Coach Fremantle: where to now after Lyon?

[Snuffaluphagus]

Look, I want to move him on as well but there is some revisionist rubbish trying to imply a guy who takes 2 clubs to 3 grand finals wasnt a very good coach.

Also, WillHayward, per every news report, the only thing keeping Langdon here has been Lyon, the guy idolises him. I dont know how you think you know better than champion ex-footballers on a guy they have spent infinitely more time with. How do you determine they have been drinking the kool aid and dont know how much a flog Lyon is when you (I presume) have never met him. How do you possibly think you know Lyon better than them?

 

[WillHayward]

Look, I want to move him on as well but there is some revisionist rubbish trying to imply a guy who takes 2 clubs to 3 grand finals wasnt a very good coach.

Also, WillHayward, per every news report, the only thing keeping Langdon here has been Lyon, the guy idolises him. I dont know how you think you know better than champion ex-footballers on a guy they have spent infinitely more time with. How do you determine they have been drinking the kool aid and dont know how much a flog Lyon is when you (I presume) have never met him. How do you possibly think you know Lyon better than them?

He was a good coach. He had good lists and probably under achieved. But he was good.

Was.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

He was a very good coach

Was.

So was Jock McHale.

Thats fine, I agree. It looks like he doesnt have it in him to get a flag and the game has gone passed him

Saying you know better than the guys praising him just looks stupid

 

[Quokka]

Yep, I still think getting Lyon was a very good move for Fremantle, Harvey had lost the players and Lyon straight away brought a professionalism and hardness that Freo had never been known for.

In short order Freo had; made consecutive finals, made a grand final and finished top of the ladder, each for the first time in their history.

In a fairly uncompetative list Lyon has easily been Fremantle's best coach so far and I am now 100% waiting for him to be gone.

 

[Priddis Is Done]

Look, I want to move him on as well but there is some revisionist rubbish trying to imply a guy who takes 2 clubs to 3 grand finals wasnt a very good coach.

Also, WillHayward, per every news report, the only thing keeping Langdon here has been Lyon, the guy idolises him. I dont know how you think you know better than champion ex-footballers on a guy they have spent infinitely more time with. How do you determine they have been drinking the kool aid and dont know how much a flog Lyon is when you (I presume) have never met him. How do you possibly think you know Lyon better than them?

All these plaudits, yet

The squad is rubbish
Players aren't progressing
Game plan based off effort
Don't draft for skills
Don't do skill based training


I know what my eyes see.

 

[Quokka]

All these plaudits, yet

The squad is rubbish
Players aren't progressing
Game plan based off effort
Don't draft for skills
Don't do skill based training


I know what my eyes see.

All these plaudits, yet

The squad is rubbish
The squad hasn't changed, but the available players have - since mid year when Freo was 7-5 and everyone was singing their praises.
Players aren't progressing
Brayshaw was easily Freo's best today, Pearce was in cracking form before going down with injury - some have, some havent, like most clubs.
Game plan based off effort
This is why we want Lyon gone
Don't draft for skills
This is also why we want Lyon gone
Don't do skill based training
This is also also why we want Lyon gone

I know what my eyes eye (you're only using one) see.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

All these plaudits, yet

The squad is rubbish
Players aren't progressing
Game plan based off effort
Don't draft for skills
Don't do skill based training


I know what my eyes see.

What Quokka said and all I said the guy clearly was a good coach. He got 2 clubs to three grand finals, thats a pretty rare feat in terms of coaches. I also said its time for him to go. Whats even your point with this post? You havent even addressed anything I said just went on some tangent that has little do with what I said

 

[WillHayward]

Thats fine, I agree. It looks like he doesnt have it in him to get a flag and the game has gone passed him

Saying you know better than the guys praising him just looks stupid

I don't know anything.

The recent results speak for themselves.

Facts trump opinions.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I don't know anything.

The recent results speak for themselves.

Facts trump opinions.

