Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[sageslayer]

In Fagan's defence and I am sure I am not alone- but I go 2-3 days without seeing all emails and the same with voicemails - I usually dial into my voicemails only 1-2 per week and Im less likely to dial into it if it is a number i dont know.

Perhaps Im being to defensive of Fagan but I dont see how 24 hours notice is remotely reasonable notice - not even close if you ask me.

Not just that but the season had just ended for his club. Other than exit interviews I imagine he wanted a few days off without thinking about work after a Prelim loss.

HAving heard the likes of Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell and Burgoyne speak today, would I be naive in saying that I find it odd that these ex-Hawks are completely distancing themselves from all of this and saying they had no knowldege of this which I admit I find it hard to believe that such massive allegations didnt find its way to one, some or if not all of these players and b/c they did nothing they are all claiming ignorance - perhaps that is a long bow to draw - but I feel like I can't buy that players dont hear about this

I do believe they had no knowledge but I do also believe there is much more to the story that we don't know. Considering what length of time and the effect mental health and trauma can have on memories. Is it possible that for example, for the footballer who Clarkson allegedly told him to have his partner get an abortion, he had mixed up memories in which Fagan was in the room for other meetings with the coaches with this memory he recalled. Especially considering Fagan has denied even being present for this meeting. I know when I recall memories from years ago, specific events and specific memories stick out but sometimes they slightly mold together and I can't remember who exactly might've been part of a particular conversation I had but I can remember who I'd often have conversations with in that particular location.

 

[lioninthesand]

Could the truth be that the allegations aren’t true or are we only allowed to blindly believe the players making the allegations?

It’s possible the allegations arnt true. This is scalable. I’ve seen lots of explayers unload on their former team about treatment on twitter or a podcast, it usually passes pretty quickly. Cyril tried to tell his story and was largely discredited as chasing money or being a lier and Jeff is still there.

Here, we have three seperate players and their families giving detailed experience of similar things happening. It has also been filtered through a formal review.

So, the chances all three players were somehow coerced into completely fabricating this story for no reason and or essentially scripting a fake story in detail, and the reviewers believing it and tabling it, would seem pretty unlikely, you’d think.

So I think it’s normal people would lean toward giving it credence, it essentially has witness testimony.

From here, the investigation has to establish context, level of culpability, motives, who was where when etc

Do I think the report will come back saying ‘all three players and their families lied about this entire affair for reasons unknown, case closed’? No I don’t.

Do I think it will come back confirming everything they have claimed as irrefutable fact, no way.

It’ll probably be somewhere in the middle you’d imagine, how close to the middle the needle lands will determine if Fages is coaching us next year.

 

[BangyBangy]

i think the abc is perfectly entitled to run a story dedicated to airing just the stories of the victims. believe all victims means we should listen to their accounts and respect what they have to say without a counter narrative having to be alongside it at the time

by the same token, we should acknowledge that believing victims means taking their claims seriously and investigating them thoroughly. it doesnt mean we have to jump to hasty conclusions on the alleged perpetrators within less than 24 hours of the story breaking

I think that's my biggest gripe. Virtually everything I've seen since has just taken the article as fact. It's a very serious claim that needs professional investigation with appropriate repercussions.

Tom14 I would've been happier if they just ran the story from the players perspective without trying to bullshit that they tried to get Fagan's & Clarko's rebuttable. They had no interest in providing a balanced story. Fair enough, just state it.

 

[McIvor]

Could the truth be that the allegations aren’t true or are we only allowed to blindly believe the players making the allegations?

I think thats a fair point and whilst unsurprising, Robbo and Whately on 360 didn't for a second intimate that the allegations could in fact not be true. I'm not saying they aren't, but cmon, they didnt even consider the altnative which is unfair in of itself given how much Fagan and Clarkson have given to there show - in fact, it was complete faux outrage for mine and they basically have taken the reporters word as fact.

I think Fagans stuffed either way as the court of public opnion will see to it that there is no coming back.

 

[briztoon]

I'm a little surprised that no one else has mentioned that Eddie Betts mentioned on AFL360 that he knows one of the men from the ABC article, and he will be reaching out to him.

 

[McIvor]

Do I think the report will come back saying ‘all three players and their families lied about this entire affair for reasons unknown, case closed’? No I don’t.

Do I think it will come back confirming everything they have claimed as irrefutable fact, no way.

It’ll probably be somewhere in the middle you’d imagine, how close to the middle the needle lands will determine if Fages is coaching us next year.

I think I may have deleted the part I wanted to quote but being in HR and having had lots of uncomfortable meetings over the years and some very memorable ones - i can't believe, unless you have fastidious notes or diaries that you can seriously recall who is present at some of those meetings, particularly many many years ago. The only person I think would be remembered is the senior coach such as Clarkson so I think he may be in trouble but the only way I see Fagan coming out of it is if Clarkson himself says Fagan either wasnt there or had no knowledge of it. If Fagan wasnt there then clearly there will be some doubt as to how he wouldnt have known about some of this stuff, unless it was fabricated or severly embellished.

