace...

The fact is that it's hard for indigenous players to even make it to AFL. It means that they have greater scope to do something special if they get the right environment. We can continue to go for safe picks of ordinary everyday trey ruscoe's, who are not picked earlier in the draft because they dont have anything more to give than a ordinary level of play.

It's interesting that we recruit irishmen because we think we might unearth someone special. We take a risk. I understand the other benefit of not using a draft pick, but its a similar idea.

If we continue to play safe with 40+ draft picks, then we'll continue to get good solid citizens that might fill a back pocket, although in trey's case, I'm not sure what position suits an undersized, average-paced bloke, who has a specialty which is used by a lot of schoolboy footballers of hanging out the back for an easy goal.

I actually agree with you on drafting blokes with a standout attribute rather than allround solid footballers. I posted on it in a different thread. The long shots who make it are generally have an excellent physical attriubute - for us the ones who have made it are Phillips with elite endurance. Langdon despite his reputation had top shelf pace and now Noble is looking ok with excellent pace and endurance. Guys like Crocker, Sam Dwyer, Kyle Martin, Callum Brown, etc who are ok all round footballers, but athletically NQR - belong in lower leagues. I'm sure there are a few indigenous kids who have gone undrafted who would give me more hope than the NQR solid players that Hine has blown late picks on, although he changed his tune this year going for some pace with the late picks. I have little doubt that we'll draft an indigenous kid this year - and like you mentioned a hope we go at least two, just because the spotlight will burn way too bright on any one kid who has to wear our baggage in article after article.

Personally I think Trey is a better prospect than you do - moves well and I think he may be a very good kick. I don't understand why they're playing him so early though. Nor do I understand why they're playing him as a forward pocket.

 

[sr36]

it's not akin to the comparison you make. I'm not saying we should target indigenous players in the top ten..... because the non-indigenous players in the top ten are usually dynamic.

I am saying that you target dynamic footballers when you get to pick 46, instead of picking one-paced, undersized non-dynamic footballers. And in most circumstances, the best way to get a dynamic footballer at pick 46 is to pick an indigenous player....

So it is nothing like the comparison you make....

Ok bad comparison on my behalf, I should have gone with Kirk Ugle and Tom Phillips.

 

[Markfs]

Ok bad comparison on my behalf, I should have gone with Kirk Ugle and Tom Phillips.

well thats a good comparison and you end up picking a solid workman-like footballer, if you picked phillips and you get a dud in ugle - or maybe he wasnt such a dud if you read this.......the lesson being that he had a few things to overcome in life. And not all indigenous players are dynamic and I'm not sure if Derek is capable of picking the right ones....which might be one of the reasons he doesnt try that much.

Ugle earns universal respect on way to 100 games - WA Football

THE journey of Kirk Ugle to play AFL and WAFL football was far from conventional and the challenges in his life have been vast, but that makes his 100-game

www.wafootball.com.au

 

[loki04]

Not sure how you can criticise Hine for Stephenson or Phillips. His job is talent ID and he nailed those two, not his fault that the club (Guy) mismanaged the cap so badly for the past few years that they had to be traded for peanuts. And he netted us DeGoey and Crisp for Beams. The cost to bring Beams back also lands on Guy. Lastly, Daicos was selected in the open draft, so whilst he is a FS player, he was selected in the same way Phillips was, in that everyone else passed on him, so it’s unfair to say Hine’s talent ID had no bearing there.

Apparently Ned Guy got handballed most that cap mismanagement after taking over (From Hine the list manager) and was also mandated by the club to do the trades. We know the cap was screwed from years ago with that leaked picture Fix Cap. Few of the head in sand types even back then tried to claim it didn't mean the cap was screwed laughable.

But I'm sure they expected better trade outcomes, this is on Ned and alone should have alarm bells sounding.

Hine is a top recruiter but does he like sr36 stated have his parameters right selecting types or needs?

 

[loki04]

Ok bad comparison on my behalf, I should have gone with Kirk Ugle and Tom Phillips.

Ugle or Leon Davis?

 

[loki04]

Hine hasn't really had the picks to work with. The hits we've had we just needed to trade because we stuffed up our contract management, not because of bad drafting. My biggest criticism of Hine is his approach to drafting key position forwards. I feel he undervalues them. But otherwise I think Hine and our drafting is a strength of our footy department.

Hine was list Manager and doing recruitment for a few years there dont forget.

So some of the picks he should of had he traded out at very high cost when list manager. He also played a big part in why the cap got screwed in his time as list manager, people forget Ned Guy inherited it you remember that discussion we had years ago over that leaked picture on the board...

Treloar 2 pick 7s.
Murray pick 30.
Aish 2 second rounders.

Can add Beams deal too which he played a part in.
Beams 2 x firsts.

Schaz and Freeman draft really hurt us.
Refusal to draft in KPF prospects early in draft.
Refusal to look at late pick xfactor types preference for hard working gut runners (safer bets but less dynamic and lower upsides).

Again I doubt its an id problem, rather a philosophical one over what a team needs to succeed.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Freeman was traded for a very decent pick so we passed on a lot of our mistake to StKilda

 

[manicpie]

This is a classic throw the baby out with the bath water thread. I don’t get it at all. I dont think you can reasonably expect Hine and his team to pick players in the draft any better than he did/does. The guy is a freak at picking talent. That’s his job.

You can criticise him for his role as list manager, trading out picks for players etc. but they’ve since revised his role down to recruiting. And on this basis there is probably just the Geelong recruiting team that has out done him over his tenure.

Even if you pick the best talent it doesn’t mean they succeed, it’s up to the footy department to extract the best from the player...there is a lot of luck involved too ( Think Freeman and Kirby, both were stars in the making).

Geoff Walsh and the guy that preceded him briefly are the ones you should be after.

There is one tiny thing you overlooked, and that is that he continues to pick players who can't dispose of the ball properly. do you think those players came to the club as elite disposers of the ball and then we turned them into shit disposers of the ball?