What are you talking about, your opinion that Lyon is a f-wit is purely opinion same as Dal Santo's opinion. Difference being that one of you as actually worked with him on a daily basis for several years. So what are you even talking about here.

You have already admitted you think he used to be a good coach, I have said I think his time is done and he needs to move on so we seem to be in agreement on this part so I have no idea what facts you are referring to.

 

[Freomaniac]

He’s prickly with the media so whether he deserves a whack or not, they give it to him. It’s a little annoying, but he does get asked some stupid questions.

You obviously don’t pay attention to Freo though and just get caught up in the Lyon hysteria.
Since starting rebuild Ladder position has been
16th in 2016
14th in 2017
14th in 2018
with % of mid 70s each time.
Each of those years we’ve never looked like playing finals or beating top teams and copped some absolute beltings.

2019 we sat in the 8 for half the year, beat some top 8 teams (Brisbane GWS Collingwood) and have a chance at finals still if good enough. % is up around mid 90s and have been in every game (bar derby 2) while losing some of our most important players - Pearce Taberner SHill Hogan and Lobb for periods.

But yeah, we haven’t improved..

in 2016, we got 4 wins and 18 defeats. should of got 6-7 wins instead. yeah it was a bad drop but we had to eventually go down at some point. scoring 73 points a game conceding 96

in 2017, we got 8 wins and 14 defeats had our fair share of close games and heavy defeats including that 89 point loss to port in round 2, the 100 point loss in round 10 and those back to back 104 point losses to Swans and tigers. Can make an arugment we should of won only a few as 6 games. can also make an argument we could of won as much as 10-12 wins too. scoring 72 points a game conceding 98.

2018, we got 8 wins again. lost 9 games by 50 points or more. 4 of them came between rounds 1-14. then has the bye in round 15, then the other 5 50 point defeats came between rounds 16-23. Just like 2017, the 2nd halfwas bad due to injuries to key players and due to playing more youth due to injuries again. Scoring 70 points a game conceding 92 points.

2019, we sit at 8 wins and 10 defeats. Dockers have had their fair share of narrow losses. only been thrashed twice, the derby by 91 points and the recent game vs the dogs by 47.

You keep saying 'rebuild' but

a) This could be four years without finals - I am surprised a fair few Freo fans are prepared to cop that
b) In the last game against Sydney, the average age of the side was 25 (1 year and 4 months older than Sydney who are decidedly in the rebuild stage now), and
c) Players like Sandilands and Ballantyne are still getting games.

I dont mind constructive critisim.

I posted this on the freo board and will post it on here..... If your going to have a 3-5 period of not making finals, make sure you have the core/foundation right.

when the 2016 draft and trade period came we got a lot of Key position players. We got Hamling, kersten and McCarthy through trades. Yes Kersten and Cam McCarthy can both play as CHFs as 2nd talls if the FF is a ruckman/forward in Lobb or a pure tall forward in Hogan.

we got Sean Darcy the ruckman. Brennan cox is a CHF/CHB, Logue is 193 cm and can play both ends and Duman is a tall defender. Now I am not looking at 1 year from now, im looking at 3-4 years from now. as those 18-20 year olds in 2016 draft will be 22-24 years old in 2020. KPPs take longer to develop.

In 2017, we got a lot of mids. In Cerra, Crowden, Brayshaw, Banfield and Giro. Now mids can develop quickly. those 18-19 year old mids in the 2017 draft, will be serviceable, in 2020, they will all be 21-22 year olds.

By 2020 we will have a young core of talent from the 2016 and 2017 drafts aged between 21-24.

Inside 50s are a terrible indicator of a good game style.

you are true in a way as players are 55 metres out, chip it to a team mate alone in the goal square to pass to a team mate on the other wing where that space is open to move.

I just personally believe that a club shouldn't settle for four/five year rebuilds. Plenty of premiership sides in the AFL era have proven you don't need an extended period of bottoming out to load up for a tilt. Players like Conca in the middle bracket are who you should be recruiting for almost nothing to help protect the kids coming through and Sandilands and Ballantyne should have been allowed to retire gracefully at the end of last year.