 

[BrizzyBandit]

The BS flying around in here is unbelievable.

None of us know anything about anything yet. Stop making this political points and making black and white statements.


Are the allegations horrible? Yes.
Should they be taken seriously? Yes.
Should coaches be stood down pending the investigation? Yes.

Does any part of this story make sense based on what we know about Fages? No.

Can the ABC.. or any other media outlet be trusted? No.

Are we missing an entire side of the story? Yes.

Am I proud of how the Lions led by Fagen places special importance on our indigenous players and their culture? Yes.


Everything else is BS. We are in for a horrible wait. Let the truth come out what ever that is. please.

 

[BangyBangy]

Can the ABC.. or any other media outlet be trusted? No.

Are we missing an entire side of the story? Yes.

Am I proud of how the Lions led by Fagon places special importance on our indigenous players and their culture? Yes I am.


Everything else is BS. We are in for a horrible wait. Let the truth be uncovered please.

Fagan.

Sorry, had to.

Agree with everything in your post too

 

[lioninthesand]

The BS flying around in here is unbelievable.

None of us know anything about anything yet. Stop getting political everyone.

Are the allegations horrible? Yes.
Should they be taken seriously? Yes.
Should coaches be stood down pending the investigation? Yes.

Does any part of this story make sense based on what we know about Fages? No.

Can the ABC.. or any other media outlet be trusted? No.

Are we missing an entire side of the story? Yes.

Am I proud of how the Lions led by Fagen places special importance on our indigenous players and their culture? Yes I am.


Everything else is BS. We are in for a horrible wait. Let the truth be uncovered please.

You have literally just summarised sentiment of the board in general terms, who are you having a go at?

What BS is flying around? The conversation has been great.

If by getting ‘political’ you mean not discussing the plight of the victims and the potential treatment of indigenous footballers, I’d think that would be completely impossible and infact, unhealthy, given the situation we find ourselves in.

 

[lioninthesand]

Just scanned the North board, man they are taking it well.

 

[BangyBangy]

Just scanned the North board, man they are taking it well.

As well as when their priority picks were announced?

 

[McIvor]

I know when I recall memories from years ago, specific events and specific memories stick out but sometimes they slightly mold together and I can't remember who exactly might've been part of a particular conversation I had but I can remember who I'd often have conversations with in that particular location.

Hence why lawyers annoy me when in court they pull people up for not remembering something or changing small details about something years ago as if they are being dishonest. I think the facts are so obviously blurred that I cant see how the reporters "facts" are not without error.

Hell, I would get details wrong about meetings I had with people last week and even people involved if you asked me about them from last week, yet peoples reputations, livliehoods etc are on the line on account of peoples recollections from 10 odd years ago.

Not literally, but Fagan is a dead man walking in this situation - I hope the Lions are getting on their skates in finding a new coach for next year b/c we are clearly going to need one. I hope Fagan gives his blessing but seriously how can we sit idly by for the rest of the year. It sort of feels like it is untenable from here.

 

[snooplions]

Just scanned the North board, man they are taking it well.

Feeling really bad for them. Their one positive bit of news for the year/years(?) and it just collapses before he’s even started rebuilding their club.

 

[Hollow Knight]

You said that people don’t want to hear Eddie’s opinion on racism, my point is clear don’t watch his show, also one poster said he shouldn’t be allowed a platform, it’s his show he can do what he wants, if people don’t like it then don’t watch it

Hardly a sophisticated or insightful point. My point to you would be not to ask for people's criticisms if you are just going to dismiss them out of hand. Save everyone's time.

 

[rwan566]

So speculation is the player involved is Garlett, a player who was found by a court to be addicted by meth his entire career and only one club would take a punt on.

Hawthorn put him with hodge to try to straighten him out. I trust fages

 

[lioninthesand]

I think I may have deleted the part I wanted to quote but being in HR and having had lots of uncomfortable meetings over the years and some very memorable ones - i can't believe, unless you have fastidious notes or diaries that you can seriously recall who is present at some of those meetings, particularly many many years ago. The only person I think would be remembered is the senior coach such as Clarkson so I think he may be in trouble but the only way I see Fagan coming out of it is if Clarkson himself says Fagan either wasnt there or had no knowledge of it. If Fagan wasnt there then clearly there will be some doubt as to how he wouldnt have known about some of this stuff, unless it was fabricated or severly embellished.

100% - I think there’s a chance Fagan wasn’t in the room. He was said to be in different locations when these alleged incidents occurred, 2 meeting rooms and the house, from memory - so we just need to hope he can reasonably prove that - and or - get the victims to jog their memory and agree they infact incorrectly placed him in various situations, when drawing on their collective recollections. I think this, him proving he was not present, is his main hope.

Again though, not great for Clarko, his right hand man not going for ‘it didn’t happen’ instead going for ‘I wasn’t there’..

