NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[beatnik]

I dont expect to get to the bottom of these claims & the allegations will certainly stick.

Kids robbed of their AFL dream & looking to blame others for not making the grade, might have an axe to grind. I've not seen anyone admit they werent good enough.

Its certainly not new that clubs try to lead recruits away from activities/people who might contribute to a player not reaching the players potential.

Justice isnt likely for any of the parties.

That’s a grubby take, Grubbsy

 

[ferball]

Go on, say the line, you know you want to

Its in the public interest to know whether an employer asked/demanded an employee to terminate a pregnancy, to not report it or to report it inaccurately would be worse as a journo.

That's true but using that specific quote is quite inflammatory.

If that line alone had been left out the article would be so much better.

The Egan report recommended mediation as the best policy for reconciliation in terms of the best outcome for the former players and their families didn't it? How do you reckon leaving a line like that in the article will help with mediation? