Autopsy Frees in Port and other games

[mic59]

Couldn't find a thread to put this in and I thought it could be an idea to have an exclusive thread about some decisions and the rules that allow them. The idea for this came about when seeing the latest rush of "prior opportunity" frees when the player ducks. Two this week came to my attention. One, as most people would expect, the one paid to Rhys Stanley against Aaron Young in the second quarter against Geelong. Young had his head towards where the ball was and he was not even grabbed around the head so could not be described as leading with the head. I think some umpires just pay these when the head is less than perpendicular. The second was when I was watching North/Sydney and was paid against Andrew Swallow. Again he was not leading with the head with intent to draw a free but bending down to pick it up. Goodes, who got the free, was hanging off him till he could get into the right position and grab him around the head. It is like that HTB a few years ago where players would hang off, wait till someone had grabbed the ball and then wave their arm in the air while lying on the player so they couldn't dispose of it.
There have been other times rules have been manipulated like this. One some time ago was by Monfries when he was playing for Essendon. The rule that had just come in was the contact below the knees one. In one game Monfries deliberately ran his legs into a prone opposition player to get one of these frees.

Anyone with anything else about decisions or non-decisions(whether in Port or other games) or just a general bellyache about some particular rule?

 

[ExpectToWin]

All Swallow had to do is make some attempt (fake or real) to get rid of the ball. Both his arms remained motionless (regardless of being free) and this is what influenced the umpires decision.

It is not to dissimilar to a HTB decision against Jonas last year where he took possession of the ball (in a standing position) got immediately wrapped up in the tackle (ball pinned to his body) Jonas did not pretend to get rid of the ball with the whole fake 'look umpire I am trying to get rid of the ball'' punching the ball with fist action.

What I really want ti legitimately know is

Is Push In the Back still a rule.

If so, why was Chad Wingard not paid a free in the second quarter when he was running in on goal (in the open) and pushed in the back. Why was Broadbent not paid a free in the last quarter when pushed in the back (in the open) when kicking resulting in a Out on the full.

If a player tackles another player in possession and the tackle causes the player in possession to spill the ball to the ground, is that still regarded as Holding the Ball?

 

[tribey]

Every supporter feels their team is hard done by with the umps, but by my (obviously biased) reckoning we'd be leading the competition for number of games where the interpretation of the exact same things is at polar opposites for us and the opposition.

Harking all the way back to the days of Primus, Lade and Tredrea. Our ruckmen use their obvious strength advantages against noodle-armed opponents and they're done for pushing, yet they're mugged freely in turn.

Tredrea can't get a free for love nor money, but our defenders aren't allowed to so much as compete without giving away all manner of frees to everyone from Roughead and Riewoldt to Hurley and Pedersen.

The discrepancies in the Selwood and Young instances are infuriating, but normal. In 10 years time people will see we won the free kick count by 1 and be all "lol and Porpower fans thought they were robbed lololololol"

 

[Chewy316]

Usually I can let a lot of the mistakes the umpires make go by. My major issue I have whenever I watch any sporting match, is the consistency of the refereeing. Whenever there are grey areas in rules, it comes down to umpires having different interpretations of said rules. Different interpretations are obviously going to lead to different umpiring decisions on the field.

So in that regard, no game is really going to be the same umpiring wise, especially in AFL in which 95% of the rules are grey areas. Given the nature of the game, I don't think you'll ever be able to get consistency right across every game. Would be possible if a major revamp of the umpires occurred over a 10+ year period, but that's not going to happen. As long as there is consistency during a game, I don't see how umpires should get in the way of any contest. It then puts the onus on the players to adapt to the way the refs are calling the game. Is it ideal? No, but it's still a level playing field for both sides.

The problem right now is that we are not getting consistency in the AFL. One player ducks his head, play on. 5 minutes later, another player ducks their head, gets a free for too high. Next one in ducks their head and gets pinged for HTB. Then there are the frees given or not given to "make up" for previous decisions, which are blatantly obvious and absolutely ridiculous. They only add to the confusion of the game.

My biggest desire would be to have full time referees who are not primarily judged on their ability to run 12ks in an allotted time, but rather, judged by their ability to handle pressure and make sound decision making in adverse conditions. Is it possible? Yes. Will it happen? Probably not in the next 20 years at AFL level.

 

[Andre]

Free kick counts are meaningless for the ones missed, but even taking those aside where and when they are paid has a big effect. We generally come out around even, but that's usually off 'even uppers' when a game is dead.

Frees obviously advantage the side getting them. It's crude, but a 'Supercoach' type points system with them could be implemented.

A free received is worth a base 10 points. Add 5 if in the forward 50 and take off 5 for in defence. Frees before half time are worth +10 points. And frees received if you are down 4 or more goals after half time take off 5 points.

