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Id agree but i reckn Geelong and St Kilda will be hard to ignore. I reckon we might get 3 teams in 2019.
2019 - Geelong, St Kilda, Gold Coast
2021 - Hawthorn, West Coast, Sydney
2023 - Essendon, Richmond, Port Adelaide
AFLW 2019 Expansion - Welcome North/Tas and Geelong (WCE, GC, Rich, Stk in 2020)
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Id agree but i reckn Geelong and St Kilda will be hard to ignore. I reckon we might get 3 teams in 2019.
2019 - Geelong, St Kilda, Gold Coast
2021 - Hawthorn, West Coast, Sydney
2023 - Essendon, Richmond, Port Adelaide
AFL doesn't like odd numbers
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- #128
thats true, which is a pity because it would partly solve their second bye problem in the main league
Can't see Hawthorn getting one before Richmond considering Hawks didn't even bother to put in a bid for the initial season.
I agree, they could really been flexible with the fixtures. Reduce 6 day breaks, and more Thursday night games.
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Im not sure thats going to matter by that time
Random thoughts for me do AFL charge license fees like for Men's expansion clubs.
Would Simmonds Stadium be to big for women's football?
The beauty has been some of the boutique stadiums. Liked Princess Park, Western Oval, Norwood, Thebarton and TIO, while Fremantle okay. Hated Casey, Gosch's Paddock and Stathpine parklands. Would like Brisbane to move to Showgrounds.
Tickets maybe free but who owns pouring rights and food concessions. Venues or clubs who hire ovals. In the past it was Canteen and bar.
Who hires ovals AFL or clubs.
Does Saint Kilda have to wait for Moorabin redevelopment.
Would Simmonds Stadium be to big for women's football?
The beauty has been some of the boutique stadiums. Liked Princess Park, Western Oval, Norwood, Thebarton and TIO, while Fremantle okay. Hated Casey, Gosch's Paddock and Stathpine parklands. Would like Brisbane to move to Showgrounds.
Tickets maybe free but who owns pouring rights and food concessions. Venues or clubs who hire ovals. In the past it was Canteen and bar.
Who hires ovals AFL or clubs.
Does Saint Kilda have to wait for Moorabin redevelopment.
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- #133
Caroline Wilson said the other night that the AFL has begun seeking match costs from venues from the JLT series, and I presume the same from womens footy venues, so these games are much less lucrative for the clubs who own the facilities than before.
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THE AFL Women’s competition could be in for “aggressive” growth in 2019, according to league boss Gillon McLachlan.
The chief executive has been open in his desire not to grow the eight-team league next season, instead in favour of “consolidating” the success of AFLW01.
“I do think that (more than two teams could come in in 2019),” he said.
“We haven’t made a final decision but my view is out there that I think we need to consolidate next year and I think the quality of the game will increase remarkably.
“I think we’ll be then prepared to do something hopefully aggressive in 2019.”
http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/af...9/news-story/85daeb8f82f2c586cb70e5a8b8533ff9
The chief executive has been open in his desire not to grow the eight-team league next season, instead in favour of “consolidating” the success of AFLW01.
“I do think that (more than two teams could come in in 2019),” he said.
“We haven’t made a final decision but my view is out there that I think we need to consolidate next year and I think the quality of the game will increase remarkably.
“I think we’ll be then prepared to do something hopefully aggressive in 2019.”
http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/af...9/news-story/85daeb8f82f2c586cb70e5a8b8533ff9
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Tasmania's AFL chief executive Rob Auld said he was confident the state would have its own women's side up and running for the 2019 AFLW season. The preference is for a standalone Tasmanian team, but a partnership with an existing AFL club — most likely the Kangaroos or Hawthorn — who have deals to play home games in the state up until 2021, is also on the drawing board.
Garlic muncher
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Not sure how successful a stand alone womens team can be, piggy backing off a mens team playing at traditional grounds seems to work.
I guess we will find out.
What a frigging disgrace.
Mat Mann
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- #138
Both St.Kilda and Geelong offer something different and effect a greater area than say North and Richmond. the Southern Region of Melbourne is already well developed and has one of, if not the most, numbers of female participants in Vic.
