Drawing a line with home intruders and self defence

[Chief]

yes, but in reality adrenaline, emotion etc easily kick in

We all know that, but it is still illegal to use excessive force. People need to control themselves. And take the consequences when they fail to do so.

 

[Chief]

What if the blokes pants were down a la the circumstances of his rape conviction?

Still not sure how the event constitutes murder as opposed to manslaughter.

I haven't said it is murder. We don't know why they are charging him for murder. But they don't have a bottomless pit of money to spend on these things so you have to imagine they think they have grounds.

If the guy ran off with, say, a laptop containing the only family photos the resident had of his dead son (completely hypothetically) and he gave chase and pushed the thief over to get the laptop back, but the guy hit his head you could say - shit, let the resident off.

If the intruder was chased away and ran from the property, having taken nothing, you can't chase him down and beat him to death in the street. That is the law and for good reason. It's not "fair" that, but for the thief breaking in, the resident wouldn't be in trouble. But these guys had a choice, it seems to me from the small amount of details.

 

[DemonTim]

Not sure how accurate, but from what i'd heard on the radio over the week, he put him in a headlock, used too much force, cut off air, the bloke died. Was there something released that he actually chased him and beat him to death?

 

[skilts]

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit - Oscar Wilde.

Maybe so, but it's immeasurably better than having no wit at all.

 

[Chief]

Not sure how accurate, but from what i'd heard on the radio over the week, he put him in a headlock, used too much force, cut off air, the bloke died. Was there something released that he actually chased him and beat him to death?

No idea, I am just talking hypothetically.

 

[DemonTim]

No idea, I am just talking hypothetically.

Yeah fair enough. Big difference between a lot of the info coming out

 

[Pie eyed]

Australia is such a backward joke where you become a criminal for stopping a criminal commit a crime against you inside your own home.

I believe that you give up your rights when you commit crimes. Once you enter somebody's home with less than savoury intentions l, then you are fair game in my opinion.

It is an absolute travisty that the criminal has more rights than the accused. Australia needs a 2nd amendment.

Australia needs to distance itself as far as possible from the US and needs to deport anyone espousing their idiocy.
Mentally deficient, red-necked, Rent-a-cops, murdering kids in parks at night using self defense as an alibi is no way for a country to exist.

 

[Doley4Life]

Australia needs to distance itself as far as possible from the US and needs to deport anyone espousing their idiocy.
Mentally deficient, red-necked, Rent-a-cops, murdering kids in parks at night using self defense as an alibi is no way for a country to exist.

Yep I'm sure kids are hanging out in parks at night have good intentions.

 

[Pie eyed]

Yep I'm sure kids are hanging out in parks at night have good intentions.

Are you suggesting they should not have the right to?
You are absolutely the type of idiot the public needs defense from.
The mental short people who assumes his/her intellect is greater than those around them who "know" what everyone else is up to. The sort of dick head who shoots and kills people based on their inner paranoia.
God help everyone if you get your voice heard.

 

[AM]

We all know that, but it is still illegal to use excessive force. People need to control themselves. And take the consequences when they fail to do so.

Citizens Arrest

Section 462A of the Crimes Act (Vic) provides that any person may use such force as is believed on reasonable grounds to be necessary to:

• prevent the commission, continuance or completion of an indictable offence; or
  
  
• lawfully arrest a person committing or suspected of committing any offence.

This applies so long as the force they use is proportionate to the particular objective.

It follows that, where a suspect is killed in the ensuing confrontation, the killing is justified if the arrestor used no more than reasonable force. The use of greater force than is reasonably necessary is unlawful.

Extract from the Law Handbook.

 

[Underdog]

Not sure how accurate, but from what i'd heard on the radio over the week, he put him in a headlock, used too much force, cut off air, the bloke died. Was there something released that he actually chased him and beat him to death?

Reports of the fight continuing out on the street and neighbours hearing people running.

 

[Procrastinator35]

The perp was an extremely big fella....Fortunately the lads in the house he invaded were a match for him.

I'd suggest that the force required to detain the perp, given his bulk, would have had to of been in extremis, if he was looking to resist....That would be reasonable grounds to argue for his demise....Though not enough to escape a manslaughter conviction.

 

[WA ROO]

Australia needs to distance itself as far as possible from the US and needs to deport anyone espousing their idiocy.
Mentally deficient, red-necked, Rent-a-cops, murdering kids in parks at night using self defense as an alibi is no way for a country to exist.

