Has Nic Naitanui Underachieved?

Did NN underachieve based on his potential

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Mop

Mop

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Three years ago this would have been blasphemous.
There is no doubt Nic Naitanui has been a terrific and loyal servant of the club. He also had two knee injuries which don’t factor into my reasoning - he has no blame for those.

I mean personally for him. I think we’re all disappointed in his last season - his lack of conditioning and his overweight shape led to him being an absolute passenger when he was on the field.

We have him for perhaps one more season and he’s starting it injured again.

He was supposed to be a step up from Dean Cox who in turn was a step up from Michael Gardiner who in turn was a step up from Jason Ball.

In hindsight - Cox was a better player over a bigger period of time. NN didn’t surpass Cox.

Was my belief wrong? We knew NN was raw. We knew he wasn’t a pure footballer. We knew his game was based on athleticism.

Im sure no one would go back to that draft and pick Rich over Naitanui with pick 2, but given what could have been - did he underachieve?
 
Dean Cox is in the conversation for the greatest ruckman of all time. If your pass mark for NN is being better than him then that is a ridiculous bar to set
 

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Farang83150 said:
Also 🍏 and 🍊
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This was my thinking.

Cox was, relative to his era, by far the best. His auxiliary midfielder capabilities at a time when all ruckman ever did was rest forward was revolutionary.

BUT yes, I expected NN to similarly impact football relative to the era and his skill. In the end though, he’ll be the dude with the big jump who was a very good ruckman, but Gawn probably has him covered as best of the era in my opinion
 
Doashuey said:
I added precisely the amount this thread warranted.
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Clearly you value your own opinion eh chief?

FWIW I think Shuey has been a massive underachiever also and should’ve retired last season. His best is very good but we saw it that frequently his career equates to that of a B+ midfielder.
 
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Doashuey said:
I added precisely the amount this thread warranted.
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Okay. I’ll make it easy for you and simplify it to a question you might be able to understand.

Gawn, Grundy, NN. You have all 3 on the table knowing up until this very day what they become - which do you draft?
 
Mop said:
This was my thinking.

Cox was, relative to his era, by far the best. His auxiliary midfielder capabilities at a time when all ruckman ever did was rest forward was revolutionary.

BUT yes, I expected NN to similarly impact football relative to the era and his skill. In the end though, he’ll be the dude with the big jump who was a very good ruckman, but Gawn probably has him covered as best of the era in my opinion
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From another thread but relevant here

Keys said:
Naitanui- games by year

2009- 10/11 (debuted in R12)
2010- 22/22
2011- 23/25
2012- 22/24
2013- 11/22 (missed R1-5, 18-23)
2014- 20/22
2015- 23/25
2016- 15/23 (missed R14-19, R22 injured knee)
2017- DNP/24
2018- 15/25 (R8 suspended, R17 injured knee)
2019- 5/24 (missed R1-14, 18-23)
2020- 17/18
2021- 22/22
2022- 8/22 (missed R2, 5-15, 18-19,23)

From 13 full seasons played 20+ games 6 times plus 2020 when he missed 1 game in a shortened season. So 6 seasons where he played less than 20 games

Played 213 of a possible 309 games since debut

Of the 96 games he missed -

• 48 were due to his 2 knee reconstructions across 2016-19
• 11 were due battling OP in 2013 after having surgery at the end of 2012
• 6 were due to mid season Achilles surgery in 2016
• 6 were due to a syndesmosis strain in late 2019
• 13 were due to a medial ligament injury in early 2022 and ongoing soreness thereafter resulting in further post season surgery
• 12 were due to an assortment of 1-2 game absences that I’m not researching but there was a one week suspension and a week off due to covid amongst it

So aside from from his 2 knee reconstructions he’s had OP (2013), Achilles surgery (2016) and a medial ligament (2022).