Same goes with Geelong, being out of Melbourne they bring a new dimension and offer a larger region to effect uptake than those 2 clubs.
Geelong along with the Saints are well advanced in plans for their womens teams, Saints academy team plays the ADF team this Saturday at Etihad, as a pre cursor to the Saints v Geelong game. Geelong I believe has a team entering the VFLW this year? Hawks as well i believe
as for expansion itself, surely getting the teams running and having the resources for these teams( talent pools ) to develop the talent should be far more of a priority than just trying to skim the cream of an immature pathway.
Haven't seen any mention this article yet
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...enew-push-for-aflw-teams-20170417-gvmkt2.html
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- #139
THE AFLW competition should realistically look to expand ahead of the 2019 season, according to one of Victoria’s leading women’s football figures.
St Kilda and Geelong have been particularly vocal in pushing to be a part of the competition next year, having missed out on licences for the inaugural season.
But Darren Flanigan, who manages AFL Victoria’s women’s football and academy programs, says while he would like to see expansion happen as quickly as possible, realistically, holding off for one more year would improve the overall talent pool both this year and going forward.
“I can understand where (the AFL would be) coming from where they just want to consolidate,” Flanigan told foxfooty.com.au.
“Was the bottom end of each AFLW list as strong as it could be this season? Probably not.
“Will there be enough opportunities for the really talented girls and the girls coming across from other sports to get onto an AFLW list just with retirements and delistings and injuries? Yes, I think there is. But you can only hold back the tidal wave for so long.
“So I think if they don’t expand in 2018, then certainly it would be a rather large expansion in 2019, whether that’s two teams or four teams or six teams across the country, who knows?”
http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/wom...n/news-story/b724deb5bb7e82602c1ea22cdb44079d
St Kilda and Geelong have been particularly vocal in pushing to be a part of the competition next year, having missed out on licences for the inaugural season.
But Darren Flanigan, who manages AFL Victoria’s women’s football and academy programs, says while he would like to see expansion happen as quickly as possible, realistically, holding off for one more year would improve the overall talent pool both this year and going forward.
“I can understand where (the AFL would be) coming from where they just want to consolidate,” Flanigan told foxfooty.com.au.
“Was the bottom end of each AFLW list as strong as it could be this season? Probably not.
“Will there be enough opportunities for the really talented girls and the girls coming across from other sports to get onto an AFLW list just with retirements and delistings and injuries? Yes, I think there is. But you can only hold back the tidal wave for so long.
“So I think if they don’t expand in 2018, then certainly it would be a rather large expansion in 2019, whether that’s two teams or four teams or six teams across the country, who knows?”
http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/wom...n/news-story/b724deb5bb7e82602c1ea22cdb44079d
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- #140
CHBench
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Any indication as to how, or if current players would be re-distributed, particularly the marquees?
Can't see a best of the rest team collected by whoever comes in being all that competitive, especially when the wins seemed to be heavily reliant on the performance of the marquees.
Can't see a best of the rest team collected by whoever comes in being all that competitive, especially when the wins seemed to be heavily reliant on the performance of the marquees.
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they havent even decided if there will be expansion yet. Its unlikely theyve decided on everything else before that.
It is far too soon to push for expansion. The talent pool simply isn't sufficient to expand and keep the competition at a similar standard.
The league should wait until the competition begins to generate more income, which then in turn pushes the league from an amateur competition to a professional one. Once female players can make a living playing the game then you begin to attract new talent who can concentrate on being sportswomen rather than working part-time or full-time elsewhere.
My fear in expanding too soon is that you undermine the quality of the competition and that turns people away. Already there was a massive difference in quality between the best players and the rest of the competition - certainly to a greater extent than in present in the men's game - and that would only be amplified by expanding too soon. I can understand why other clubs and fans want expansion - I'd certainly be more invested in an Essendon side - but the future health of the competition requires quality over quantity.
The league should wait until the competition begins to generate more income, which then in turn pushes the league from an amateur competition to a professional one. Once female players can make a living playing the game then you begin to attract new talent who can concentrate on being sportswomen rather than working part-time or full-time elsewhere.
