Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

[Kynge of Begrem]

I'm confident that I've done more in my lifetime to empower women and girls than the majority of people in this thread.

What have you done?

 

[scon]

I'm confident that I've done more in my lifetime to empower women and girls than the majority of people in this thread. I'm on the same page on the majority of important gender issues as the average feminist. Feminists tell me that I AM a feminist because of my positions on various gender issues. But I reject being called a feminist, as do many women that I know.

YGTBFK

 

[kfc1]

Quality post.

Wish i could say the same about any of yours

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Wish i could say the same about any of yours

 

[skilts]

I don't think the guys that do it realistically expect that it will work. I think they do it for the benefit of other men, to show how heterosexual they are. It's definitely something that men should be calling out other men for doing. I don't see it happen a lot, but when I do I'll at least look at the dude like he's a moron if I don't actually tell him so.

This is rather pathetic. The genus is doomed.

 

[Richard Pryor]

Ulterior motives were the reason for starting the thread.

Now, I don't know anything about fleabitten, so he/she may very well be a tesseractesque nutjob, I just don't really see a problem with the threads point aside from the clickbait title taken at face value (ignoring any context outside of the thread).

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Now, I don't know anything about fleabitten, so he/she may very well be a tesseractesque nutjob, I just don't really see a problem with the threads point aside from the clickbait title taken at face value (ignoring any context outside of the thread).

I think his continual need to tell us how supportive of women he is and how everyone thinks he's a feminist, but he's not, coupled with the fact that most of his posts in recent days have been anti-feminist rants, indicate that he is not seeking a genuine discussion on the topic.

It smacks of the 'some of my best friends are black' bullshit.

 

[fleabitten]

The only reason I keep stressing that I'm not anti-women and that I'm active in what might be thought of as feminist issues is because you guys clearly want to write me off as a woman-hater just for holding these views on modern feminism. I'd rather just discuss the topic, so I'm trying to end that line of attack. It's obviously not working.

 

[fleabitten]

This is rather pathetic. The genus is doomed.

My reaction or the reason I think they're doing it? If you mean my reaction, then sorry but I'm not always quick-witted enough to react to a catcaller if I only have a matter of seconds to do so. Looking at them like they're a dickhead has to do sometimes.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

can you enlighten us on what you have done that makes you confident that you have done more in your lifetime to empower women and girls than the majority of people in this thread.

 

[fleabitten]

can you enlighten us on what you have done that makes you confident that you have done more in your lifetime to empower women and girls than the majority of people in this thread.

I've worked and volunteered for a number of organizations over the last 20 years. Most of my working life has been in fields where I've been either educating young people who are at risk (refugees mostly) or caring for them (both the very young and the elderly and disabled). I've also raised two strong young women by myself. I'm not claiming to be a hero of womankind, but it's more of a contribution than the average person and likely more than most in the thread. What have you done?

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

I've worked and volunteered for a number of organizations over the last 20 years. Most of my working life has been in fields where I've been either educating young people who are at risk (refugees mostly) or caring for them (both the very young and the elderly and disabled). I've also raised two strong young women by myself. I'm not claiming to be a hero of womankind, but it's more of a contribution than the average person and likely more than most in the thread. What have you done?

*I* have not made any claims that I need to back up.

 

[fleabitten]

*I* have not made any claims that I need to back up.

But you doubted mine. Would think that you've done at least more than zero if you were going to doubt that I'd done anything. Whatever, I don't care anyway. There have been some interesting posts in the thread, so thanks to those who made thoughtful contributions. And there were a lot more trolling and derailing posts from the feminists than there were from misogynists, so well done on that, too, I guess.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

*I* have not made any claims that I need to back up.

You never do.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

fleabitten perhaps you can pm me your linkedin details and we can compare our respective work histories?

I have also posted about times I have intervened in domestic violence incidents and have had my blood spilt for doing so.

 

[fleabitten]

fleabitten perhaps you can pm me your linkedin details and we can compare our respective work histories?

I have also posted about times I have intervened in domestic violence incidents and have had my blood spilt for doing so.

