Footy Dept. AFLW Program led by Aysha Ward

[CrowdedHouse]

Full piece from the club website:

Bombers begin key AFLW appointments

The pieces are falling into place as the Bombers prepare to join the national women's competition.

www.essendonfc.com.au

TL;DR version:

Charlotte Miller promoted from VFLW Operations Manager to AFLW & VFLW Operations Manager

Brendan Major promoted from VFLW Head Coach to VFLW Head Coach and 'Coach and Player Development Manager'

Harmit Singh promoted to AFLW Recruitment Manager

Georgia Harvey promoted to Player Contract Manager

In short, we are looking outside for an AFLW Head Coach.

 

[eth-dog]

Who would you be looking for in that role CrowdedHouse? Any strong opinions?

 

[CrowdedHouse]

Who would you be looking for in that role CrowdedHouse? Any strong opinions?

I'm worried we'll "do a St Kilda" and hire an ex-Essendon AFL player as coach - I hope not, as we'd be better suited to someone with women's footy experience.

The most logical one to chase is Collingwood assistant coach Scott Gowans. Years of experience in girls/womens footy, and had North Melbourne going beautifully after two seasons, before being knifed due to covid cost cuts at the broke-ass Kangaroos.

There's also Patrick Hill at St Kilda. Was an assistant coach, now moved into the Development Role. Lead Hawthorn to the 2018 VFLW flag, plus coached Box Hill Hawks VFL Reserves and Frankston in the VFL.

Then we have Jane Lange at Melbourne. Been an assistant there for five years, and player-coached Darebin to back-to-back flags in the VFLW (when they were stacked with AFLW era talent).

You could look at Chloe McMillan. Was Collingwood AFLW Development Manager, then took over from VFLW Premiership Coach Penny Cula-Reid, taking the side to the 2021 minor premiership undefeated and a Grand Final berth, before the Grand Final was covid cancelled.

Speaking of Penny. 2018 VFLW Minor Premiership, then 2019 VFLW Premiership with the Pies. Pies wouldn't make her full-time, so headed for Williamstown.
Been unlucky there. 2020 season and wipe out, then just as the 2021 VFLW pre-season got underway, her list manager got appointed as coach of Port Melbourne, took with him the best dozen players or so, leaving Willi short for numbers and experience and finishing 2nd last. Needs more time to judge.

As outsiders, you've got Nicole Graves. Ex-Carlton AFLW General Manager. They made the Grand Final in the year she was there and haven't been the same since she left. Now coaching Coolangatta-Tweed in Queensland. Has multiple WAWFL flags as a coach and VWFL flags as a player. She from the pre-AFLW era, which the current AFL industry look their nose down at.

Similar, you have Krissie Steen at North Adelaide, who within three years coached Adelaide University to the SAWFL flag, then South Adelaide (in their debut year) to the SANFLW flag, then was assistant at GWS for a year, before becoming head coach at North Adelaide and taking the SANFLW flag undefeated. Like Gravesy, pre-AFLW era, so probably won't get a look in.

An outsider is Melissa Hickey. Retired from the AFLW in 2020 after two years at Melbourne, then two years as captain at Geelong (was a bit of a dirty player from others I spoke to, but was always nice to me in conversation). On the coaching fast-track. Was coaching at Geelong Falcons, then took over as Head Coach of Vic Country in the Girls U19 Champs. Appointed this coming season as Bulldogs assistant coach.

 

[Godzke]

Georgia Harvey promoted to Player Contract Manager

Across both AFL and AFLW teams presumably

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Was hoping this thread was made.

Harmit Singh sounds familiar.

Did he play for Vermont one time?

 

[eth-dog]

Was hoping this thread was made.

Harmit Singh sounds familiar.

Did he play for Vermont one time?

Harmit Singh coached Vermont a few years ago.

Also a St Mary's Salesian lad from yesteryear...

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Harmit Singh coached Vermont a few years ago.

Also a St Mary's Salesian lad from yesteryear...

That's what it was.

 

[eth-dog]

That's what it was.

Yeah but the second part was more important. Right yodellinhank?