The above is rough, but would fairly accurately give an indication of how useful the frees actually were. Put our 2015 games through the above system and I'd be shocked beyond belief if our supposedly evenish free kick counts didn't suddenly blow out to the opposition being handed a distinct advantage in most of our games.

 

[Andre]

And I'll add one of my pet hates is the frees we get that actually disadvantage us. There's been a few this year where a player is entitled to a free, but we get it away only for the umpire to call it back. Nice, momentum killed and we supposedly are meant to be thankful for that? The missed 'advantage' frees are ones that really rub me up the wrong way.

 

[mic59]

Is Push In the Back still a rule.

If so, why was Chad Wingard not paid a free in the second quarter when he was running in on goal (in the open) and pushed in the back. Why was Broadbent not paid a free in the last quarter when pushed in the back (in the open) when kicking resulting in a Out on the full.

It seems to have been decided that a push, unless it is right in the middle of the back, is not a push in the back. Some umpires seem to think the back of the shoulders isn't part of the back. And a player isn't caught around the neck unless they're clotheslined from the front.

 

[Chrizzt]

The biggest issue with just looking at free kick count for fairness is the even uppers as has been mentioned. The main way this is manifested in the modern game is umpires paying a contested mark as a free for chopping or in the back, ie replacing incidents with free kicks that in the end have absolutely no effect on the state of play.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The 8 bloody Commissioners, the bloody Laws of the game committee and even the head honchos in the umpiring department, yes even the women and old farts involved, should be forced to umpire an U/16 or U/18 game as a minimum, have the game filmed and umpire any new rule or interpretation changes and that umpiring video be available to the general public, before any rule change is approved.

 

[scotty13]

The biggest issue with just looking at free kick count for fairness is the even uppers as has been mentioned. The main way this is manifested in the modern game is umpires paying a contested mark as a free for chopping or in the back, ie replacing incidents with free kicks that in the end have absolutely no effect on the state of play.

Yep this pissed me off big time.
Im over umpires, and they are very bloody lucky I'm not a professional sniper or they would need to be watching their backs all the time.

Im waiting, and hoping for the day a player snaps after a continuous run of terrible decisions and says enough is enough and snots the umpire one, then challenge it in the court of arbitration that the umpire was clearly cheating and something had to be done. Make the AFL accountable for its umpires!

 

[DazzaTys]

Yeah we finished the count ahead on Friday night but we were killed with some terrible decisions. How many times was Selwood tackled, spun over 360 degrees but then still allowed to dispose of the ball. We seem to be getting the cramp decisions at the crucial time. That Young decision was absolutely terrible. The club needs to say something seriously. Between that shiny head campaigner Nicholls and the poncing pidgeon chamberlain, we seem to get luck put every week.

 

[El_Scorcho]

The count obviously doesn't matter, it's not about raw numbers.

I can still only think of 3 games in the hundreds and hundreds of footy games i've seen where the umpiring decided the outcome.

2007 Heritage round vs the Bulldogs, the last quarter screwjob against Essendon, and 38-15.

 

[SgtSchulz]

Should be a stats for free's that result in set shots and frees in forward half.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

The umpiring standards in this game is garbage....thats because they are protected....they can stuff up have shockers talk down to players with the knowledge have absolutely no reprimands

They have too much power bestowed upon them by the afl and media....in fear of not having any umpires to govern the game if we are too harsh on them or single them out individually for poor performance....

Well i am led to believe they are on about 1k-3k a game.....trust me afl you will not have any trouble producing umpires...

All in all because of the power this untouchable attitude their skills will never get any better ...so much power with little to no consequence

I would love for each and every umpire to get trained up in the rules of soccer and go and officiate a game between man u and man city.... actually make it a South American soccer match for good measure ...just so they can understand the gift they have been given being an afl umpire.....if they interperated the rules in such a diverse manner they would at best recieve a swift capoeira kick to the face....

 

[ozph1870]

by far the hardest game to umpire. there will always be mistakes, doesnt mean we cant call them campaigners when it happens.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

by far the hardest game to umpire. there will always be mistakes, doesnt mean we cant call them campaigners when it happens.

While this is true ....this doesnt excuse the diverse interprations from player to player team to team qtr to qtr ...minute to minute......s*** even from forward line to backline ...the position you play....the time left on the clock vs scoreboard....