I'm not on linked in. I've also had my blood spilt in a DV intervention, but it was a gay couple so not relevant to this topic. I'm glad you back up your online activism with real world actions. I'm not really interested in turning it into a contest with you, I was just trying to make the point that I'm not some douchebag misogynist. I understand that critics of feminism are often woman haters, but it's not always the case. Feminists should be able to address criticisms on their merits, but seem to always employ the same tactics to avoid doing so.

 

[fleabitten]

BTW, the "clickbait" title wasn't intentional. At first I named the thread after the title of the article I linked, but then in my OP I also discussed viral videos, so I edited the thread title from "5 Feminist Myths That Will Not Die" to simply "Feminist Myths". Not sure what title I could give it that would be accurate and not so inflammatory.

 

[cartwright]

Pay gap
Using Australian data, ABS - male wages bold.

Occupation
The ABS average weekly earnings dataset does not include data on average weekly earnings by occupation.
The most recent data providing this information is the ABS Employee Earnings, Benefits and Trade Union
Membership survey, released in May 2013. Using this dataset, the overall gender pay gap for women and
men working full-time was calculated to be 20.4%.
 This high overall gender pay gap was mainly driven by high gender pay gaps in two occupations:
technicians and trade workers (29.7%) and community and personal service workers (28.0%).
 The occupations with the lowest gender pay gap were clerical and administrative workers (19.7%) and
machinery operators and drivers (19.1%; Table 4).
Table 4: Average weekly earnings in main job (full-time), and gender pay gap, by occupation of main job
Average weekly full-time earnings in main
job
Men Women Gender pay gap
(%)21
Technicians and trades workers $1,304 $917 29.7%
Community and personal service workers $1,267 $912 28.0%
Professionals $1,843 $1,410 23.5%
Labourers $1,097 $843 23.2%
Managers $1,870 $1,463 21.8%
Sales workers $1,208 $949 21.4%
Clerical and administrative workers $1,348 $1,082 19.7%
Machinery operators and drivers $1,338 $1,082 19.1%
All occupations $1,487 $1,184 20.4%
Source: ABS (2013), Employee Earnings, Benefits and Trade Union Membership, Australia, August 2012, cat. No. 6310.0,

https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/2014-03-04-Gender_Pay_Gap_factsheet_website.pdf


This is based of ABS Employee Earnings, benefits and Trade Union Membership survey.

Thoughts?

 

[Richard Pryor]

Pay gap
Using Australian data, ABS - male wages bold.

Occupation
The ABS average weekly earnings dataset does not include data on average weekly earnings by occupation.
The most recent data providing this information is the ABS Employee Earnings, Benefits and Trade Union
Membership survey, released in May 2013. Using this dataset, the overall gender pay gap for women and
men working full-time was calculated to be 20.4%.
 This high overall gender pay gap was mainly driven by high gender pay gaps in two occupations:
technicians and trade workers (29.7%) and community and personal service workers (28.0%).
 The occupations with the lowest gender pay gap were clerical and administrative workers (19.7%) and
machinery operators and drivers (19.1%; Table 4).
Table 4: Average weekly earnings in main job (full-time), and gender pay gap, by occupation of main job
Average weekly full-time earnings in main
job
Men Women Gender pay gap
(%)21
Technicians and trades workers $1,304 $917 29.7%
Community and personal service workers $1,267 $912 28.0%
Professionals $1,843 $1,410 23.5%
Labourers $1,097 $843 23.2%
Managers $1,870 $1,463 21.8%
Sales workers $1,208 $949 21.4%
Clerical and administrative workers $1,348 $1,082 19.7%
Machinery operators and drivers $1,338 $1,082 19.1%
All occupations $1,487 $1,184 20.4%
Source: ABS (2013), Employee Earnings, Benefits and Trade Union Membership, Australia, August 2012, cat. No. 6310.0,

https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/2014-03-04-Gender_Pay_Gap_factsheet_website.pdf


This is based of ABS Employee Earnings, benefits and Trade Union Membership survey.

Thoughts?

Aren't these averages skewed by the amount of men in senior positions due to discriminatory hiring practices in the past? I'm not sure how accurate that explanation is, but I do hear it a lot, can't really see any addressing of that in that article (though I may have missed it). It's beneficial to remove as many variables as possible in any study.