I know Jones and Meek haven't come on and players like Apeness prematurely retired but there were players like Keegan Brooksby who were willing to come west as a depth option, for example. Like some in this thread I am not convinced Ross Lyon has it in him to perform a proper rebuild even if some of the fault lies with the fitness staff and drafting and recruitment team.

1st off..... Sandilands only was kept as depth for 2019. Again..... Sean Darcy is from the 2016 draft. it is 2019, his 3rd season. Sandilands is gone this year. Darcy in 2020 will be 22 years old in his 4th season and leading our ruck stocks.

Again..... as stated, Sandi and Ballantyne only was kept due to trading away our 2018 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds. I knew once the 2018 season ended, I knew freo would trade pick 5 away and a 3rd rounder for a teams 10, 28 and 26 or there abouts or a mid 1st, 2nd and 3rd. If freo knew they were going to do that crazy trade with Port last year, ballantyne and Sandi would of likely to have been gone.


Your a west coast fan. Just like the crows, they expect things to turn around very quickly. the crows current team has 12 guys aged 27 or over. they need to strike while the Iron is hot.

Hawks have 9 guys aged 30 or over. Hawks need to make some hard calls to get rid of at least a few of them.

 

[Freomaniac]

Where are the suckholes to tell is he is the best coach?

right here mate, you want mark neeld to take over?

 

[Freomaniac]

If you think Aaron Sandilands, turning 37 years old this year and has so far played 28 of a possible 83 games offered something then that's your prerogative. He's a club champion, multiple All Australian, that at his prime was the best ruck in the comp - but that prime is long gone.

I had the same opinion on your lot convincing Pav to stay on for one more year too. I respect that Dockers fans may also disagree with me there.

So is Freo rebuilding or not?

Yet from 2012-15, he was playing every 2nd game as he was injured, hence why Jono Griffin and Zac Clarke got games.

Glad Pav played in 2016, ended up with 700 goals and 353 games.

Didn't you finish top in 2015? Plus you played a GF a few years earlier. It's a hell of a drop off and consistent to boot. There is clearly something wrong with team management for that to happen

Yeah we did. Again we were like Geelong in 2014. Freo in 2015 got 17 wins and 7 of them were by 2 goals or less, had we ended up with 13 or 14 wins in 2015, then got 6-7 wins in 2016, our decline would of been as bad, but it was expected.

As Stated, Ross Lyon is 20-30% of the problem. 40-50% of the blame goes to the recruiters and medical staff. Sorry, but you cant blame ross lyon for our 2009 1st rounder in Anthony Morabito and our 2013 1st rounder in a ruck/forward in Michael Apeness both getting Multiple knee injuries.

You see the talent Freo has on their list, and yet they play this type of football.

I'm sorry, but unless Ross has literally said to the board - "lets tank this season for picks", I have no idea how he stiill has a job.

Another weak post. you didnt say anything bad when freo scored 21 goals vs North in round 1.

Where too?

Both trashing their brand at Marvel.

Ross would be hoping Freo don’t turf him, because no club in their right mind would take him on.

That leaves only the Crows.

what ever. Lyon is a 55 year old man. My bet is he will coach freo in 2019 then reitre if he gets sacked next year. you think after 9 years at 1 million a year at freo, he saved half on what he had earned.

The Lyon worshippers have Stockholm Syndrome.

Mr '50 points is a good score' is an abuser.
An abuser of his fans. Of his players. Of his list. Of the game itself.

How he maintains his reputation and job is a great mystery.

yet your mob lost to us last week!

Letting Naughton go from under there noses... boy oh boy wowee

Apparently, Naughton hated freo. Still, he would of definately got games for freo right now. playing for freo every 2nd week and playing for peel.

We had picks 2 and 5 in the 2017 draft. Used pick 2 on Brayshaw and pick 5 on cerra. I think both blokes will be solid 200 gamers if they stay their whole career with us.

