guys that aren't up to AFL level

[Docker82]

Almost all of our depth are under 23, most are nowhere near their max level or will never be AFL standard and it is hard to tell them apart.

Richmond is not a good contrast, they are about 8 years ahead of where we are. Much easier to find depth around an established core. We are still trying to find half of our core.

I’m fine with our depth that look like they have potential, problem is only the really young ones seem to.

Ultimately with our depth players over 21, if we were to delist them wouldn’t be picked up by anyone else. There’s a lot of deadwood that could go immediately and replaced by the right 18 year olds, DFAs and state league players and you wouldn’t know the difference.

That’s coming from someone who actually thinks we’ve got around 16/22 of a premiership side (if injuries go our way) on the list currently as well.

 

[stax on the mull]

I don't think there's much wrong with our list. Just needs good coaching, patience and knowing each others strength and weaknesses inside out and getting them to the right fitness level.

On our current list we have 17 Top 20 picks or pre-draft picks. Of those only Matera, Conca and Mundy don't have much growth. I don't include Hill & Fyfe as no growth players as when they're fit they play at a high standard.

Then we have a premiership player Hamling. Another star in Walters. Players we think more likely can play at this level than can't
Lobb, Cox, Ryan, Darcy, Tucker, Blakely

Then we get into the rest of the list where we don't know. How many do we need to come good? Its only about 5-6 places. (the so called bottom 6)

AFL Premiership teams aren't without average players, even dud players. Richmond 2017 team had discards like Houli and Grigg who might never have been considered premiership players a year or two before. Actually they had about 9 players with 53 games or less and the only Top draft pick in that 9 was Dan Rioli.

Some players only have two or three really solid seasons in their career at a club but are just at the best at the right time. Think of players on our list like Ibbotson and C Pearce who missed the 2013 GF, or Mayne and Sutcliffe who played. Its right time, right place. The other good players can lift them.

 

[Joao]

I’m fine with our depth that look like they have potential, problem is only the really young ones seem to.

Ultimately with our depth players over 21, if we were to delist them wouldn’t be picked up by anyone else. There’s a lot of deadwood that could go immediately and replaced by the right 18 year olds, DFAs and state league players and you wouldn’t know the difference.

That’s coming from someone who actually thinks we’ve got around 16/22 of a premiership side (if injuries go our way) on the list currently as well.

Which players are you talking about? Just off the top of my head the only 23+ fringe players we have are Colyer, Matera, Schultz, Bewley and Blakely. Hughes and Conca seem well entrenched.

 

[Docker82]

Which players are you talking about? Just off the top of my head the only 23+ fringe players we have are Colyer, Matera, Schultz, Bewley and Blakely. Hughes and Conca seem well entrenched.

Pretty much nailed it but there’s a few younger guys who either seem to have major flaws or the club has no interest in giving games to as well.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

The thing is none of the guys mentioned so far are horrendously bad. They're just flat C Graders.
Any other club in the league could have a spot for one of these guys on the fringe to compliment a team of mostly A and B graders.
Good teams might have about a third A Graders, most of the rest B with a couple of C's that come in and out most weeks at selection. Average teams probably have more B players and less A.

We're in a somewhat awkward position where we have just two A Graders (Fyfe, Walters), a small handful of B Graders (either young guys who have not taken the step up yet, or guys like Pearce who could be A Grade but are always injured) with over half the team being C Grade. These C Graders are all triers, and will rack them up in the lower levels and look top notch at training and at time trials but will never elevate above C on a footy field. They're never shocking enough to be a clear cut delist, but won't deliver the club finals let alone a premiership, and our list is chockers full of them.

 

[Joao]

The thing is none of the guys mentioned so far are horrendously bad. They're just flat C Graders.
Any other club in the league could have a spot for one of these guys on the fringe to compliment a team of mostly A and B graders.
Good teams might have about a third A Graders, most of the rest B with a couple of C's that come in and out most weeks at selection. Average teams probably have more B players and less A.