 

[mic59]

I think the worst non-decision I've ever seen was in a game between the Bulldogs and a team that slips my mind at the moment(not us). The Bulldogs were less than a goal down and the ball was in their goalsquare with 30 seconds to go. The ball came free, a Bulldog player went for it and was subjected to the most obvious grab around the neck you ever saw. The umpire actually raised his whistle and you could almost see him thinking 'I can't let a game be decided by a free I give'. All the commentators agreed that was the only reason he didn't pay the free and that he would have paid it at any other time. It was the most spineless piece of umpiring I have ever seen.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I think the worst non-decision I've ever seen was in a game between the Bulldogs and a team that slips my mind at the moment(not us). The Bulldogs were less than a goal down and the ball was in their goalsquare with 30 seconds to go. The ball came free, a Bulldog player went for it and was subjected to the most obvious grab around the neck you ever saw. The umpire actually raised his whistle and you could almost see him thinking 'I can't let a game be decided by a free I give'. All the commentators agreed that was the only reason he didn't pay the free and that he would have paid it at any other time. It was the most spineless piece of umpiring I have ever seen.

Think that was Geelong - or a similar thing happened in a Geelong game and if not Bulldogs then maybe the Blues.

 

[ozph1870]

While this is true ....this doesnt excuse the diverse interprations from player to player team to team qtr to qtr ...minute to minute......s*** even from forward line to backline ...the position you play....the time left on the clock vs scoreboard....

yeah i get as frustrated as anyone about that too, the obvious ones, the blatant wrong or missed calls like the young holding the ball last week or the hombsch v franklin in the back last year. calls like that arent just wrong angle or a 50-50 judgement call, but blatant wrong calls or misinterpretations. thats when you get frustrated and the kids around learn a few new names to call their mates.

 

[Jack Foster]

The rules of our game are too subjective. Even after several slow motion replays the 'experts' in the commentary box can't agree. On many occasions the umpires have no chance of getting it right in real time on the ground.

Perhaps the AFL needs to trial vastly different non subjective rules at lower leagues.

E.G: Your hand or forearm cannot make contact with your opponent unless you are tackling and/or bumping. This mostly applies in ruck and marking contests. You use your hips and shoulders. That's it.

It would help the umpires enormously if the AFL was stricter on players who play for frees (cheat). It's not a good look or something which should be encouraged or regarded as clever. Someone consistently doing this should be suspended.

The rules need to be more black and white and take away the need for interpretation. I think the players would quickly adapt and even appreciate it.

 

[RedCentrePower]

There should be an "UMPIRE ERROR" recorded on the stats sheet. Those 2 in the backs + Youngs on Friday night were 3 blatant examples. That shiney nude nut made another "Ump Error" when he "Guessed" that free against Ebert - his explanation to Ebert was a bald faced lie. ( Crikey Bondi Buddy & Goods get away with fend offs in the face & throat every game. Credit to 'blood nut" Lingy who at least had the courage to say they were not right. I'm with you REH on your video suggestion. The TV replays showed us plenty of these ump errors. The AFL Ump Dept must get to see them along with their own in house videos. As the TV video operators are able to replay them so quickly to the public, I suggest they could & should compile a video of all these Ump Errors + the Frees paid. Champion Data have stats on every other thing that occurs on the oval. As I've said many times before - if the AFL want to promote our game to the world - they need to get more professional and get every decision correct - E.G. the NFL & NBL where the game does not go on - unless every decision is correct. Being an ex umpire & coach myself, I do appreciate how difficult it can be for some to umpire the game. The lack of consistency in umpires decisions is a blight on the game.

 

[SgtSchulz]

I'm sure internally the AFL have a very detailed Umpire review system.

 

[pafc88]

I dont normally get angry about umpiring coz its such a pissant adelaide crow thing to do and whats the point.. But seriously i have never been as confused on the weekend with wtf the umpires were doing all game... Selwood was thrown around 360 degrees and playon and they were calling holding the ball for non ducking contests.. Was pretty comical.

 

[Stromageddon]

I'm generally not fussed by umpires. Without umpires, we'd have no game to watch.

Unfortunately though, with that, comes errors. They're human and its going to happen. If a couple incorrect decisions go against us, so be it. If it affects the result of the match then maybe we didn't deserve to win anyway.

However, all that said, I find it amusing how, in Adelaide and Perth, umpires are actively working against home-town bias. On the weekend, if a boo began to emerge, the umpires would be guaranteed not to pay a free. So in an effort to prove they're not affected by the crowd, they've just proved exactly that.

 

[Porked04]

I find the HB rule as confusing as anyone and the interpretation has become too convoluted. The one they got 100% right though was the Swallow decision on Saturday night. Swallow simply grabbed the ball with one hand and Goodes' leg with the other and made absolutely no attempt to dispose of the footy. Goodes was barely tackling him. The way Darcy was carrying on over the top was completely embarrassing, the campaigner should be forced to apologise to the umpires for his commentary over the decision.