The Achilles problem he’s currently having is said to be an ongoing issue he’s been managing for years

It’s almost as if he’s had an issue with being able to do any significant running since he had groin issues requiring surgery in the 2012 post season. I doubt the medical staff have deliberately been putting weight on him but have instead had to manage his training loads due to a number of leg injuries including reconstructions on both knees
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Keys said:
Gawn was drafted in 2009 (one year after Naitanui) and has played 181 games compared to Naitanui’s 213

That’s largely because he only played 39 games during his first 5 years because he had 2 knee reconstructions during his early years. By comparison Naitanui had played 88 in his first 5 years

From 2016 Gawn has been very durable (aside from missing 9 games in 2017, he’s not missed many others)

He has a naturally lighter frame than Naitanui and arguably benefited from playing less games with a younger body getting smashed into by stronger opponents

Averages - Naitanui v Gawn

Kicks : 5.28 v 8.88
Marks: 1.75 v 4.50
H/Balls : 7.07 v 6.39
Disposals: 12.34 v 15.27
Goals : 0.53 v 0.49
Hitouts : 26.07 v 33.84
Tackles : 3.38 v 2.51
Clearances : 4.23 v 3.31
Contested Possessions : 9.59 v 8.66


In terms of value for money we’ve had as many good years out of Naitanui as Melbourne have from Gawn.

It should also be noted that whilst Naitanui has been among our highest paid players (possibly the highest in one or more years) a large part of his salary comes out of the marketing budget/allowance. Which is fair since he’s been the face of the club virtually since he walked in the door and has not once done anything to tarnish the club’s image despite being one of the most instantly recognisable people in Perth

Gawn is only just now catching up to Nic in terms of cumulative wear and tear on his body. Let’s see how he fares over the next couple of years albeit he now has Grundy to share the load
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Naitanui has been harshly judged since he first entered the AFL

He doesn’t play a traditional ruck role so gets criticised for what he doesn’t do by people who overlook what he does do well to impact significantly on games. He has also been limited by knee reconstructions on both knees along with other leg injuries

Never complains and has been nothing other than an asset to the club on and off field

In short, no, he hasn’t underachieved
 
Mop said:
This was my thinking.

Cox was, relative to his era, by far the best. His auxiliary midfielder capabilities at a time when all ruckman ever did was rest forward was revolutionary.

BUT yes, I expected NN to similarly impact football relative to the era and his skill. In the end though, he’ll be the dude with the big jump who was a very good ruckman, but Gawn probably has him covered as best of the era in my opinion
Click to expand...
Nic burst out of the gates and is arguably still our most important (but not best) player. It took Max a loooooong time to become the game's best ruckman and yet Nic has still earned AA jumpers as recently as 2021.

For me, comparing Nic to Gawn is a bit like comparing Judd to Ablett. Gawn/Ablett were amazing players over a long period of time but Nic/Judd had a far greater impact on individual games of football.
 

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Keys said:
From another thread but relevant here





Naitanui has been harshly judged since he first entered the AFL

He doesn’t play a traditional ruck role so gets criticised for what he doesn’t do by people who overlook what he does do well to impact significantly on games. He has also been limited by knee reconstructions on both knees along with other leg injuries

Never complains and has been nothing other than an asset to the club on and off field

In short, no, he hasn’t underachieved
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Yes he was harshly judged - the AFL wasn’t ready for someone to be different 15 years ago.

Let’s compare him to JK. I consider him to have overachieved based on expectation - a third of the Judd trade, slightly underwhelming at Carlton in his first season.

As a metric tester, can we agree no one expected him to he just as dominant as he was?
 
Barrybran said:
Nic burst out of the gates and is arguably still our most important (but not best) player. It took Max a loooooong time to become the game's best ruckman and yet Nic has still earned AA jumpers as recently as 2021.

For me, comparing Nic to Gawn is a bit like comparing Judd to Ablett. Gawn/Ablett were amazing players over a long period of time but Nic/Judd had a far greater impact on individual games of football.
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Good post. I accept all of the above posts and thoughts.

I like the analogy.
 
For me it comes down to what is meant by "underachieved".

Underachieved as to the potential that he could have been sans injury, sure. He was robbed of his prime years because of injuries and has struggled because of the injuries with peak fitness since (and yes, I get the arguments that maybe more could have been done with his fitness regardless). But he won two AA's post terrible injury and when on the park, his impact to the team has generally been second to none, so it would be harsh to say he has underachieved when playing (other than last year when he was clearly injured/struggling with fitness because of injury). So to me, we have been robbed of some of NN's best years and never got to see what he could have been without injury but I don't think he has underachieved on a personal level in his performances when playing.
 
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3xAA
2x Club Champion
200+ games

Will take that every day of the week. Thought he was a gamble at the time, Daniel Rich was the safe choice. Nic Nat's more than upheld his end of the bargain and that doesn't include all the off field s**t. Kids love him.

Would have loved to have seen him with a premiership medal but alas it wasn't to be.
 