We're in a somewhat awkward position where we have just two A Graders (Fyfe, Walters), a small handful of B Graders (either young guys who have not taken the step up yet, or guys like Pearce who could be A Grade but are always injured) with over half the team being C Grade. These C Graders are all triers, and will rack them up in the lower levels and look top notch at training and at time trials but will never elevate above C on a footy field. They're never shocking enough to be a clear cut delist, but won't deliver the club finals let alone a premiership, and our list is chockers full of them.

I don't think you can call them all yet since so many of them are under 24. It is true many will never get past C but there will be a handful that do and it is difficult to tell them apart at this point.

It would be different if they were all 25+ as you know then what you see is probably all you get.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

I don't think you can call them all yet since so many of them are under 24. It is true many will never get past C but there will be a handful that do and it is difficult to tell them apart at this point.

It would be different if they were all 25+ as you know then what you see is probably all you get.

I'm calling them all as they are today. I did say that some of our B players are young guys that haven't stepped up yet, same with some of the C's. Yes our list will look different in 2 years, but so will every other list in the comp and all fans think their young kids develop into A Graders.

So it's more purposeful to look at the problem at the present moment being that through list management, injuries or otherwise, we've ended up in a position where we have what clubs would call 'bottom 6' players being the majority of our team. So our list management has their work cut out for them to somehow lessen these numbers and bring in more top end talent whether through draft or trade. You can't sit on your hands and wait until Brayshaw and Cerra are 25+ and hope they sprout into A grade talent when evidence shows that their improvement ceiling might only be B Grade. And many other under 25's like Banfield, Crowden, Schultz, (you could go on) are young enough to improve, but clearly have a lower ceiling.

 

[eastfreo75]

The reason for playing WAFL level is players is our lack of small forwards and wingers.

Our midfielders are up to AFL standard but only Walters and Fyfe are A graders.

Our best backline is AFL standard, we cant get our best combination on the park. Pearce, Hamling, Logue, Young, Ryan, Hill, and Wilson is very good.

We need to address the lack of quality small forwards and wingers. Henry is part of the solution but we need more. Over time, our NGA might fix the issue. In the short term we need to recruit a quality small forward.

 

[Joao]

I'm calling them all as they are today. I did say that some of our B players are young guys that haven't stepped up yet, same with some of the C's. Yes our list will look different in 2 years, but so will every other list in the comp and all fans think their young kids develop into A Graders.

So it's more purposeful to look at the problem at the present moment being that through list management, injuries or otherwise, we've ended up in a position where we have what clubs would call 'bottom 6' players being the majority of our team. So our list management has their work cut out for them to somehow lessen these numbers and bring in more top end talent whether through draft or trade. You can't sit on your hands and wait until Brayshaw and Cerra are 25+ and hope they sprout into A grade talent when evidence shows that their improvement ceiling might only be B Grade. And many other under 25's like Banfield, Crowden, Schultz, (you could go on) are young enough to improve, but clearly have a lower ceiling.

Every club ever that did a full rebuild will have this type of list. There is literally no way to fill up your list other than with late picks or DFAs. Cartlon tried the latter and it clearly didn't work. This is exactly where you would expect us to be. From this point, the strength of the list management comes down to how good our talent ID and development is. It doesn't make sense to pot us for this state as it was entirely unavoidable once we decided to turn the list over.

You say we need more top end talent, but I ask you, how on earth do you get access to more top 10 picks? We have nobody to trade. The only players we have worth a top 10 are recent top 10 picks and Fyfe. You can try and trade future picks but you won't get value and over the long term it will be the same outcome anyway.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

Every club ever that did a full rebuild will have this type of list. There is literally no way to fill up your list other than with late picks or DFAs. Cartlon tried the latter and it clearly didn't work. This is exactly where you would expect us to be. From this point, the strength of the list management comes down to how good our talent ID and development is. It doesn't make sense to pot us for this state as it was entirely unavoidable once we decided to turn the list over.

