Easy Grammar Fix

[The Royal Sampler]

By special request of The Royal Sampler, I've updated the OP on the knotty issue of the use of that/which.

Thanks Snag, very educational. I'm just reading up on the difference between the subject and the object of a sentence now, it's been a long time (if ever?) since I learned this stuff. Most of my grammar comes from being a parrot.

 

[bzparkes]

Generally I find BF posters to be an articulate and opinionated lot. They create their BF persona out of language, so they need to be able to use language effectively. Good grammar tends to be an optional extra. Sadly, that's not the case when it comes to exams and assignments; hence this thread.

You must admit though, the majority of posters on here have such bad grammar and spelling that it feels like school holidays all the time

 

[Snag Breac]

Thanks Snag, very educational. I'm just reading up on the difference between the subject and the object of a sentence now, it's been a long time (if ever?) since I learned this stuff. Most of my grammar comes from being a parrot.

That's where it should come from. It's something we would ideally learn at school and in the community.

 

[Snag Breac]

You must admit though, the majority of posters on here have such bad grammar and spelling that it feels like school holidays all the time

I know what you mean, but I think that's just the nature of posting; people haven't the time to check what they've written, and it seems hardly worth the bother anyway. But if younger people are regularly exposed to incorrect grammar and spelling, it can lead to a loss of confidence in their writing for formal situations.

 

[thatday]

I know what you mean, but I think that's just the nature of posting; people haven't the time to check what they've written, and it seems hardly worth the bother anyway. But if younger people are regularly exposed to incorrect grammar and spelling, it can lead to a loss of confidence in their writing for formal situations.

Thats why i took note of this thread

 

[ShepBoy]

My favourite is people saying "it all goes well for the new season" for things are looking good, when in fact, the expression is, "it augurs well for the new season".

 

[Snag Breac]

My favourite is people saying "it all goes well for the new season" for things are looking good, when in fact, the expression is, "it augurs well for the new season".

Ah! I think I've heard this expressed as a wish, and thought it sounded a bit odd. An intriguing observation!

 

[DWil6]

Ah! I think I've heard this expressed as a wish, and thought it sounded a bit odd. An intriguing observation!

The Augur (pl: augurs) was a priest and official in the classical world, especially ancient Rome. His main role was to interpret the will of the gods by studying the flight of the birds (flying in groups/alone, what noises they make as they fly, direction of flight and what kind of birds they are), known as "taking the auspices." The ceremony and function of the augur was central to any major undertaking in Roman society--public or private--including matters of war, commerce, and religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augur

 

[Snag Breac]

The Augur (pl: augurs) was a priest and official in the classical world, especially ancient Rome. His main role was to interpret the will of the gods by studying the flight of the birds (flying in groups/alone, what noises they make as they fly, direction of flight and what kind of birds they are), known as "taking the auspices." The ceremony and function of the augur was central to any major undertaking in Roman society--public or private--including matters of war, commerce, and religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augur

This obsessive posting of dicky defs augurs decidedly ill, DW!

And I still haven't posted on the Dangling but. Too hot for grammar tonight.

 

[DWil6]

This obsessive posting of dicky defs augurs decidedly ill, DW!

I knew you'd appreciate my efforts!

 

[Snag Breac]

My favourite is people saying "it all goes well for the new season" for things are looking good, when in fact, the expression is, "it augurs well for the new season".

ShepBoy, are you sure you're not the writer John Harms? See his article in the current edition of the Age Green Guide; he features this very example.

 

[Snag Breac]

I think it was Jabso who raised the thorny issue of The Dangling BUT. But I forgot about it, or, I forgot about it but....

I grew up using this little quirk, and don't find it at all daggy. In fact I quite like the additional shade of meaning it suggests - something unresolved. When I came to Australia I noticed that it was considered very poor form and was intrigued.

I wondered if it was a hang-over from the linguistic change from Irish to English that had then been carried out to Oz on diseased famine ships. People might have wanted to disassociate themselves from anything that betrayed their lowly origins, such as the use of the Dangling BUT.

I consulted a relative - a great Gaelic scholar, and here's his reply. He calls it a Hanging BUT;

I think your Hanging But is a storm in a teacup. I don't hear it very often now, but in my opinion it is quite legitimate in a conversational context. When writing, one would have to use "however" in the final position, although texting could be arguably be regarded as conversation.

In Irish, "áfach" is the equivalent of "however" and "ach" the equivalent of "but". I have never heard them interchanged, however. "Afach" always comes at the end of the sentence, and "ach" at the beginning.

 

[mdc]

I think it was Jabso who raised the thorny issue of The Dangling BUT. But I forgot about it, or, I forgot about it but....

