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DT Rucks 2012

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leungtl said:
Rookie ruckman generally take longer to mature and rarely make immediate impacts in their rookie year (which highlights what a freak Zac is).
But historically, ruckmen have always been developed as skinny kids in the club instead of rookie drafting a ready made one from the lower leagues.
Orren is 29 (pushing 30) this year and has the body to compete. Giles is 24 which is generally when ruckmen start to peak. I don't think you can compare these two to a young Zac when projecting their ruck scores.

The thing is, if either ruckman average 70 then you're happy. I don't think anybody is expecting Giles or Orren to come out and start averaging 80+, but they're nice cash cows to upgrade to a premium ruck when the time is right. If for some reason you get smashed by injuries and have to trade elsewhere, you could do far worse than starting a ruckman who's averaging 70ish.

I'd feel much better starting Giles/Orren as my 2nd ruck and having a premium elsewhere to start with, than starting 2 premo rucks and an extra rookie-priced forward for instance.
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Zac Smith was a mature aged player aswell. 21 from memory. Had a VFL season leading in where from memory produced some big tons and avg very highly aswell. Same as the BIG O/Giles.
 
dylan123 said:
In 2011 he played 19 games for his VFL side where he averaged: 6 kicks, 6.6 handballs, 4.5 marks, 33.3 hitouts, .47 goals, .26 points, 1.63 frees for and .89 frees against (no tackle figures mentioned). This averages out to =80.04 DT.

I've never seen him play but from what I've read he's a tradition ruckman in terms of him winning plenty of hitouts but not doing much around the ground. I can't help but think that there is a chance this could fall in the AFL in a faster game. I guess we'll get a better idea of what he's capable of (if it's possible with these shithouse NAB cup rules for the rucks) in the pre season games.
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Important ommission. :)
 
leungtl said:
Rookie ruckman generally take longer to mature and rarely make immediate impacts in their rookie year (which highlights what a freak Zac is).
But historically, ruckmen have always been developed as skinny kids in the club instead of rookie drafting a ready made one from the lower leagues.
Orren is 29 (pushing 30) this year and has the body to compete. Giles is 24 which is generally when ruckmen start to peak. I don't think you can compare these two to a young Zac when projecting their ruck scores.

The thing is, if either ruckman average 70 then you're happy. I don't think anybody is expecting Giles or Orren to come out and start averaging 80+, but they're nice cash cows to upgrade to a premium ruck when the time is right. If for some reason you get smashed by injuries and have to trade elsewhere, you could do far worse than starting a ruckman who's averaging 70ish.

I'd feel much better starting Giles/Orren as my 2nd ruck and having a premium elsewhere to start with, than starting 2 premo rucks and an extra rookie-priced forward for instance.
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Tend to agree with this. All things being equal, Cox will be the upgrade target after he has had some of his starting price washed off by the GWS influx.
 

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leungtl said:
I'd feel much better starting Giles/Orren as my 2nd ruck and having a premium elsewhere to start with, than starting 2 premo rucks and an extra rookie-priced forward for instance.
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What about 2 premo rucks and an extra midfield rookie?

With the rucks its also easier with the byes to select 2 premo rucks with different bye rounds than it is in the midfield to only select 2 from R12 or in the forwards to select only 2 from the R12 and R13 bye.

Starting 3 rookies rucks is a very dangerous/risky way to go. I mean your going to have one from the get go that probably wont play. So all it takes is for one of the other 3 to get injured/rested for you to be entering shit creek.
 
McEvoy, Giles, Stephenson, Derickx

Really confident that for once my 4 rucks will have a round 1 spot wrapped up.
 
City Search said:
McEvoy, Giles, Stephenson, Derickx

Really confident that for once my 4 rucks will have a round 1 spot wrapped up.
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Derickx is training well from reports, but he was going well last year during the preseason at times aswell.

Remember Richmond now have Maric on the list, hes the standout no 1 ruck for me. Vickery a good second back up ruck who starts forward. Can they really afford to have Maric, Vickery, Derickx and JROO all in the forward line rotating, looks way to big for me and plus i think Jayden Post is a better chance to play a key post up forward from reports.

Derickx is purely backup to Vickery IMO. I could be wrong. Remember they also have Graham and Browne.
 
The Cats went taller towards the backend of the season with Ottens, West, Hawkins and Pods all selected for the finals. The old "long bombs to snake" methodology worked okay for them.

Clubs tend to follow what the previous years champs did so I wouldn't be surprised to see a few teams loading up their forward-lines with a few extra talls in 2012.
 
Keystone agony said:
What about 2 premo rucks and an extra midfield rookie?