 

[lioninthesand]

So speculation is the player involved is Garlett, a player who was found by a court to be addicted by meth his entire career and only one club would take a punt on.

Hawthorn put him with hodge to try to straighten him out. I trust fages

There’s 3 players involved. Also, being addicted to a drug of dependence does not justify the alleged actions, it makes it worse.

This would have no bearing on the allegations standing or report findings imo.

 

[BangyBangy]

There’s 3 players involved. Also, being addicted to a drug of dependence does not justify the alleged actions, it makes it worse.

This would have no bearing on the allegations standing or report findings imo.

Might not make him the most reliable witness though, if all the SVU shows I have watched are correct.

 

[briztoon]

Clearly, there’s a lot of water to go under the bridge with this.

However, under Fagan’s coaching we’ve brought in a number of First Nations players from other clubs, whilst our academy product Coleman is thriving. Mitch seemed to have good rapport with Fagan until recently (though that doesn’t seem to be related). His wife is Aboriginal, and has been engaged by the Club to do our Doug Nicholls round jumper in previous years IIRC.

Indigenous players at AFL clubs are well connected with and to each other. Players talk and share experiences - think back to Matt Rendell and how that news came out. For many seasons we had very limited Indigenous representation on our list which, without looking in detail, I would say has markedly improved in recent years. This surely says something about the environment we have created. Could we improve it? I’m sure the answer is yes - but that would be true for any of the 18 clubs in the AFL/W.

The fact there has been nothing said previously about Fagan suggests to me that he may be collateral damage in all of this.

That said, the allegations are heinous and being a senior figure at the club during that time doesn’t reflect well on him - fairly or unfairly - by association.

Of course if his version is that he objected most strenuously to the processes but was over-ruled and his only options were to resign over it or to stay and do his best to mitigate the outfall etc then he would be simultaneously semi-clearing himself and throwing Clarkson et al under the bus. If it comes out through a third party that that is what happened then he is not the disloyal one.

Mind you even if the attitude was that kids were a distraction and family that weren't fully on board were a distraction and that young kids led to sleepless nights led to bad game day performances and that you have a small window to make the most of your professional career then simply letting the players know that while they were supportive of their choices but priority would be given to performance and failure to kick on or lack of professionalism would have inevitable consequences would at least leave the choices in their hands (since the AFL Draftee contract somehow fails to mentioned a contraceptive requirement for the first contract or the stipulated reproduction approval requirement by the relevant Club)

Thinking back - wasn't Rendell trying to avoid these kind of 'complications' by avoiding drafting folk from a less statistically reliable cohort?

Rendell actually didn’t say it.

Adam Simpson said it, and Rendell was asked to explain what Simpson meant, on Trade Radio.

 

[Jivlain]

So speculation is the player involved is -------------------------------------------------------------------

Hawthorn put him with hodge to try to straighten him out. I trust fages

Let's avoid engaging in speculation about who the players involved are. They were not named in the media, for good reason, and let's keep it that way.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Regardless no one has the right to advocate abortion.

The father does.

 

[CarterS]

how do you prove something didn’t happen or you weren’t present for a meeting a dozen years ago?

I wish I had as much faith in the system as the people who say he has nothing to worry about if he is innocent, the truth will come out.

 

[Required]

Let's avoid engaging in speculation about who the players involved are. They were not named in the media, for good reason, and let's keep it that way.

I get that. But what i dont get is why an accusation can be made and the names of the alleged offenders are put up in bright lights to a horrified public, basically convicted before their side comes out, regardless of the mud that will stick to them if found guilty or innocent.

In fact they cant ever be found innocent in a 'he said, she said' situation where its ones word against another. Clarkson and fages are stained for life, regardless of what actually transpired.

What i think is wrong, is their accusers get to remain anonymous, avoiding public scrutiny! Both, accuser and accused should be named, or neither.

The accusers are grown men. They have made serious accusations that will affect the careers, lives and reputations of highly regarded people who have done good things for many people over many years. They may or may not have done something wrong here, but at the least, their accusers should stand up in public and face the same scrutiny as Clarkson and Fagan! Not be cloaked in anonymity while their accusations ruin the reputation of two men, who up to now have been highly regarded and respected by all.
.

 

[nup]

So it's been about 24 hours, everyone comfortable with this being enough time to know how to respond to allegations of this nature, or reckon we hit send and end some careers

 

[Mighty Lions]

Whatever the outcome of this inquiry the AFL is now undertaking, Fagan, Clarkson and several others are going to be tried and convicted by media and will be labelled racists for the remainder of their lives. This isn't isolated to just them either. Their families will have to live with this shadow hanging over them as well.....found guilty or not guilty....it wont matter.

I support this investigation by Hawthorn, but I dont support the way it has been reported or the results presented until everyone has been investigated and an overall summary has been done along with a plan moving forward.

One thing is for sure 100%, we need to find a new coach.