 

[Scotland]

Question for Ron The Bear

1. How many times has a Ross Lyon coach side scored 50-59 points in a game

I do know he's coached 20 finals and cracked 100 points once.

 

[Freomaniac]

I do know he's coached 20 finals and cracked 100 points once.

and that is irrelvant to be honest. Did your team score over 100 points in the 2006 and 2018 Grand finals?

 

[quotemokc]

Yet from 2012-15, he was playing every 2nd game as he was injured, hence why Jono Griffin and Zac Clarke got games.

Glad Pav played in 2016, ended up with 700 goals and 353 games.


Yeah we did. Again we were like Geelong in 2014. Freo in 2015 got 17 wins and 7 of them were by 2 goals or less, had we ended up with 13 or 14 wins in 2015, then got 6-7 wins in 2016, our decline would of been as bad, but it was expected.

As Stated, Ross Lyon is 20-30% of the problem. 40-50% of the blame goes to the recruiters and medical staff. Sorry, but you cant blame ross lyon for our 2009 1st rounder in Anthony Morabito and our 2013 1st rounder in a ruck/forward in Michael Apeness both getting Multiple knee injuries.


Another weak post. you didnt say anything bad when freo scored 21 goals vs North in round 1.


what ever. Lyon is a 55 year old man. My bet is he will coach freo in 2019 then reitre if he gets sacked next year. you think after 9 years at 1 million a year at freo, he saved half on what he had earned.
yet your mob lost to us last week!
Apparently, Naughton hated freo. Still, he would of definately got games for freo right now. playing for freo every 2nd week and playing for peel.

We had picks 2 and 5 in the 2017 draft. Used pick 2 on Brayshaw and pick 5 on cerra. I think both blokes will be solid 200 gamers if they stay their whole career with us.

Yeah he won't retire, people at the top of their field rarely do unless they are proper old.

 

[Freomaniac]

Mcgovern v3.0

It's hilarious it's still happening

not as bad as using pick 1 for paddy McCartin. Naughton was tempting but he hated freo apparently.

Passing on Naughton and then spending big money recruiting Hogan the following year is probably the most fremantle decision in the history of fremantle.

Nah..... trading picks 11, 27 and 43 for Josh carr would be much worse.

Again, we essentially traded lachie neale for Hogan. this time last year, Lachie neale was averaging 30 disposals a game and not a tall forward to kick to. Its a shame really

Absolutely, I posted once before that imo Freo are basically on track with the actual rebuild, its definitely not job done but I like the list overall, there is some talent there and once Sandi and Ballas retire the age profile is about where you want it.

But I'd question just about everything else about the Fremantle Football Club, the coaching staff, skills development, injury/personal management and definitely the selections, player positions and game day strategies.

Yep I am not deny Ross Lyon is perfect. But I question some selcection policies this season.

what has me gutted is Harely bennell constantly injured. watch hawthorn get him and revive his career like they did with tom scully

 

[Freomaniac]

Get rid of Lyon and put the focus back on skills and the list profile is right for a real shot in 2020. Looking into the fitness staff would definitely help too.

I know we joke and banter between the two Perth clubs a lot about Ross Lyon but he is toxic for football. A change to anyone else - Caracella, Ratten, Shaw, whoever - and I can guarantee that at least the style of football would be a lot more pleasing and results would follow shortly after.

Ross Lyon is toxic for football? Far from it. 1st half of the season, this mob kicked 141 vs North, 106 vs GWS and 100 vs Port.

Only reason freo are struggling is becuase the tall forwards are injured. I would get rid of the fitness staff and medical staff before I get rid of lyon.

Serious question and perhaps a tad cynical but Is Ross Lyon trying to get sacked. Is there a clause in his contract where he gets paid out for his final year if the club boots him?

Why would he want to get sacked after freo were 6-5 in round 11? The bloke isnt going from freo coach to centrelink

I think they're in long term rebuild territory here unfortunately.