It talks a lot about the 'average woman's' and 'average man's' pay, and seems to be using the word average as though it means median.

 

[mottrain]

Pay gap
Using Australian data, ABS - male wages bold.

Occupation
The ABS average weekly earnings dataset does not include data on average weekly earnings by occupation.
The most recent data providing this information is the ABS Employee Earnings, Benefits and Trade Union
Membership survey, released in May 2013. Using this dataset, the overall gender pay gap for women and
men working full-time was calculated to be 20.4%.
 This high overall gender pay gap was mainly driven by high gender pay gaps in two occupations:
technicians and trade workers (29.7%) and community and personal service workers (28.0%).
 The occupations with the lowest gender pay gap were clerical and administrative workers (19.7%) and
machinery operators and drivers (19.1%; Table 4).
Table 4: Average weekly earnings in main job (full-time), and gender pay gap, by occupation of main job
Average weekly full-time earnings in main
job
Men Women Gender pay gap
(%)21
Technicians and trades workers $1,304 $917 29.7%
Community and personal service workers $1,267 $912 28.0%
Professionals $1,843 $1,410 23.5%
Labourers $1,097 $843 23.2%
Managers $1,870 $1,463 21.8%
Sales workers $1,208 $949 21.4%
Clerical and administrative workers $1,348 $1,082 19.7%
Machinery operators and drivers $1,338 $1,082 19.1%
All occupations $1,487 $1,184 20.4%
Source: ABS (2013), Employee Earnings, Benefits and Trade Union Membership, Australia, August 2012, cat. No. 6310.0,

https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/2014-03-04-Gender_Pay_Gap_factsheet_website.pdf


This is based of ABS Employee Earnings, benefits and Trade Union Membership survey.

Thoughts?

Yet you fail to account for reasons for these discrepancies.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Yet you fail to account for reasons for these discrepancies.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Aren't these averages skewed by the amount of men in senior positions due to discriminatory hiring practices in the past? I'm not sure how accurate that explanation is, but I do hear it a lot, can't really see any addressing of that in that article (though I may have missed it). It's beneficial to remove as many variables as possible in any study.

It talks a lot about the 'average woman's' and 'average man's' pay, and seems to be using the word average as though it means median.

For some professions, sure, but labourers and retail sales workers?

 

[cartwright]

Aren't these averages skewed by the amount of men in senior positions due to discriminatory hiring practices in the past? I'm not sure how accurate that explanation is, but I do hear it a lot, can't really see any addressing of that in that article (though I may have missed it). It's beneficial to remove as many variables as possible in any study.

It talks a lot about the 'average woman's' and 'average man's' pay, and seems to be using the word average as though it means median.

Noticed that too.

Its difficult to get accurate information on this, and we know that stats can be skewed any way we like.

Just thought it might be interesting to be presented with some local data.

As Kynge said, that can be rationalised for some professions but you'd think that retail etc would be more equal?

 

[Richard Pryor]

For some professions, sure, but labourers?

But what's the definition of 'laborer'? Does it include foremen? Does 'retail worker' include managers?

I'm not trying to argue that the paygap is a complete myth, but variables like, what each profession is strictly defined as, what positions were included, when people were hired, etc. seem like the kind of thing that should really be on that page. The whole point of doing research like that is that people don't have to argue context and technical details. All the obvious questions should already be answered, leaving things too open to interpretation lets confirmation bias and scepticism devalue the whole study.

I'm almost certain there are better studies/writeups than that one in particular though.

 

[cartwright]

But what's the definition of 'laborer'? Does it include foremen? Does 'retail worker' include managers?

I'm not trying to argue that the paygap is a complete myth, but variables like, what each profession is strictly defined as, what positions were included, when people were hired, etc. seem like the kind of thing that should really be on that page. The whole point of doing research like that is that people don't have to argue context and technical details. All the obvious questions should already be answered, leaving things too open to interpretation lets confirmation bias and scepticism devalue the whole study.

I'm almost certain there are better studies/writeups than that one in particular though.

it was a quick search. Would be interested in seeing it, if any are available