 

[Lore]

Harmit Singh is our community engagement guy and academy manager as well.

 

[yodellinhank]

Yeah but the second part was more important. Right yodellinhank?

Absolutely. Going by that he has to be a good bloke.

Moves around quite a bit. Coached Morwell to back-to-back flags in 13-14 and to say the arse dropped out of the place on his departure would seem to be an understatement.

Article from a former player of his: https://gippslandia.com.au/articles/a-coach-of-a-coach-of-a-coach/

 

[pazza]

I'm worried we'll "do a St Kilda" and hire an ex-Essendon AFL player as coach - I hope not, as we'd be better suited to someone with women's footy experience.

The most logical one to chase is Collingwood assistant coach Scott Gowans. Years of experience in girls/womens footy, and had North Melbourne going beautifully after two seasons, before being knifed due to covid cost cuts at the broke-ass Kangaroos.

There's also Patrick Hill at St Kilda. Was an assistant coach, now moved into the Development Role. Lead Hawthorn to the 2018 VFLW flag, plus coached Box Hill Hawks VFL Reserves and Frankston in the VFL.

Then we have Jane Lange at Melbourne. Been an assistant there for five years, and player-coached Darebin to back-to-back flags in the VFLW (when they were stacked with AFLW era talent).

You could look at Chloe McMillan. Was Collingwood AFLW Development Manager, then took over from VFLW Premiership Coach Penny Cula-Reid, taking the side to the 2021 minor premiership undefeated and a Grand Final berth, before the Grand Final was covid cancelled.

Speaking of Penny. 2018 VFLW Minor Premiership, then 2019 VFLW Premiership with the Pies. Pies wouldn't make her full-time, so headed for Williamstown.
Been unlucky there. 2020 season and wipe out, then just as the 2021 VFLW pre-season got underway, her list manager got appointed as coach of Port Melbourne, took with him the best dozen players or so, leaving Willi short for numbers and experience and finishing 2nd last. Needs more time to judge.

As outsiders, you've got Nicole Graves. Ex-Carlton AFLW General Manager. They made the Grand Final in the year she was there and haven't been the same since she left. Now coaching Coolangatta-Tweed in Queensland. Has multiple WAWFL flags as a coach and VWFL flags as a player. She from the pre-AFLW era, which the current AFL industry look their nose down at.

Similar, you have Krissie Steen at North Adelaide, who within three years coached Adelaide University to the SAWFL flag, then South Adelaide (in their debut year) to the SANFLW flag, then was assistant at GWS for a year, before becoming head coach at North Adelaide and taking the SANFLW flag undefeated. Like Gravesy, pre-AFLW era, so probably won't get a look in.

An outsider is Melissa Hickey. Retired from the AFLW in 2020 after two years at Melbourne, then two years as captain at Geelong (was a bit of a dirty player from others I spoke to, but was always nice to me in conversation). On the coaching fast-track. Was coaching at Geelong Falcons, then took over as Head Coach of Vic Country in the Girls U19 Champs. Appointed this coming season as Bulldogs assistant coach.

Why don't we just get Peta Searle and be done with it.

 

[Lore]

 

[bomberman500]

Has Longys daughter signed for us??

I remember an article a few years back saying she was happy to play VFLW for Essendon rather than play for another AFLW club

 

[Lore]

Has Longys daughter signed for us??

I remember an article a few years back saying she was happy to play VFLW for Essendon rather than play for another AFLW club

Don’t think she’s playing VFLW at all. Hasn’t been in our team the last couple of seasons… Might be playing NT or something else though.

 

[bomberman500]

Don’t think she’s playing VFLW at all. Hasn’t been in our team the last couple of seasons… Might be playing NT or something else though.

Hopefully she comes down to play AFLW for us

 

[iDon]

Absolutely. Going by that he has to be a good bloke.

Moves around quite a bit. Coached Morwell to back-to-back flags in 13-14 and to say the arse dropped out of the place on his departure would seem to be an understatement.

Article from a former player of his: https://gippslandia.com.au/articles/a-coach-of-a-coach-of-a-coach/

He coached me at Northcote Park. Before moving onto Vermont.