I grew up using this little quirk, and don't find it at all daggy. In fact I quite like the additional shade of meaning it suggests - something unresolved. When I came to Australia I noticed that it was considered very poor form and was intrigued.

I wondered if it was a hang-over from the linguistic change from Irish to English that had then been carried out to Oz on diseased famine ships. People might have wanted to disassociate themselves from anything that betrayed their lowly origins, such as the use of the Dangling BUT.

I consulted a relative - a great Gaelic scholar, and here's his reply. He calls it a Hanging BUT;

I think your Hanging But is a storm in a teacup. I don't hear it very often now, but in my opinion it is quite legitimate in a conversational context. When writing, one would have to use "however" in the final position, although texting could be arguably be regarded as conversation.

In Irish, "áfach" is the equivalent of "however" and "ach" the equivalent of "but". I have never heard them interchanged, however. "Afach" always comes at the end of the sentence, and "ach" at the beginning.

Interesting stuff SB - I'd always thought it was an Australianism, and a recent one at that. I certainly can't recall seeing it in any written dialogue that I've read.

I will propose though, that instead of calling it a hanging/dangling but, we just refer to it as a "butt", which seems apt considering its position in a sentence. It would be the 15th entry for butt (n.) in the OED

 

[Snag Breac]

WARNING
​

Avoid the use of the word "nob" on BF.

In particular, do not use it in terms such as 'to nail the nob on the head"
in an effort to employ colourful language, as has been done elsewhere.
Such usage has been known to cause watery eyes and wincing in the male of the species.

Mea maxima culpa.​

 

[ShepBoy]

ShepBoy, are you sure you're not the writer John Harms? See his article in the current edition of the Age Green Guide; he features this very example.

No I am not and I dont know Phil Dimitriadis!

 

[ShepBoy]

I also hate the term "the proof is in the pudding". It isnt. The saying is, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

Makes sense, doesn't it?

 

[Snag Breac]

Interesting stuff SB - I'd always thought it was an Australianism, and a recent one at that. I certainly can't recall seeing it in any written dialogue that I've read.

No, I've never seen it in print, probably because it's more of a verbal mannerism that would lose its effect in transcription.

I will propose though, that instead of calling it a hanging/dangling but, we just refer to it as a "butt", which seems apt considering its position in a sentence. It would be the 15th entry for butt (n.) in the OED

Would it be excellent if it were, and if the OED cited BF as the source?

 

[Magnus the Magpie]

I've no real evidence but the 'dangling but' seems to me to be more of a NSW and (particularly) Qld thing - possibly one of the few instances of a regional dialectical quirk we have.

 

[Snag Breac]

I also hate the term "the proof is in the pudding". It isnt. The saying is, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

Makes sense, doesn't it?

I don't think I've ever heard that form, Shepboy. You're quite right. The currants, raisins, sultanas and mixed peel will be in the pudding, and the quality of the end product will be tested by scoffing a slice.

 

[Snag Breac]

I've no real evidence but the 'dangling but' seems to me to be more of a NSW and (particularly) Qld thing - possibly one of the few instances of a regional dialectical quirk we have.

We'll probably never know now, as it's falling out of use from Belfast to Ballarat and Bundaberg. Perhaps we've done something here to record its existence before it passes from the language, and some future Ph.D student of linguistics will mine this thread for our interesting observations.

Collingwood BF - Contributing to the Knowledge Bank.

 

[ShepBoy]

I don't think I've ever heard that form, Shepboy. You're quite right. The currants, raisins, sultanas and mixed peel will be in the pudding, and the quality of the end product will be tested by scoffing a slice.

MOre on this

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pro1.htm
PROOF OF THE PUDDING

(The version of this quote) has been appearing with increasing frequency in books and newspapers........As another recent instance, the Boston Herald had this in its issue of 3 February 2004: “While the team’s first Super Bowl victory back in 2002 could be explained away by some skeptics as a fluke, the second victory is the proof in the pudding in cementing the Pats’ status as the cream of the NFL crop.“

But examples can be found in American newspapers at least as far back as the 1920s and it became relatively common from the middle 1950s onwards. Slightly different versions also turn up from time to time, such as this about a charity considering its links with Michael Jackson, “Until there’s some proof in the pudding, we will continue to remain neutral” (The Grand Rapids Press, 30 November 2003), and about an election in Canada, “I guess that the proof in the pudding will be on Oct. 2” (Toronto Star, 29 September 2003).