Just to set a baseline

I don’t expect Oscar Allen to eclipse JK’s legacy but I expect he’ll comfortably eclipse JD and Suma (and Quinten Lynch)

I expect Ginbey to be basically Brad Sheppard-esque. Maybe underrated but always hard at it. Shep is probably my second favourite ever Eagle so that’s no small comparison

Hewett? Not sure. Jury is out
 
Has he underachieved.........?

Yes and No

If there was an argument for Natural talent and physical tools triumphing over hard work, Nic would be exhibit A

On one hand, he (particularly when he was younger) was one of the most freakishly quick and nimble AFL players that i have ever seen for a man of that size. Ever. He could legitimately do things no other ruckman could do. Tap work and follow up ruck work was sublime

He is also probably the only player, ever, that could make an All Australian side by playing half a game every week.

But i cannot help but think, that he still had another level that he could have gotten too if he really applied himself and the club stopped pissing in his pocket. Fitness, has long been an issue with Nic Nat, and he hadn't helped himself by presenting every year of the last few years heavier then ever and the club hasn't helped either by saying that he was fully fit when he clearly wasn't. I have waited his entire career for Nic to have his "Max Gawn" moment: realizing that the more he can stay on the ground, the more ground he can cover, the more he can affect the result of the match. Where he has the pre season of his life, drops 8-10kgs, is staying on the ground longer then ever and getting from contest to contest without having to go to the bench every 5 minutes. But it never happened (and it certainly wont happen at this point of his career)

The school of thought seems to be that if he can make All Australian whilst playing only half a game, he doesnt need to get fitter. I would argue that he can make an All Australian side playing half a game every week, imagine what he could do if he was really fit

The man will rightfully go down as a club legend. Could he have produced more? Personally, i think so
 
The wily weagle said:
The man will rightfully go down as a club legend. Could he have produced more? Personally, i think so
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This is exactly my logic. You’ve hit the nail on the head.

Injury can’t be discluded either
 
Ambrose Burnside said:
3xAA
2x Club Champion
200+ games

Will take that every day of the week. Thought he was a gamble at the time, Daniel Rich was the safe choice. Nic Nat's more than upheld his end of the bargain and that doesn't include all the off field s**t. Kids love him.

Would have loved to have seen him with a premiership medal but alas it wasn't to be.
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Yeah really good point about his brand value (albeit isn't something you really draft footballers for).

I think there was chatter in mainstream media when GWS were coming into the comp that they should go really hard for Nic Nat just for the brand value ala Sydney and Buddy.
 
I think the only real question over Nic is would have been even better and/or avoided injury if he had achieved higher levels of fitness. Did he give the ultimate effort or was he satisfied with just being one of the most dominant big men the league has seen?

It's a question of what more did we miss out on rather than a question of whether or not he has been an influential player over his career. The guy has dominated, when he has been fit, since day 1.
 
Keys said:
Guy came back from two knee reconstructions and made AA twice

But yeah he doesn’t work hard enough
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I will keep this simple:

The knee is a weight bearing joint
Nic is required to jump for a living
Both knees have been reconstructed

Thus; does is make sense to present:
i) as light as you possibly can, for the sake of your body and career
or
ii) the heaviest you have been for your entire career

Clearly, Nic falls into the latter category. Which means a breakdown is happening somewhere. Either Nic is not working hard enough and/or not paying careful enough attention to his nutrition, diet and calorie consumption. The medical team and fitness team are giving him poor advice. The coaching staff are letting him get away with being heavier then ever, or, any/all of the above

And you kind of encapsulated what i said above: You're saying that because Nic made All Australian, despite being heavier then ever and playing half a match, that is ok
I would say that if he is able to achieve that whilst being heavier then ever and playing half a game, imagine what he could do if he was fitter then ever and able to play almost a full game

The man will go down as a club legend, that isn't in dispute. But it would be a long bow to draw if you believe that he couldn't have been fitter and worked a little harder over the course of his career
 
2F682A01-A7CB-4EED-A593-F51F70EDCE34.gif

Has had an incredible career and has even continued to dominate post multiple knee recons for a guy his size. Still our most impactful player 14 years later. The only thing stopping him from being our best ever ruckman is a first ballot no questions asked position changer Hall of Famer in Dean Cox, and even then I think it’s a stance someone could argue in good faith.

Arguably the best tap ruckman of all time, and has been our best contested midfielder for years. Not remotely an underachiever.
 
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