My fear in expanding too soon is that you undermine the quality of the competition and that turns people away. Already there was a massive difference in quality between the best players and the rest of the competition - certainly to a greater extent than in present in the men's game - and that would only be amplified by expanding too soon. I can understand why other clubs and fans want expansion - I'd certainly be more invested in an Essendon side - but the future health of the competition requires quality over quantity.
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press conference just now
- Goyder saying that no decision has been made yet as to expansion of the league, and that the Commision has requested more information on options from the league before making a call on it. Including conferences, and whether next year has 8 or 10 teams.
- Mclachlan citing talent pool as a major issue on one side, momentum and geographic coverage on the other.
- Cost is not a factor.
- the league aspires to eventually have an 18 club competition, with all clubs having both mens and womens teams. Whether that takes 10 or 20 years.
- Goyder saying that AFL Victoria has presented phenomenal increases in womens teams and players.
- Mclachlan saying AFL Victoria will 250 womens/girls teams this year
- Mclachlan saying theyd like an expanded finals series
- Mclachlan said he had no answer about running the womens season alongside the mens - its not something the league is looking for at this time.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
Expansion really shouldn't happen until 2019 - two arguments - talent pool and the messy business of working out how to transfer players across to the new clubs.
1st point - talent pool argument is valid.
I think everyone would agree that we want the quality to expand year-on-year, in that, we want the quality of the worst player on any given team's list to be better year-on year.
The good thing is, as shown by the successes of the u-20 players, Marinoff, Frederik-Traub etc. that young players can make an instant impact.
So it won't surprise me that even with list sizes expanding to 30, that every club looks to get 5-7 or so newly eligible u/18 players - that can average out to maybe 45-50 players from the U/18 competition making the squad, and there'd be 50 players, the players "ranked" 22-27 from each club this year, that might feasibly never get on an AFLW list again as year-on-year the young talent coming through pushes it up. The fact that you're effectively replacing the league's worst 50 players with 50 U/18 players, of which maybe 20-30 would be good enough to be in their team's best 20 players, pushes down players who were the 22nd best player this year to the 25th or whatever best player next year.
And this is me being optimistic, because the AFL Victoria Talent Manager said he only expects a dozen or so U/18 Victorians drafted (which I think is underestimating it a little bit because every single Victorian girl has a leg-up from those older having played TAC Cup)
Two new teams of 30 players = 60 players, plus 8 teams having 3 more players = 84 new players total. Even if we stretch out the extent that the U/18 players will be drafted out to 60, there's still going to be 24 players across the entire league on a list that wouldn't have been last year, "adult" suburban players who will actually drag the quality of the league down as a whole.
If we assume that 2019 will also have another "batch" of 50 U/18 players, the input of 100 quality players born 1999/2000 more than covers the 84+ (if squad sizes go bigger than 30 with 9, not 7 games for 2019) expansion in squad size.
2nd point - it's easier to convince the Melbourne teams to let go of players that they drafted in 2016 for the 2019, not 2018 season, because of the TV deal expiring in 2018. We know that with a new TV deal probably bringing in some dosh the whole payment structure, retained with small increases for 2018, will be completely overhauled with new TV money in 2019 (and perhaps allow for flexible contracts, not rigid ones), inherently making the processes of making players established, drafted and invested by the 4 existing clubs easier to move across in 2019 than it would be for 2018. Imagine asking Melbourne to give up one of their gun teenage players (Berry, Mithen, Smith) etc. to Geelong/St Kilda for this coming season, they could easily argue "hang on, we drafted them earlier than we would have because we anticipated because we'd think we'd have them for years, we would have drafted older in 2016 if we'd known we'd have to give them up after 1 year and made us more likely to win the flag in 2017, and I understand we'll have compensation draft picks but it's not really the same, is it?". Allowing for a salary cap and flexible contracts might be a bit easier for 2019 ("St Kilda can afford to pay them more because we have a salary cap...") etc. etc.
1st point - talent pool argument is valid.
I think everyone would agree that we want the quality to expand year-on-year, in that, we want the quality of the worst player on any given team's list to be better year-on year.
The good thing is, as shown by the successes of the u-20 players, Marinoff, Frederik-Traub etc. that young players can make an instant impact.
