EPL Matchday 4

[Zidane98]

OK fair enough.

I'd love to know what your definition of a deflection is then.

That ball is clearly on target then clearly off target following the deflection off his leg.

The fact that people are stating his arm is so far away from his body, contradicts the fact that it could have been a small deflection.



Yes, but as stated above, it's a grey area as to whether it would be handball under today's interpretation.

Its not. Arm up = automatic handball.

Maupay / Koch are 100% penalties under any iteration of the handball rules.

 

[Procrastinator35]

What handball?

In the above it does take a deflection but it doesn't meaningfully change the direction of the ball. His arm is out unnecessarily, pretty clear handball.

What a weird thing to bring up, yes I was a ref about four years ago for a season and knew the rules as they were written then, and I would have paid the above as a handball penalty under the rules then, and under the rules now.

The Ball goes between his legs first taking a deflection off them, before hitting his fist behind his body....That is never hand-ball in any man's language.

Pure incidental & accidental contact....The arm is part of the body.

Ludicrous decision.

 

[SM]

OK fair enough.

I'd love to know what your definition of a deflection is then.

That ball is clearly on target then clearly off target following the deflection off his leg.

The fact that people are stating his arm is so far away from his body, contradicts the fact that it could have been a small deflection.



Yes, but as stated above, it's a grey area as to whether it would be handball under today's interpretation.

To me a deflection that wouldn't lead to a penalty (but I've seen given under both interpretations of the rule) is if the ball is kicked at a player and deflects of their foot up to a hand that's down by their side.

A really great example of this (albeit from ages ago) was given against Elmohamady against Spurs in the PL. Can't find footage of it annoyingly.

If a player has an arm outstretched a ball strikes their chest/thigh and continues on and strikes their hand, to me that isn't a significant deviation and the player's outstretched arm also indicates it should be a pen. You're making yourself bigger and running the risk of handling the ball. You take the risk, you suffer the consequences.

 

[SM]

The Ball goes between his legs first taking a deflection off them, before hitting his fist behind his body....That is never hand-ball in any man's language.

Pure incidental & accidental contact....The arm is part of the body.

Ludicrous decision.

The arm which is away from the body, this is a handball, not quite sure how this is being argued. Maupay and Koch pens would be pens under any interpretation of the rules and strange that they are even mentioned in the same breath as the Dier etc. pens.

 

[Pykie]

To me a deflection that wouldn't lead to a penalty (but I've seen given under both interpretations of the rule) is if the ball is kicked at a player and deflects of their foot up to a hand that's down by their side.

A really great example of this (albeit from ages ago) was given against Elmohamady against Spurs in the PL. Can't find footage of it annoyingly.

If a player has an arm outstretched a ball strikes their chest/thigh and continues on and strikes their hand, to me that isn't a significant deviation and the player's outstretched arm also indicates it should be a pen. You're making yourself bigger and running the risk of handling the ball. You take the risk, you suffer the consequences.

The ball didn't continue on.

It deflected 23 degrees by my very basic linear calculations. Which is a huge amount. Kicking the ball on a 16 degree angle from the penalty spot will miss the goals completely. This ball very likely would have ended up closer to the corner flag than the left upright.

 

[Procrastinator35]

The arm which is away from the body, this is a handball, not quite sure how this is being argued. Maupay and Koch pens would be pens under any interpretation of the rules and strange that they are even mentioned in the same breath as the Dier etc. pens.

His arm is behind his body & out of the way of the direct firing-line of the ball....It only strikes it once the ball passes between his legs & takes a deflection off them.....Pure unadulterated stupidity to cite that as a penalty....Play-on in any other part of the pitch.

Some common-bloody sense would be nice.

I refereed for over a decade & would never even consider that as hand-ball - even on my worst days.

 

[Zidane98]

The ball didn't continue on.

It deflected 23 degrees by my very basic linear calculations. Which is a huge amount. Kicking the ball on a 16 degree angle from the penalty spot will miss the goals. This ball very likely would have ended up closer to the corner flag than the left upright.