Top bloke. Froffs footy.

 

[NorthernBastard]

I won't be at all surprised if Major is appointed AFLW coach, especially if the 2022 VFLW season goes well for the Dons. Did great things with that side this year.

 

[Vindicater]

Going to be great seeing our great club in the AFLW.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Why don't we just get Peta Searle and be done with it.

I'm guessing you didn't get to see St Kilda play much.

There's absolutely no evidence suggesting somebody with experience in women's footy makes for a better AFLW coach. Here are some other inaugural AFLW coaches who were highly credentialed and celebrated like Searle was, and then ran their teams into the ground like Searle did:

Tim Schmidt (GWS), one-win season
Michelle Cowan (Frem), one-win season
Damien Keeping (Carl), wooden spoon & record losing margin
Wayne Siekman (Coll), one-win season
Tom Hunter (Rich), winless season
David Lake (GC), winless season
Paul Hood (Geel), one-win season

And that's to say nothing of some of their peers with positive winning records, like Gowans and Goddard, who were let go for "financial reasons" (face-saving code for "senior players wanted them gone") and were rejected multiple times when subsequently applying for senior coaching roles at other clubs.

Most, just about all, of the guys who have come in with no experience in women's footy (like Ryan Ferguson, Alan McConnell and Matthew Clarke) have overseen dramatic improvements.

A lot of people will judge Essendon's appointments based on whether or not "VFLW Coach of the Year" etc appears in the press release, which is foolish. Any selection panel with half-a-clue is going to look past those superficialities, and the only way to credibly evaluate their decisions will be to look at on-field performance (specifically: the improvement, or lack thereof, over the team's initial matches/seasons).

 

[Lore]

selection panel with half-a-clue

From the rest of your post this doesn’t sound all that common among AFLW clubs…

 

[Teen Wolf]

From the rest of your post this doesn’t sound all that common among AFLW clubs…

Either that or it's an issue of backbone rather than brains--i.e. a desire to make the popular choice over the hard call.

But aside from a few cases which remain to be seen, it's worth noting how clubs have widely made pretty effective course corrections with their coaching appointments after enduring early turmoil.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

I'm guessing you didn't get to see St Kilda play much.

There's absolutely no evidence suggesting somebody with experience in women's footy makes for a better AFLW coach. Here are some other inaugural AFLW coaches who were highly credentialed and celebrated like Searle was, and then ran their teams into the ground like Searle did:

Tim Schmidt (GWS), one-win season
Michelle Cowan (Frem), one-win season
Damien Keeping (Carl), wooden spoon & record losing margin
Wayne Siekman (Coll), one-win season
Tom Hunter (Rich), winless season
David Lake (GC), winless season
Paul Hood (Geel), one-win season

And that's to say nothing of some of their peers with positive winning records, like Gowans and Goddard, who were let go for "financial reasons" (face-saving code for "senior players wanted them gone") and were rejected multiple times when subsequently applying for senior coaching roles at other clubs.

Most, just about all, of the guys who have come in with no experience in women's footy (like Ryan Ferguson, Alan McConnell and Matthew Clarke) have overseen dramatic improvements.

A lot of people will judge Essendon's appointments based on whether or not "VFLW Coach of the Year" etc appears in the press release, which is foolish. Any selection panel with half-a-clue is going to look past those superficialities, and the only way to credibly evaluate their decisions will be to look at on-field performance (specifically: the improvement, or lack thereof, over the team's initial matches/seasons).

Haven't had time to pick-a-part Teen Wolf's post (cause, shock horror, I have a life away from here), but he does leave out some important details when dismissing those with women's footy experience , so let's break it down.

Tim Schmidt (GWS) - Ex-AFL Footballer and was not a popular choice amongst those in NSW/ACT women's footy circles. GWS also had a policy of not selecting older players from the local comp (players like Jennifer Lew come to mind). Plus the talent GWS initially picked up from Victoria were B/C Graders, and injuries to their two Marquees from WA (Renee Forth misses whole season).