They've addressed the KPP issues but their midfield is in its twilight. The slippery slope to the bottom is now going to occur.

Their most important player is mundy and he looks done come mid year. He's also in his mid 30s.

Fyfe is now approaching his 30s. His body is pretty damn fragile too.

They killed the mini rebuild as soon as they backed ross in. If they moved him on back in 2015. They would have had another flag shot.

Sadly for them that's gone. Time to start accumulating picks.

Ummm..... yeah it was a long term rebuild. Yes we got the young KPPs. the only mids that are in their twilight years are sandi and mundy and Stephen Hill. Why the hell would we have moved on with ross in 2015?

He would get paid out. How much? I dunno?

I don't think he's trying to get sacked. I think it's the opposite now. No one else will have him.

Worse case scenario is Lyon is sacked in 2020 and doesnt work again. Essentially, he retires. I assumed the bloke saved up half his earnings in his 8 years at freo. I mean Neil Craig was the crows coach from 2004-2011, he managed to get jobs with essendon and carlton.

I think he will be desperate to go now, he will want to get a deal at a new club, one more bad year at Freo, and any club would be nuts to take him on. not that it would be a wise move, for anyone to sign him on now.

2020 hinges to be a pivotal year for Ross Lyon. If he was out of contract, he would of been sacked already. Had freo made finals this year and lyon was out of contract this season, he would of got a contract extension.

I want Lyon to coach in 2020. worse case scenario, he plays a lot of youth with the dour footy. Best case scenario is we get 5th-8th and possibly a finals win.

I am being cynical but can't be the only one as there have been rumours swirling about that he is coming back to Melbourne. Either Carlton or St Kilda. The other way to look at it is he is trying to force Fremantle to release him from his contract (without the money). Certainly recent performances makes one wonder.

He wont get sacked with a year to go on his contract unless we get belted by 100 points each week for the next 4 weeks.

If he commits to Fremantle in 2020 and the club stays with him he and the club will do everything they can to have a succesful season and perform beyond expectations They will do whatever it takes to become a force .Lots of reputations and some careers are on the line .Big crunch year next year.I sort of hope they guts it out ,put it all on the line and go for it.

Now this is a neutral post. Its a similar situation with John Worsfold in 2010. Worsfold only was allowed to coach in 2011 for 3 reasons.....

1. he was and is a club legend.

2. after that 2002-7 finals era which pulled in 2 GFs and a flag, he had a chance to rebuild.

3. he also had a contract until 2011.

 

[Dede]

Any danger if Ross playing cerra in the centre seems a stubborn guy

 

[Damon_3388]

Gloria Estefan mate. Cuts both ways.

Genuinely LOL'd

 

[its free real estate]

right here mate, you want mark neeld to take over?

Is he the only other coach in the world?

 

[Peel67skin]

Ross Lyon is toxic for football? Far from it. 1st half of the season, this mob kicked 141 vs North, 106 vs GWS and 100 vs Port.

Only reason freo are struggling is becuase the tall forwards are injured. I would get rid of the fitness staff and medical staff before I get rid of lyon.
Why would he want to get sacked after freo were 6-5 in round 11? The bloke isnt going from freo coach to centrelink
Ummm..... yeah it was a long term rebuild. Yes we got the young KPPs. the only mids that are in their twilight years are sandi and mundy and Stephen Hill. Why the hell would we have moved on with ross in 2015?
Worse case scenario is Lyon is sacked in 2020 and doesnt work again. Essentially, he retires. I assumed the bloke saved up half his earnings in his 8 years at freo. I mean Neil Craig was the crows coach from 2004-2011, he managed to get jobs with essendon and carlton.
2020 hinges to be a pivotal year for Ross Lyon. If he was out of contract, he would of been sacked already. Had freo made finals this year and lyon was out of contract this season, he would of got a contract extension.