You say we need more top end talent, but I ask you, how on earth do you get access to more top 10 picks? We have nobody to trade. The only players we have worth a top 10 are recent top 10 picks and Fyfe. You can try and trade future picks but you won't get value and over the long term it will be the same outcome anyway.

You've got to be shrewd and acknowledge that most players are up for trade - Cox, Brayshaw, Cerra, Tucker - none of these guys should be off the table. That doesn't mean we trade them all - but find out what value they have on the market and work on getting pick upgrades to the point where we again have multiple top 10's. Then make an assessment as to whether the talent in this draft is worth it, or use one or both top 10's on an elite player if there are any available. It's an opportunistic business - maybe there's a club out there with a surplus of mids and lack of talls. Cox would be good sweetener in such a deal if there was a B or A Grade mid up for grabs, along with maybe some second round picks that other fringe players might net us.
There's no single solution and it's not my job to work it out - but the problem at least is clear, and hopefully the guys whose job it is are doing plenty of work behind the scenes to work on it.

 

[Joao]

You've got to be shrewd and acknowledge that most players are up for trade - Cox, Brayshaw, Cerra, Tucker - none of these guys should be off the table. That doesn't mean we trade them all - but find out what value they have on the market and work on getting pick upgrades to the point where we again have multiple top 10's. Then make an assessment as to whether the talent in this draft is worth it, or use one or both top 10's on an elite player if there are any available. It's an opportunistic business - maybe there's a club out there with a surplus of mids and lack of talls. Cox would be good sweetener in such a deal if there was a B or A Grade mid up for grabs, along with maybe some second round picks that other fringe players might net us.
There's no single solution and it's not my job to work it out - but the problem at least is clear, and hopefully the guys whose job it is are doing plenty of work behind the scenes to work on it.

If you want to trash the culture of the club, putting up players for trade that haven't asked for it is a great way to achieve it. If we thought that they were surplus then I think that is fine, but I highly doubt that is how we see any of those players.

Also, we are not getting remotely close to value for any of those players. Anybody who traded for them would be buying low. Even and Andy and Cez aren't getting us more than a late first rounder. A pick around 30 is the best we would get for Cox and Tucker. It doesn't make sense to move former top 10 picks with 40 games on for less than a top 10 pick only to draft a top 10 pick with 0 games. You might do it for pick 1 to 3 but obviously nobody is giving you that pick.

We don't operate in a vacuum, every other club is trying to improve their position as well. Stands to reason that over time we will roughly break even. Thinking that you can get a sustained advantage for trading shenanigans is naive.

I am sure we are very open (and likely actively chase) players from other clubs. Every club does, it gets reported all the time.

TLDR: I guess my problem is your comments are too vague. If there is a specific move you think we should make put that up and we can discuss it. Which targets from other clubs do you think we should have? Why do you think they want to leave? Which club is going to give us a top 10 pick and for what?

I don't think there is anybody obviously available (A or B grade) and I don't see how we would trade in a top 10 pick without giving up our 2021 first.

 

[noise36]

Crows winning a lot of ball we are lucky they can't goal

 

[gungho]

Bewely puts in some defensive efforts that are really not good from time to time.

 

[Danny82]

Biggest guy not up to afl level so far is Longmuir.

Picks a tall forward line and then 15m slow chips to get it down there. Still no one at the fall of the ball and an outnumber.

Smashed in clearances last two weeks. Best clearance player goes out. No need to bring in another clearance player. Colyer late out another chance to bring in a runner or clearance player, let’s bring in Duman and stick him on the wing.

 

[eastfreo75]

Bewely puts in some defensive efforts that are really not good from time to time.

The work rate is there but the smarts are lacking a bit.

He allows a player on the boundary to side step him to the middle. Needs to use the boundary as a friend and channeling his player.

Sonetimes it’s better to force the kick then have a failed tackle attempt.

 

[freo1997]

Biggest guy not up to afl level so far is Longmuir.