900,000+ LEO's in the US and you just tarred them all with the same brush

 

[WA ROO]

The perp was an extremely big fella....Fortunately the lads in the house he invaded were a match for him.

I'd suggest that the force required to detain the perp, given his bulk, would have had to of been in extremis, if he was looking to resist....That would be reasonable grounds to argue for his demise....Though not enough to escape a manslaughter conviction.

With training you don't need size
Some of the more average men and women I know are the most equiped to handle this type of situation

 

[Procrastinator35]

With training you don't need size
Some of the more average men and women I know are the most equipped to handle this type of situation

Still too many variables & unknowns at this stage....What if he was high on ice, for example?

 

[Pie eyed]

900,000+ LEO's in the US and you just tarred them all with the same brush

What all 900,000 of them are redneck idiots?
I knew it was a large proportion, but that stretches even my capacity to believe.

 

[Chief]

Extract from the Law Handbook.

Yes, reasonable force.

My crim lecturer had an opinion on citizens arrests: don't do it, it isn't worth it.

 

[medusala]

You're right, arming everybody to the eye teeth has made America an immeasurably better place to live.

Correlation and causation. Why are crime rates so much lower in Switzerland and Finland with high levels of gun ownership?

Why is gun crime in the US so highly correlated with Democrat voting areas? Can we conclude that Democrats are far likelier to be murderers? Same logic.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Correlation and causation. Why are crime rates so much lower in Switzerland and Finland with high levels of gun ownership?

Why is gun crime in the US so highly correlated with Democrat voting areas? Can we conclude that Democrats are far likelier to be murderers? Same logic.

Guns are too easy to get....Some kid flips out on an ice psychosis, sees the devil in his girlfriend, then shoots her dead....All this 'right to bear arms' bs hasn't helped one iota in stemming school massacres over there.

They'll fight for their 2nd amendment rights, but when Gee Dubya passes the 'patriot act' (In direct violation of the constitution); then barely a squeal of protest is heard.

Americans....Go figure.

 

[Full Wingspan]

Extract from the Law Handbook.

It's also worth drawing attention to the term "indictable offence" which is significant in this legislation.

 

[medusala]

My crim lecturer had an opinion on citizens arrests: don't do it, it isn't worth it.

Peter Tatchell may well agree.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/how-to-make-a-citizens-arrest-9075787.html

The latest attempt to make a citizen's arrest on Tony Blair is saluted by campaigner Peter Tatchell, who was beaten unconscious in his attempt to apprehend President Mugabe

The attempt by Twiggy Garcia, a London bar worker, to arrest Tony Blair last week for crimes against peace in Iraq was a brave effort to bring to justice a former Prime Minister who many people regard as having got away with waging an illegal war

 

[Furn2]

I have a samuri sword next to my bed.

Its there for decoration as it belonged to a passed friend but if someone was in the house I would pick it up for sure.

hopefully it would just be a deterent.

In this case the facts arent clear yet and for him not to apply for bail and the police to upgrade it to murder tells me theres more to it. The intruders family are claiming he was invited there so who knows.

I woke up on the couch once to find 6 foot plus islander walking through my lounge.

turned out it was some very drunk kid from the party next door who had gotten lost. At least that was his storyb but shows you cant just have the "if you are in my house you deserve anything you get attitude".

 

[Illinois Nazi]

Peter Tatchell may well agree.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/how-to-make-a-citizens-arrest-9075787.html

The latest attempt to make a citizen's arrest on Tony Blair is saluted by campaigner Peter Tatchell, who was beaten unconscious in his attempt to apprehend President Mugabe

The attempt by Twiggy Garcia, a London bar worker, to arrest Tony Blair last week for crimes against peace in Iraq was a brave effort to bring to justice a former Prime Minister who many people regard as having got away with waging an illegal war

That is completely not how citizen's arrest works.

 

[Chief]

I have a samuri sword next to my bed.

Its there for decoration as it belonged to a passed friend but if someone was in the house I would pick it up for sure.

I would get a cricket or baseball bat.

You can argue all you like about why you killed the intruder with an exotic weapon, but better to just severely bruise them with an item commonly found in the home.

 

[ep2018]

Supposedly he chased the intruder down the street and strangled him.

That's not self defence. The guy was a complete scumbag tho