I want Lyon to coach in 2020. worse case scenario, he plays a lot of youth with the dour footy. Best case scenario is we get 5th-8th and possibly a finals win.
He wont get sacked with a year to go on his contract unless we get belted by 100 points each week for the next 4 weeks.


Now this is a neutral post. Its a similar situation with John Worsfold in 2010. Worsfold only was allowed to coach in 2011 for 3 reasons.....

1. he was and is a club legend.

2. after that 2002-7 finals era which pulled in 2 GFs and a flag, he had a chance to rebuild.

3. he also had a contract until 2011.

That's why I said strip teased footy, show you a little bit and go back to shell after that. I can't blame him for playing defensive football but he need to win matches, you are so Ross Lyon bond that any other coach suggested is Mark Neeld or Fremantle old era story. Fremantle get rid of Sumich and Stone ( before his harrasment scandal came out ) . Both are doing pretty well at lower level, Sumich won U18 and Stone 2nd year take Glenelg to the top of SANFL. In saying that I insist Ross stayed with Fremantle, don't want the new coach get the blame like St kilda.

 

[Magnum27]

A lot of stats being rolled out by Freo supporters, yet the only stat that matters is winning games, not too much of that being posted, and how they only sit above teams like Gold Coast and Carlton in the last 4 years for wins.

In a so called rebuild, yet the last few weeks he has brought in Sandi, poor bloke is done yet he is forced back in as some sort of saviour, then this week brings back Ballantyne, who has been done now for a few years, is barely getting a kick at Peel and has always struggled on the road. I'm sure Freo fans will bang on and say we have no one else, well they dropped a youngster because he hadn't kicked any goals - Switowski who is still learning the caper, you can't tell me him playing yesterday and getting AFL experience winning or losing is more beneficial to Freo in the long run than playing Ballantyne, reeks of a coach thinking only of himself and his own future rather than the clubs, because it is clear to most people who don't follow Freo that they were never winning the flag this year, even if they jagged a finals spot. Playing three rucks two who are slower than treacle, against a team who are small and love to run, mind boggling decisions keep coming from this man.

As i have said sign him up again, keeps my club of the back pages when we inevitably **** something up.

 

[its free real estate]

A lot of stats being rolled out by Freo supporters, yet the only stat that matters is winning games, not too much of that being posted, and how they only sit above teams like Gold Coast and Carlton in the last 4 years for wins.

In a so called rebuild, yet the last few weeks he has brought in Sandi, poor bloke is done yet he is forced back in as some sort of saviour, then this week brings back Ballantyne, who has been done now for a few years, is barely getting a kick at Peel and has always struggled on the road. I'm sure Freo fans will bang on and say we have no one else, well they dropped a youngster because he hadn't kicked any goals - Switowski who is still learning the caper, you can't tell me him playing yesterday and getting AFL experience winning or losing is more beneficial to Freo in the long run than playing Ballantyne, reeks of a coach thinking only of himself and his own future rather than the clubs, because it is clear to most people who don't follow Freo that they were never winning the flag this year, even if they jagged a finals spot. Playing three rucks two who are slower than treacle, against a team who are small and love to run, mind boggling decisions keep coming from this man.

As i have said sign him up again, keeps my club of the back pages when we inevitably fu** something up.

Mark Harvey was making the same bizarre decisions in his last year as coach. The club bit the bullet and punted him, easily the most ruthless thing we’ve ever did, led to a short run of good finals appearances and a grand final. We need to be ruthless again.

 

[WillHayward]

and that is irrelvant to be honest. Did your team score over 100 points in the 2006 and 2018 Grand finals?

It is relevant.

His low scoring style and inability to score always leaves the door open for close losses.

Then he can say he was 'unlucky when he loses a close one.

 

[Magnum27]

Mark Harvey was making the same bizarre decisions in his last year as coach. The club bit the bullet and punted him, easily the most ruthless thing we’ve ever did, led to a short run of good finals appearances and a grand final. We need to be ruthless again.

Agreed but will they, he seems to have some sort of spell over them.