So it won't surprise me that even with list sizes expanding to 30, that every club looks to get 5-7 or so newly eligible u/18 players - that can average out to maybe 45-50 players from the U/18 competition making the squad, and there'd be 50 players, the players "ranked" 22-27 from each club this year, that might feasibly never get on an AFLW list again as year-on-year the young talent coming through pushes it up. The fact that you're effectively replacing the league's worst 50 players with 50 U/18 players, of which maybe 20-30 would be good enough to be in their team's best 20 players, pushes down players who were the 22nd best player this year to the 25th or whatever best player next year.
And this is me being optimistic, because the AFL Victoria Talent Manager said he only expects a dozen or so U/18 Victorians drafted (which I think is underestimating it a little bit because every single Victorian girl has a leg-up from those older having played TAC Cup)
Two new teams of 30 players = 60 players, plus 8 teams having 3 more players = 84 new players total. Even if we stretch out the extent that the U/18 players will be drafted out to 60, there's still going to be 24 players across the entire league on a list that wouldn't have been last year, "adult" suburban players who will actually drag the quality of the league down as a whole.
If we assume that 2019 will also have another "batch" of 50 U/18 players, the input of 100 quality players born 1999/2000 more than covers the 84+ (if squad sizes go bigger than 30 with 9, not 7 games for 2019) expansion in squad size.
2nd point - it's easier to convince the Melbourne teams to let go of players that they drafted in 2016 for the 2019, not 2018 season, because of the TV deal expiring in 2018. We know that with a new TV deal probably bringing in some dosh the whole payment structure, retained with small increases for 2018, will be completely overhauled with new TV money in 2019 (and perhaps allow for flexible contracts, not rigid ones), inherently making the processes of making players established, drafted and invested by the 4 existing clubs easier to move across in 2019 than it would be for 2018. Imagine asking Melbourne to give up one of their gun teenage players (Berry, Mithen, Smith) etc. to Geelong/St Kilda for this coming season, they could easily argue "hang on, we drafted them earlier than we would have because we anticipated because we'd think we'd have them for years, we would have drafted older in 2016 if we'd known we'd have to give them up after 1 year and made us more likely to win the flag in 2017, and I understand we'll have compensation draft picks but it's not really the same, is it?". Allowing for a salary cap and flexible contracts might be a bit easier for 2019 ("St Kilda can afford to pay them more because we have a salary cap...") etc. etc.
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I have been mulling over the ‘Commission’ decision to seek further advice against Gil and the AFLPA recommendation. By the league’s decision to keep expansion on the table for 2018. Congratulations to the power of lobbying by some clubs namely Geelong, Saint Kilda and Norths.
The goal of 18 teams in 10-20 years is extraordinary is that this will require a huge infrastructure if this means AFLW is a summer sport. This is probably a motherhood statement without a plan.
Year 1 and rules towards Year 2 have been by the seat of the pants or MSU (Make s**t Up) on the run.
For this first phase of expansion 2018 or 2019.
I have concerns with the relationship between leagues especially in Victoria. Especially St Kida which expressed an interest in a takeover of St Kilda Sharks. Geelong has taken over North Geelong and will have skin in the game for both AFLW and VFLW. Whilst North Melbourne have an alignment with Melbourne University FC. What will this do to the rest of VFLW. What will become the other VFLW teams will they become Melbourne AFLW feeder teams and be patched over.
Then we have the foxes trying to run the henhouse St Kilda and Geelong about to write the list creation rules “Finnis added that by sooner he meant next season, and that he planned to meet Geelong to look at list-creation rules with concessions for the new clubs, in the spirit of allowing the two teams the benefits as "expansion" clubs.”
And the Saints have moved to further lobby head office by staging a women's exhibition game at Etihad Stadium next month as a curtain-raiser to the club's round-five clash with Geelong. (Today) On the eve of unveiling plans for their new home at Moorabbin, where St Kilda will house the St Kilda City Sharks, Finnis said the exhibition game would feature a Saints women's side against a combined Australian Defence forces team.
Cook recently told Fairfax Media: "One of the issues in all of this is that the sides not in the AFLW are open to having talent poached by the national sides. The longer we are asked to wait, the bigger the chance of our players being picked up by other clubs increases. We'd hope that they [the AFL] stay true to their word."
The Saints have created partnerships with Seaford and the St Kilda City women's teams, and for the past three months have hosted the AFL Victoria Southern Women's Academy at the Linen House Centre.