The principal trouble with the proof is in the pudding is that it makes no sense. What has happened is that writers half-remember the proverb as the proof of the pudding, which is also unintelligible unless you know the full form from which the tag was taken, and have modified it in various ways in unsuccessful attempts to turn it into something sensible.
They wouldn’t make this mistake if they knew two important facts. The full proverb is indeed the proof of the pudding is in the eating and proof has the sense of “test” (as it also has, or used to have, in phrases such as proving-ground and printer’s proof). The proverb literally says that you won’t know whether food has been cooked properly until you try it. Or, putting it figuratively, don’t assume that something is in order or believe what you are told, but judge the matter by testing it; it’s much the same philosophy as in seeing is believing and actions speak louder than words.

The proverb is ancient — it has been traced back to 1300 and was popularised by Cervantes in his Don Quixote of 1605. It’s sad that it has lasted so long, only to be corrupted in modern times.

 

[sirlothie]

MOre on this

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pro1.htm
PROOF OF THE PUDDING

(The version of this quote) has been appearing with increasing frequency in books and newspapers........As another recent instance, the Boston Herald had this in its issue of 3 February 2004: “While the team’s first Super Bowl victory back in 2002 could be explained away by some skeptics as a fluke, the second victory is the proof in the pudding in cementing the Pats’ status as the cream of the NFL crop.“

But examples can be found in American newspapers at least as far back as the 1920s and it became relatively common from the middle 1950s onwards. Slightly different versions also turn up from time to time, such as this about a charity considering its links with Michael Jackson, “Until there’s some proof in the pudding, we will continue to remain neutral” (The Grand Rapids Press, 30 November 2003), and about an election in Canada, “I guess that the proof in the pudding will be on Oct. 2” (Toronto Star, 29 September 2003).

The principal trouble with the proof is in the pudding is that it makes no sense. What has happened is that writers half-remember the proverb as the proof of the pudding, which is also unintelligible unless you know the full form from which the tag was taken, and have modified it in various ways in unsuccessful attempts to turn it into something sensible.
They wouldn’t make this mistake if they knew two important facts. The full proverb is indeed the proof of the pudding is in the eating and proof has the sense of “test” (as it also has, or used to have, in phrases such as proving-ground and printer’s proof). The proverb literally says that you won’t know whether food has been cooked properly until you try it. Or, putting it figuratively, don’t assume that something is in order or believe what you are told, but judge the matter by testing it; it’s much the same philosophy as in seeing is believing and actions speak louder than words.

The proverb is ancient — it has been traced back to 1300 and was popularised by Cervantes in his Don Quixote of 1605. It’s sad that it has lasted so long, only to be corrupted in modern times.

I don't see the problem, sure it has been bastardised and cut short in some circles but fact is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" is just a touch too long to use in conversation. So to say 'the proof is in the pudding' is just a shortcut to a phrase everybody knows what it means anyway...

One of my favourites is "Give me the cake, not the recipe", when people are telling me something and going into too much mundane detail and that's what people are doing when they say 'the proof is in the pudding'.

'The proof of the pudding is in the eating' is too preachy and it's a saying that has been said to death a million times over so it ain't exactly profound anymore so it doesn't deserve a full sentence to spit out this tired metaphor because everyone hears it 5 times a day so they get the gist...

 

[ShepBoy]

I don't see the problem, sure it has been bastardised and cut short in some circles but fact is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" is just a touch too long to use in conversation. So to say 'the proof is in the pudding' is just a shortcut to a phrase everybody knows what it means anyway...

One of my favourites is "Give me the cake, not the recipe", when people are telling me something and going into too much mundane detail and that's what people are doing when they say 'the proof is in the pudding'.

'The proof of the pudding is in the eating' is too preachy and it's a saying that has been said to death a million times over so it ain't exactly profound anymore so it doesn't deserve a full sentence to spit out this tired metaphor because everyone hears it 5 times a day so they get the gist...

If it is a saying that has been done to the death, dont say it. But if you are going to say it, then say it properly. They arent shortening, they are revealing their ignornance in that they dont know it.

Preachy? If that is your criticism of it then it is preachy whatever version you use, but that is not the point of this thread.

 

[sirlothie]

If it is a saying that has been done to the death, dont say it. But if you are going to say it, then say it properly. They arent shortening, they are revealing their ignornance in that they dont know it.

Preachy? If that is your criticism of it then it is preachy whatever version you use, but that is not the point of this thread.

'The proof is in the pudding' may not be the correct version of the metaphor, but it is also not bad grammar so your post is also not related to the point of the thread if you wish to get technical.

 

[Jabso]

Interesting stuff SB - I'd always thought it was an Australianism, and a recent one at that. I certainly can't recall seeing it in any written dialogue that I've read.

I will propose though, that instead of calling it a hanging/dangling but, we just refer to it as a "butt", which seems apt considering its position in a sentence. It would be the 15th entry for butt (n.) in the OED

I believe it is an ethnic-Australianism that has spread to everyone.