With the rucks its also easier with the byes to select 2 premo rucks with different bye rounds than it is in the midfield to only select 2 from R12 or in the forwards to select only 2 from the R12 and R13 bye.

Starting 3 rookies rucks is a very dangerous/risky way to go. I mean your going to have one from the get go that probably wont play. So all it takes is for one of the other 3 to get injured/rested for you to be entering shit creek.
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Really If you want to go that way it isn't that hard.

Swan, Pendles from round 12 leaves Rocky, Boyd Ablett Hayes Mitchell Thompson. Surely enough options to fill up mids and only have 2 from round 12.

Forwards are a bit harder but still 2 from 12 and 2 from 13 and thats 4 premiums done.
 

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Keystone agony said:
What about 2 premo rucks and an extra midfield rookie?

With the rucks its also easier with the byes to select 2 premo rucks with different bye rounds than it is in the midfield to only select 2 from R12 or in the forwards to select only 2 from the R12 and R13 bye.

Starting 3 rookies rucks is a very dangerous/risky way to go. I mean your going to have one from the get go that probably wont play. So all it takes is for one of the other 3 to get injured/rested for you to be entering shit creek.
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I agree with your philosophy on the money being in midfield rookies, but right now I've got Ablett, Swan, Barlow and a slew of rookies. Don't think I can fit any more in there...

Like I said initially, this year is different with 2 decent rookie rucks with great job security. Would you start a rookie ruck in previous years of DT gone by? Absolutely not, that would be lunacy (although it would've worked out alright last year with Zac).

But let's move aside that conceptual stigma of starting with 3 'rookie rucks' and look at the players themselves. Do you really think Giles and Orren probably won't play for their teams if fit? Who else do Geelong and GWS have in their ruck division that could realistically push for a spot? Trent West and Brogan? Even if these teams decide to only play one ruckman, I'll take my chances.
 
leungtl said:
I agree with your philosophy on the money being in midfield rookies, but right now I've got Ablett, Swan, Barlow and a slew of rookies. Don't think I can fit any more in there...

Like I said initially, this year is different with 2 decent rookie rucks with great job security. Would you start a rookie ruck in previous years of DT gone by? Absolutely not, that would be lunacy (although it would've worked out alright last year with Zac).

But let's move aside that conceptual stigma of starting with 3 'rookie rucks' and look at the players themselves. Do you really think Giles and Orren probably won't play for their teams if fit? Who else do Geelong and GWS have in their ruck division that could realistically push for a spot? Trent West and Brogan? Even if these teams decide to only play one ruckman, I'll take my chances.
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I just dont want to be stuck with a keeper that gets 50-70 each week and I see that as a real risk for the rookies.
If I have Berger or McEvoy and Giles looks like getting better than that each week I can always downgrade one of them.
 
Keystone agony said:
I still think there will be at least 4 midfield rookies who will score more than Giles and Big O.
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I think we're all looking at this the wrong way. It's a given that the midfiled is where you'll find a higher number of rookie priced options. The issue is not whether your MID rookies are better than your RUCK rookies. It's a question of who are the best rookies across all positions. My feeling at this stage is there are fewer prospects in the FWDs and you may struggle to find 4 solid "certainties". By starting with a Giles on the ground and keeping a 3 premo + Hayes / Barlow in the MIDs, you can significantly reduce your exposure to being stretched in the FWDs. I've played around with one structure which has this set up and has Jono Brown in F6 and Porps in F7. Probably way too much cash in the FWDs but it's just an option if no rookie FWDs present themselves. It could also facilitate loading up on all the "cusp of premium" FWD honey pots presenting themselves this year... ;)

Ultimately, like most selection dilemmas, we'll know a lot more after the NAB.
 
Wheedus said:
I think we're all looking at this the wrong way. It's a given that the midfiled is where you'll find a higher number of rookie priced options. The issue is not whether your MID rookies are better than your RUCK rookies. It's a question of who are the best rookies across all positions. My feeling at this stage is there are fewer prospects in the FWDs and you may struggle to find 4 solid "certainties". By starting with a Giles on the ground and keeping a 3 premo + Hayes / Barlow in the MIDs, you can significantly reduce your exposure to being stretched in the FWDs. I've played around with one structure which has this set up and has Jono Brown in F6 and Porps in F7. Probably way too much cash in the FWDs but it's just an option if no rookie FWDs present themselves. It could also facilitate loading up on all the "cusp of premium" FWD honey pots presenting themselves this year... ;)

Ultimately, like most selection dilemmas, we'll know a lot more after the NAB.
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I currently have Giles as my 2nd ruck, and it is definitely helping the other areas of my team. It enables me to have 5 premiums in the forwards and backs + 3 premiums in the mids + Barlow. With Giles I know I'm going to get excellent job security + a solid average of 55-70.