Michelle Cowan (Freo) - I will concede some ground on Cowan. Rumour had it she was panicking in the coaches box during the famous WA v Vic game at Subiaco in 2015. Still, it needs to be pointed out that the best of the best WA talent was taken by the other states, so year one was a write-off. Year two is on her head.

Damien Keeping (Carl) - Was an assistant TAC Cup (Boys) coach and Vic Metro U18 Girls assistant coach. Limited time in women's footy, and don't rate those involved with the Vic Metro program (pre-AFLW) - you're pretty much coaching the best in the country and you're were expected to win title. A lot of mismanagement behind the scenes at the Blues at the time (How the hell do you lose your captains to other clubs?!).

Wayne Siekman (Coll) - Per above about Vic Metro (except he was coach).In the first year there was a push to have the AFLW team play the same system/style as the men's side. Anyone who actually coached at women's footy club level would have known the women's game was not ready for that yet.

Tom Hunter (Rich) - No women's footy background prior to VFLW job (then automatic AFLW appointment). Was playing the first VFLW season with a game plan around a small forwards set-up, then everything got thrown out the window the next year, because Katie Brennan wanted to play midfield (squeezing 1st year BnF Jess Kennedy out) and Sabrina Federick became the sole focus up forward. Some better recruiting (and KB staying in the forward half) going forward help new coach Ferguson.

David Lake (GCS) - First exposed to women's footy as an assistant coach at the Lions. Was a surprise (and possibly cheaper) choice over other candidates. List (at the time) lacked any "A Graders", which would be a problem for a number of expansion teams.

Paul Hood (Geel) - No women's footy background prior to VFLW job (then automatic AFLW appointment). Interesting case because he took the Cats to the VFLW Grand Final before they entered the AFLW. Got unlucky with a number of injuries to key players (the big one being Nina Morrison), plus was hamstrung by a club policy of wanting to recruit the younger talent from the local region. Older players recruited we're only going to offer limited service.

So out of the above "women's footy experience" coaches Teen Wolf puts forward, none had women's footy club level experience (pre-AFLW era).

In the comments regarding Gowans and Goddard that senior players wanted them gone; newsflash - every time a coach leaves a club you hear those stories... and it doesn't mean the players are right (and there might be a bit of offended from Norf cause Gowans as midfield coach at the Pies beat them not once, but twice last year)!

In fact, look at St Kilda right now. Searle had a weak list (victim of 2nd phase expansion being too soon), which was made worse by injuries. We're seeing that right now, as Dal Santo has had a full pre-season with them and (albeit missing Patrikios and Smith) they are playing worse than when Searle had them.

Now, do I believe Brendan Major should be given the AFLW job (if he wanted it)? I understand if the club did, rewarding him for building up the team over the years, but I'd lean to no, based on that in his time in women's footy, he has only won one final and by less than a goal.

As to the argument that there's no evidence suggesting those with women's footy (pre-AFLW/club level) experience would make a better AFLW coach, well, every team that has made the AFLW Grand Final, has had someone involved with women's footy experience involved in some way.

2017 - Adelaide v Brisbane. Goddard, former AFL Canberra league coach and Canberra rep side coach v Starcevich, Head of AFL Queensland female talent pathways (pre-AFLW era) and coach in a number of AFLW exhibition matches.

2018 - Western Bulldogs v Brisbane. Starcevich again, and yes Paul Groves is coaching the Bulldogs, but what important this happened prior to that season? Debbie Lee went from being women's footy ops manager at Melbourne (best placed vic side in 2017) to the Bulldogs (2018 Premiers).

2019 - Adelaide v Carlton. Doc Clarke has taken over a Goddard built team, that was still in the hunt for a Grand Final spot in the final round of 2018, despite injuries to Cramey and Phillips. Their opponent is coached by Daniel Harford, but guess who is behind the scenes as women's footy GM, Nicole Graves - multiple women's premierships in WA and Vic.

2020 (Covid wipe out)

2021 - Adelaide v Brisbane. Argument can be made this is really Doc Clarke's side now v Starcevich.


The evidence stands out. You need people with women's footy clubland experience on board, and ideally, one as a head coach.