Both clubs are disappointed that they could be denied access to the talent they are developing, and that further delays to expansion will only weaken their sides in the future as the foundation teams grow stronger.
There has been debate over whether there is enough talent yet. Here is my contribution in some data.
The TAC Cup Girls will look to provide approximately 130 girls to the draft born in 1999 or earlier a break up of the TAC Cup teams
Bendigo Pioneers - 8 players;
Calder Cannons - 14 players including 1 AFL Academy player;
Dandenong Southern Stingrays – 12 players including 2 AFL Academy players;
Eastern Ranges – 10 players;
Gippsland Power - 8 players including 1 AFL Academy player;
Geelong Falcons - 12 players;
GWV Rebels – 14 players;
Murray Bushrangers – 8 players;
Northern Knights – 11 players;
Oakleigh Chargers – 10 players;
Sandringham Dragons – 13 players including 2 AFL Academy players; and
Western Jets – 8 players.
The goal of 18 teams in 10-20 years is extraordinary is that this will require a huge infrastructure if this means AFLW is a summer sport. This is probably a motherhood statement without a plan.
Year 1 and rules towards Year 2 have been by the seat of the pants or MSU (Make s**t Up) on the run.
For this first phase of expansion 2018 or 2019.
I have concerns with the relationship between leagues especially in Victoria. Especially St Kida which expressed an interest in a takeover of St Kilda Sharks. Geelong has taken over North Geelong and will have skin in the game for both AFLW and VFLW. Whilst North Melbourne have an alignment with Melbourne University FC. What will this do to the rest of VFLW. What will become the other VFLW teams will they become Melbourne AFLW feeder teams and be patched over.
Then we have the foxes trying to run the henhouse St Kilda and Geelong about to write the list creation rules “Finnis added that by sooner he meant next season, and that he planned to meet Geelong to look at list-creation rules with concessions for the new clubs, in the spirit of allowing the two teams the benefits as "expansion" clubs.”
And the Saints have moved to further lobby head office by staging a women's exhibition game at Etihad Stadium next month as a curtain-raiser to the club's round-five clash with Geelong. (Today) On the eve of unveiling plans for their new home at Moorabbin, where St Kilda will house the St Kilda City Sharks, Finnis said the exhibition game would feature a Saints women's side against a combined Australian Defence forces team.
Cook recently told Fairfax Media: "One of the issues in all of this is that the sides not in the AFLW are open to having talent poached by the national sides. The longer we are asked to wait, the bigger the chance of our players being picked up by other clubs increases. We'd hope that they [the AFL] stay true to their word."
The Saints have created partnerships with Seaford and the St Kilda City women's teams, and for the past three months have hosted the AFL Victoria Southern Women's Academy at the Linen House Centre.
Both clubs are disappointed that they could be denied access to the talent they are developing, and that further delays to expansion will only weaken their sides in the future as the foundation teams grow stronger.
There has been debate over whether there is enough talent yet. Here is my contribution in some data.
The TAC Cup Girls will look to provide approximately 130 girls to the draft born in 1999 or earlier a break up of the TAC Cup teams
Bendigo Pioneers - 8 players;
Calder Cannons - 14 players including 1 AFL Academy player;
Dandenong Southern Stingrays – 12 players including 2 AFL Academy players;
Eastern Ranges – 10 players;
Gippsland Power - 8 players including 1 AFL Academy player;
Geelong Falcons - 12 players;
GWV Rebels – 14 players;
Murray Bushrangers – 8 players;
Northern Knights – 11 players;
Oakleigh Chargers – 10 players;
Sandringham Dragons – 13 players including 2 AFL Academy players; and
Western Jets – 8 players.
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- #147
I simply adore how the Cats and Saints live in these bubbles of their own. As far as Im aware no guarantees have ever been made to clubs about their academy talent being "theirs" simply due to the nature of the draft in the first place.
Geelong VFL W squad has been released and a quick look reveals that I am unsure whether they should be considered for 2018 or 2019.
It was stated prior to Adelaide starting that there was a dearth of talent Geelong is batting this perception. Should we wait and se how they go in the VFLW in 2017 before considering a 2019 start.