I don't think you can get that in the forward and back rookies.
 
Reducing your exposure to the back and forward rookies seems logical, but what happens if Giles and Stephenson only average 50 odd? It will be at least 6 rounds until you have cash 'til you upgrade them to a fallen prem ruck, and meanwhile you're leaking points.

On the plus side, you can have a look at those rucks that look like taking their game to the next level.

This year looks like been the best in the couple of years I've played. Much more variety in the number of strategies and players been considered.
 

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Selecting Giles as your second ruck ultimately means less points from the get go by having less rookie mids and more ruck rookies. It also means that you have a 4th ruck that is nothing will not earn you enough money and will not play enough games and come the byes rounds you may as well lock in 2 zero's if you haven't been able to upgrade him which you wont be able to because hes played no games and made no money. Your relying on alot of ruck to fluke a 4th rookie ruck thats gonna play, it meas you have 3 rucks for the bye rounds (2 are O and Giles) and the other is a premium like Mumford. So you cop a zero in round 12 or whatever bye it will be. An injury to either Big O or Giles in this situation is going to kill you.

Less points, less cash cows, less money. Its not about picking more and more rookie forwards where the weak point seems to be before NAB. Its about limiting yourself to picking to many rookies in this area as this is where no value lies, so you shouldn't be picking from this area too much anyway.
 
Keystone agony said:
Derickx is training well from reports, but he was going well last year during the preseason at times aswell.

Remember Richmond now have Maric on the list, hes the standout no 1 ruck for me. Vickery a good second back up ruck who starts forward. Can they really afford to have Maric, Vickery, Derickx and JROO all in the forward line rotating, looks way to big for me and plus i think Jayden Post is a better chance to play a key post up forward from reports.

Derickx is purely backup to Vickery IMO. I could be wrong. Remember they also have Graham and Browne.
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Points taken but being a Richmond supporter it appears that Derickx is ready to take over Miller in the 3rd tall role. That would mean JR8 and Derickx in the forward line with Vickery/Maric rotating through the forward line and ruck. As for Jayden Post (and Ben Griffiths for that matter) it seems they are ear-marked for Key Defence positions for at least the beginning of the season.
 
City Search said:
Points taken but being a Richmond supporter it appears that Derickx is ready to take over Miller in the 3rd tall role. That would mean JR8 and Derickx in the forward line with Vickery/Maric rotating through the forward line and ruck. As for Jayden Post (and Ben Griffiths for that matter) it seems they are ear-marked for Key Defence positions for at least the beginning of the season.
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Well ill wait and see on his NAB and how they lineup ect. Personally cant see them playing 3 rucks in the forward line at the same time and JROO. Opposition defenses would have a dynasty getting it out and finding targets and running them off their feet. Exactly what Luke Hodges of this world love.

I already have my own little plan, that ill likely keep to.
 
Keystone agony said:
Selecting Giles as your second ruck ultimately means less points from the get go by having less rookie mids and more ruck rookies. It also means that you have a 4th ruck that is nothing will not earn you enough money and will not play enough games and come the byes rounds you may as well lock in 2 zero's if you haven't been able to upgrade him which you wont be able to because hes played no games and made no money. Your relying on alot of ruck to fluke a 4th rookie ruck thats gonna play, it meas you have 3 rucks for the bye rounds (2 are O and Giles) and the other is a premium like Mumford. So you cop a zero in round 12 or whatever bye it will be. An injury to either Big O or Giles in this situation is going to kill you.

Less points, less cash cows, less money. Its not about picking more and more rookie forwards where the weak point seems to be before NAB. Its about limiting yourself to picking to many rookies in this area as this is where no value lies, so you shouldn't be picking from this area too much anyway.
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You missed the point. Who said anything about picking a bunny 4th ruck?? A three rookie priced ruck strategy is only going to be viable if a 3rd option (eg Derrykx or Rowe) presents himself as a likely starter and, if anything, that will help your structure during the bye rounds given most of the premo rucks are either R11 or R12. As I said above "the issue is not whether your MID rookies are better than your RUCK rookies. It's a question of who are the best rookies across all positions". Let's say Derrykx is in the best 22 and only three viable rookie priced FWDs are named for Rd 1. Do you still pick a 4th in the hope that he might get a game at some point?? A zero on your FWD bench in the early rounds isn't going to generate a whole lot of cash.
 

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