 

[Teen Wolf]

2018 - Western Bulldogs v Brisbane. Starcevich again, and yes Paul Groves is coaching the Bulldogs, but what important this happened prior to that season? Debbie Lee went from being women's footy ops manager at Melbourne (best placed vic side in 2017) to the Bulldogs (2018 Premiers).

2019 - Adelaide v Carlton. Doc Clarke has taken over a Goddard built team, that was still in the hunt for a Grand Final spot in the final round of 2018, despite injuries to Cramey and Phillips. Their opponent is coached by Daniel Harford, but guess who is behind the scenes as women's footy GM, Nicole Graves - multiple women's premierships in WA and Vic.

If the coach's background in women's football is the be-all and end-all, you wouldn't be swerving off course to people in other positions.

2020 (Covid wipe out)

Fremantle 7-0. Trent Cooper not suitable for the job according to your criteria.

Tim Schmidt (GWS) - Ex-AFL Footballer and was not a popular choice amongst those in NSW/ACT women's footy circles. GWS also had a policy of not selecting older players from the local comp (players like Jennifer Lew come to mind). Plus the talent GWS initially picked up from Victoria were B/C Graders, and injuries to their two Marquees from WA (Renee Forth misses whole season).

Michelle Cowan (Freo) - I will concede some ground on Cowan. Rumour had it she was panicking in the coaches box during the famous WA v Vic game at Subiaco in 2015. Still, it needs to be pointed out that the best of the best WA talent was taken by the other states, so year one was a write-off. Year two is on her head.

Damien Keeping (Carl) - Was an assistant TAC Cup (Boys) coach and Vic Metro U18 Girls assistant coach. Limited time in women's footy, and don't rate those involved with the Vic Metro program (pre-AFLW) - you're pretty much coaching the best in the country and you're were expected to win title. A lot of mismanagement behind the scenes at the Blues at the time (How the hell do you lose your captains to other clubs?!).

Wayne Siekman (Coll) - Per above about Vic Metro (except he was coach).In the first year there was a push to have the AFLW team play the same system/style as the men's side. Anyone who actually coached at women's footy club level would have known the women's game was not ready for that yet.

Tom Hunter (Rich) - No women's footy background prior to VFLW job (then automatic AFLW appointment). Was playing the first VFLW season with a game plan around a small forwards set-up, then everything got thrown out the window the next year, because Katie Brennan wanted to play midfield (squeezing 1st year BnF Jess Kennedy out) and Sabrina Federick became the sole focus up forward. Some better recruiting (and KB staying in the forward half) going forward help new coach Ferguson.

David Lake (GCS) - First exposed to women's footy as an assistant coach at the Lions. Was a surprise (and possibly cheaper) choice over other candidates. List (at the time) lacked any "A Graders", which would be a problem for a number of expansion teams.

Paul Hood (Geel) - No women's footy background prior to VFLW job (then automatic AFLW appointment). Interesting case because he took the Cats to the VFLW Grand Final before they entered the AFLW. Got unlucky with a number of injuries to key players (the big one being Nina Morrison), plus was hamstrung by a club policy of wanting to recruit the younger talent from the local region. Older players recruited we're only going to offer limited service.

You concede I'm correct, and then waste your wonderful life writing the rest of this guff. "No women's footy background prior to becoming VFLW Coach of the Year" isn't changing anybody's mind, hate to tell ya.

In the comments regarding Gowans and Goddard that senior players wanted them gone; newsflash - every time a coach leaves a club you hear those stories... and it doesn't mean the players are right (and there might be a bit of offended from Norf cause Gowans as midfield coach at the Pies beat them not once, but twice last year)!

Emma Kearney made her feelings about Gowans publicly known before the start of last season.

In fact, look at St Kilda right now. Searle had a weak list (victim of 2nd phase expansion being too soon), which was made worse by injuries. We're seeing that right now, as Dal Santo has had a full pre-season with them and (albeit missing Patrikios and Smith) they are playing worse than when Searle had them.

My suggestion is to evaluate a team's development over an extended period of time (at least one season, rather than just one game).