If Geelong is to be included in 2018 then all the chips need to be placed in the centre right now as it is almost time to re-sign players.
There is a heavy reliance in the squad of 40 on North Geelong Magpies players in 17. There are 7 AFLW players in the squad (5 drafted and 2 replacement players called up). 3 players from the AFL Victoria Academy but two were called up for AFLW games.
Additionally, 2 players are pre draft from the TAC Girls Cup. There is also 2-3 players that were unluckily overlooked in the Draft for AFLW 1.
Other sports are well catered including 5 Netballers including a Vixen/Swifts former player, and a basketballer, gymnast and Ultimate Frisbee. Hope the Frisbee girl is as good as Cat Phillips. Throw in a Paralympics Medalist.
It was stated prior to Adelaide starting that there was a dearth of talent Geelong is batting this perception. Should we wait and se how they go in the VFLW in 2017 before considering a 2019 start.
If Geelong is to be included in 2018 then all the chips need to be placed in the centre right now as it is almost time to re-sign players.
There is a heavy reliance in the squad of 40 on North Geelong Magpies players in 17. There are 7 AFLW players in the squad (5 drafted and 2 replacement players called up). 3 players from the AFL Victoria Academy but two were called up for AFLW games.
Additionally, 2 players are pre draft from the TAC Girls Cup. There is also 2-3 players that were unluckily overlooked in the Draft for AFLW 1.
Other sports are well catered including 5 Netballers including a Vixen/Swifts former player, and a basketballer, gymnast and Ultimate Frisbee. Hope the Frisbee girl is as good as Cat Phillips. Throw in a Paralympics Medalist.
telsor
Hall of Famer
Agree with talent pool, although that's really a question of standard.
As for transferring players...That's going to be a problem whenever they expand, indeed it'd probably be bigger as time goes on (clubs losing star players that have been with them for 3-4 years rather than 'just' 2).
The other problem is that while player wages are low, the geographical location of the talent pool matters a lot more. If there are 3 'teams' worth of players in QLD, but only two AFL/AFLW clubs, then they'd have a significant advantage in depth, because clubs elsewhere just wont be able to offer enough money to be worth those players relocating. (This is also an issue for players from regional areas distant from current clubs).
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
Couple of points - the fact that a new TV deal will be negotiated for 2019, and the AFLPA agreement for player payments is tied to that means that there's no financial structures. A new pay deal will be negotiated for 2019, meaning that there might be a different payment structure which makes it easier for players to be transferred. For example, clubs have a three-tiered payment structure for marquees, then the best few players after that like priority picks/early draft picks, then a third tier of minimum payments. In 2019, I think it'll be more likely that there'll be a salary cap, and a negotiated maximum and minimum amount, and as such, clubs can negotiate any amount in between the minimum and the maximum like the men's AFL. If that change occurs, it can only be done on the back of a new TV in 2019, and if that change occurs, it makes expansion easier than it would be for 2018 where they're keeping the same three-tier payment structure. It's the existence of that salary cap that would make it easier to transfer players, as opposed to the 3 tier transfer payment. We can make the safe assumption that no Melbourne based player would leave their current club unless they were offered a higher tiered payment structure (or come from that region so like Geelong players for Geelong), so, basically, their two marquee payment has to come from the pool of tier 2 players at the 4 Melbourne club, and their tier 2 players will only come from the tier 3 players from other clubs. If a proper salary cap/clubs can pay their players any amount they want above a minimum to fit under a salary cap, then that forces a "proper" equalisation which means that inevitably players will be squeezed out for the 4 existing Melbourne clubs and can go to the 2 new ones given the 2 new clubs have 100% of their cap room to play with. All of that is on the back of a new financial structure which will only occur in 2019 tied into a new TV deal.
I agree with the principle of the geographical argument but I think it's not as big of a deal, for example, enough players were willing to move interstate like GWS getting about 12 interstate players against their 15 or so NSW/ACT players in that even though they can't force any given player to move interstate enough numbers in the entire talent pool that a few would be willing to move across (like a 2 QLD teams maybe having 5 Vic/WA players each). Some bring their friends/teammates, for example, Ashmore going to Brisbane as a priority pick and bringing her Melbourne Uni teammate Hildenbrand.