Picks a tall forward line and then 15m slow chips to get it down there. Still no one at the fall of the ball and an outnumber.

Smashed in clearances last two weeks. Best clearance player goes out. No need to bring in another clearance player. Colyer late out another chance to bring in a runner or clearance player, let’s bring in Duman and stick him on the wing.

Yeah kinda agree. He's probably still working a few people out. I remember Ross Lyons first year putting in a few games into Nick Lower, Van Berlo and the Jack Anthony's of the world..probably to test the waters with the 22.

Feel like Jlo is a decent game day strategist. But has alot to improve on.

 

[Freoforever86]

I think Shultz can play. But I think and hope the more talented guys like Henry and Serong push him out.

I don’t rate Bewley at all. Average kick and poor defensive running.Hoping Acres comes in soon.

 

[MadMundy]

Looking back Schultz was fine yesterday. He'll stay until someone can come straight in for him. Hopefully Henry.

 

[summerthebat]

Schultz shows terrific defensive intent, but we're dying in the forward line when the ball hits the deck.

We're generating next to nothing when our talls bring the ball to ground, which really should be his primary role. He's generating nothing on the scoreboard, so he needs to be replaced or significantly lift is output.

 

[Channels]

I think Shultz can play. But I think and hope the more talented guys like Henry and Serong push him out.

I don’t rate Bewley at all. Average kick and poor defensive running.Hoping Acres comes in soon.

Who Am I?

Ranked #4 in the club for disposal efficiency
Ranked #5 in the club for effective disposals
Ranked #4 in the club for effective kicks
Ranked #6 in the club for Ground Ball Gets
Ranked #5 in the club for Metres Gained
Ranked #9 in the club for Pressure Acts
Ranked #3 in the club for Rebound 50's
Ranked #6 in the club for Score Involvements
Ranked #8 in the club for Tackles
Ranked #4 in the club for Tackles inside 50
Ranked #11 (equal with Brayshaw & Mundy) in the club for turnovers

Tell me again why Bewley is the problem here?

 

[Cesoir]

Who Am I?

Ranked #1 in the club for whippability
Ranked #4 in the club for disposal efficiency
Ranked #5 in the club for effective disposals
Ranked #4 in the club for effective kicks
Ranked #6 in the club for Ground Ball Gets
Ranked #5 in the club for Metres Gained
Ranked #9 in the club for Pressure Acts
Ranked #3 in the club for Rebound 50's
Ranked #6 in the club for Score Involvements
Ranked #8 in the club for Tackles
Ranked #4 in the club for Tackles inside 50
Ranked #11 (equal with Brayshaw & Mundy) in the club for turnovers

Tell me again why Bewley is the problem here?

You missed one.

 

[Scham]

Who Am I?

Ranked #4 in the club for disposal efficiency
Ranked #5 in the club for effective disposals
Ranked #4 in the club for effective kicks
Ranked #6 in the club for Ground Ball Gets
Ranked #5 in the club for Metres Gained
Ranked #9 in the club for Pressure Acts
Ranked #3 in the club for Rebound 50's
Ranked #6 in the club for Score Involvements
Ranked #8 in the club for Tackles
Ranked #4 in the club for Tackles inside 50
Ranked #11 (equal with Brayshaw & Mundy) in the club for turnovers

Tell me again why Bewley is the problem here?

Top 5 or GTFO.

 

[Joao]

The pressure acts surprise me because opposition players seem to run around him like he isn't there.

 

[nurries]

#1 in the club for broken tackles against

 

[Paracleet]

Bewley has been okay. He's one of those players whose flaws* lead to errors that stick in the mind of fans. Most fans don't think in terms of process, it's simpler to draw inferences from single events.

*His agility is below AFL standard: Until he starts to factor this in by making a conscious effort to stay centre side of his opponent and force them wide, he will continue to get side-stepped in a hideously embarrassing fashion.
Agility aside he is fine. Wing is too important a position to leave to a C+ grader, and he will eventually be superseded, but he's fine for the moment.