View attachment 974615

lol come on dude that's basically goalkeeping. stonewall penalty.

 

[SM]

The ball didn't continue on.

It deflected 23 degrees by my very basic linear calculations. Which is a huge amount. Kicking the ball on a 16 degree angle from the penalty spot will miss the goals. This ball very likely would have ended up closer to the corner flag than the left upright.

View attachment 974615

That's all very nice analysis you have done, it's still a pen.

 

[Loonerty]

Is there another angle of it?

 

[Loonerty]

Actually, found this on PL site

 

[Pykie]

lol come on dude that's basically goalkeeping. stonewall penalty.

Yeah, it's so simple it's not a penalty in any competition in world football, except the PL.

It's not a pen in the CL, World Cup etc.

That's all very nice analysis you have done, it's still a pen.

Yes, under current rules. Rules which have just been altered. Hence Lunchlady Doris original post. Does it revert to rules governining the rest of the world (which you don't seem to understand) or is it still the PL adhoc handball rule?

For the previous 100+ years (other than the last 3 matchdays) it's not a penalty.

It's not a penalty in any European or International Competition.

I'm glad you have now at least admitted you are wrong conceded it has deflected. Live, you were shouting down Leeds supporters because apparently it brushed the fabric on his shorts.

Actually, found this on PL site
View attachment 974649

Straight from UEFA and the rules that govern the CL. It basically defines it as "not deliberate"

 

[Zidane98]

Yeah, it's so simple it's not a penalty in any competition in world football, except the PL.

It's not a pen in the CL, World Cup etc.



Yes, under current rules. Rules which have just been altered.

For the previous 100+ years (other than the last 3 matchdays) it's not a penalty.

It's not a penalty in any European or International Competition.





Straight from UEFA and the rules that govern the CL. It basically defines it as "not deliberate"

View attachment 974660

Jesus I can't believe you're bringing this up again.

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct | IFAB

Football foul rules, handball football rules, types of fouls in football

www.theifab.com

For the 300th time the deflection is irrelevant if the arm is in an unnatural position.


It is an offence if a player:

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
• after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity

• touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
  • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
  • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

• directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
• directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
• if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
• when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body

This should end it for you.

 

[Zidane98]

Koch is a penalty under any competition or any version of the handball rule, end of story.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

If you look at the rules a deflection is irrelevant if arms are in an unnatural position. No pen against Koch if theres a deflection and his arms are by his side.

I understand the rules, just trying to understand the change. I've also read that there will be consideration given to deflections that cause the handball. From the article posted above :

The penalty Matt Doherty conceded for Spurs at Southampton would most likely not be awarded under the revised interpretation, as the ball rebounded off a teammate's heel and Doherty was close to the ricochet.

Premier League bows to pressure over handball and will show more leniency over penalty decisions

Premier League referees soften their interpretation of the handball law after six penalties were controversially awarded in the first three rounds.

www.espn.com.au

I don't remember the specifics of the Doherty call, were his arms by his side?

In the above it does take a deflection but it doesn't meaningfully change the direction of the ball. His arm is out unnecessarily, pretty clear handball.

It took a huge deflection and was no longer travelling toward goal, anyone should be able to see that.

The difference is they are not going to give handball against a player who has the ball played into them at close range with their arms by their side even if they move towards the ball. Ie the Everton pen against Palace.

Ward did not have his arms by his side. If it's going to come down to the refs deciding the degree of arm raising, this is going to be a debacle.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Just found this:





Not seeing how that is any different to Koch, yet the article states it won't be a penalty now.

Unless a deflection off a teammate is different to your own body, which would be ridiculous.

 

[Zidane98]

I understand the rules, just trying to understand the change. I've also read that there will be consideration given to deflections that cause the handball. From the article posted above :

Premier League bows to pressure over handball and will show more leniency over penalty decisions

Premier League referees soften their interpretation of the handball law after six penalties were controversially awarded in the first three rounds.

www.espn.com.au

I don't remember the specifics of the Doherty call, were his arms by his side?