St Kilda were woefully uncompetitive in most games last year, despite having Patrikios and Smith. They went backwards under Searle. And the reason they had a weak list is because players like Karen Paxman and Lauren Pearce didn't want to play for her. Another example of a coach's resume not counting for much in the eyes of top talent. Definitely something Essendon will be keeping in mind.

 

[84859300]

One thing to keep in mind with Women's football right now is that it is still in its infancy of development.

The AFL would have you believe that with Foxtel broadcasts, national teams and poaching players from other top level codes that the league is top notch. Really, when you get down to nuts and bolts, it's more peacemealed to create a gap in the market between men's seasons; whilst it finds its feet. 15 weeks thrown together over summer; sourcing the perceived best talent available for both players and coaching staff.

The AFL have been running a womens coaching development program for the best part of 5 years, where the coaches and assistants are now drawn from the level 2 and 3 qualified coaches. Compare that to a career coach from the mens game who has 15+ years under their belt, but not sanctioned under the AFLW coaching critera; makes it harder (not impossible) to bring this type into the mix.

After the AFLW season is won and done, the girls head back to their own comps - playing NT, VFL, SA, WA football that could nearly be considered better run that the top tier in the back end. The NGA, development squads, TAC etc feed more into the lower levels than the hand picked AFLW teams currently.

This make up may well change and improve when we get to an 18 team comp and when we have more staff experiencing womens football at the second tier and finding their feet. I think the AFL has a pass for womens footy as it has progressed, but in now ay is it close to its final form.

 

[Lore]

One thing to keep in mind with Women's football right now is that it is still in its infancy of development.

The AFL would have you believe that with Foxtel broadcasts, national teams and poaching players from other top level codes that the league is top notch. Really, when you get down to nuts and bolts, it's more peacemealed to create a gap in the market between men's seasons; whilst it finds its feet. 15 weeks thrown together over summer; sourcing the perceived best talent available for both players and coaching staff.

The AFL have been running a womens coaching development program for the best part of 5 years, where the coaches and assistants are now drawn from the level 2 and 3 qualified coaches. Compare that to a career coach from the mens game who has 15+ years under their belt, but not sanctioned under the AFLW coaching critera; makes it harder (not impossible) to bring this type into the mix.

After the AFLW season is won and done, the girls head back to their own comps - playing NT, VFL, SA, WA football that could nearly be considered better run that the top tier in the back end. The NGA, development squads, TAC etc feed more into the lower levels than the hand picked AFLW teams currently.

This make up may well change and improve when we get to an 18 team comp and when we have more staff experiencing womens football at the second tier and finding their feet. I think the AFL has a pass for womens footy as it has progressed, but in now ay is it close to its final form.

Probably another decade to get it somewhere near the AFL in terms of quality, what we have now seems akin to the VFL of the 1980s in terms of a semi-professional low pay scenario with a couple of freaks that thrive despite it all. Not sure if the depth will be available in the draft even in 10 years time, though that might just mean careers last a bit longer to cover the shortfall.

It is starting to come through now I think, once there are 18 teams we might start making the comparison to the 1990s. The players drafted over the last couple of years have played footy all through their junior careers rather than being poached across from other codes in their 20s, they are the second generation players. By the time they're in their 30s and retiring, the third generation will be coming through from higher quality junior pathways, joining established teams with cultures and traditions of their own, and will have never known a world without AFLW as something to aspire to.

The same basically goes for the coaching. A coach with 15 years experience in the AFL may not be super interested in a 15-week summer gig on a quarter of the pay, other than as a stepping stone to something else or perhaps a passion project. But that should come through eventually too, as with the players it's gradual and generational, but at some point it will be more or less on par with AFL coaching roles. You'll know we've got there when they're completely interchangeable.

By way of comparison, GWS and GC are only starting their second generation in under-developed markets with some percentage of home grown talent who have played footy all their lives coming through. Their coaches weren't locals either to begin with, any more than their players or their fans. But another generation and there will be kids that have never known a world without those clubs, and once they're getting drafted to the team they supported as a kid (or better yet, coaching it), that's when you can really call it established I think. After three generations you might even call it endemic.