It took a huge deflection and was no longer travelling toward goal, anyone should be able to see that.



Ward did not have his arms by his side. If it's going to come down to the refs deciding the degree of arm raising, this is going to be a debacle.

Ward had his arms in a natural position for a player who is setting himself to defend and they weren't raised. That's the key difference here.


There's no change per se in the rule, just how strictly it is interpreted. Referees will not penalise a player that has his arms by his side in a natural position even if he moves towards the ball.


Any player with their arms raised will have a penalty called against them, has always been the case since the beginning of football.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

As for Ward which apparently is no longer a penalty either

Ward had his arms in a natural position for a player who is setting himself to defend and they weren't raised. That's the key difference here.


There's no change per se in the rule, just how strictly it is interpreted. Referees will not penalise a player that has his arms by his side in a natural position even if he moves towards the ball.


Any player with their arms raised will have a penalty called against them, has always been the case since the beginning of football.

So Doherty WOULD actually be a penalty still?

And Ward by the way:



Where is natural and where isn't?

 

[Loonerty]

Just found this:

View attachment 974679

View attachment 974675

Not seeing how that is any different to Koch, yet the article states it won't be a penalty now.

Unless a deflection off a teammate is different to your own body, which would be ridiculous.

I think it's to do with the distance. The Salah was further away from Koch than the Southampton player is from Doherty here.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Love the quote above about if Koch was deliberately playing at the ball it's not a pen, unbelievable, it's been kicked at him like a rocket from 5m away.

 

[SM]

Yeah, it's so simple it's not a penalty in any competition in world football, except the PL.

It's not a pen in the CL, World Cup etc.



Yes, under current rules. Rules which have just been altered. Hence Lunchlady Doris original post. Does it revert to rules governining the rest of the world (which you don't seem to understand) or is it still the PL adhoc handball rule?

For the previous 100+ years (other than the last 3 matchdays) it's not a penalty.

It's not a penalty in any European or International Competition.

I'm glad you have now at least admitted you are wrong conceded it has deflected. Live, you were shouting down Leeds supporters because apparently it brushed the fabric on his shorts.





Straight from UEFA and the rules that govern the CL. It basically defines it as "not deliberate"

View attachment 974660

Everywhere else in the world? Have a look at how many handball pens are given in Italy, Spain, etc. and then consider the fact this isn't a PL rule change this is the governing body of the game. Do they just govern the PL now?

PMSL.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I think it's to do with the distance. The Salah was further away from Koch than the Southampton player is from Doherty here.

The distance between Koch's leg and his arm is pretty short.

This is going to be good to watch.

 

[Zidane98]

Just found this:

View attachment 974679

View attachment 974675

Not seeing how that is any different to Koch, yet the article states it won't be a penalty now.

Unless a deflection off a teammate is different to your own body, which would be ridiculous.

touches the ball with their hand/arm when:

• the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
• the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm

Koch didn't deliberately play the ball.

As for Ward which apparently is no longer a penalty either


So Doherty WOULD actually be a penalty still?

And Ward by the way:

View attachment 974684

Where is natural and where isn't?

That's an entirely normal stance for a player setting themselves to defend.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

touches the ball with their hand/arm when:

• the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
• the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm

Koch didn't deliberately play the ball.

Neither did Doherty though? Did you quote the wrong part?

That's an entirely normal stance for a player setting themselves to defend.

You're talking degrees of difference here, interesting.

 

[Zidane98]

Neither did Doherty though? Did you quote the wrong part?



You're talking degrees of difference here, interesting.

Doherty had his arm raised, that would be the main reason it will still be given.

Not degrees of difference at all. Arm raised = penalty. Its really not difficult to understand.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Doherty had his arm raised, that would be the main reason it will still be given.

No, the article stated it wouldn't be given. That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around.

Not degrees of difference at all. Arm raised = penalty. Its really not difficult to understand.

Sorry but I would say Ward's arm is raised there. Especially when you watch the video the arm raises further from his body and toward the ball as it travels toward him.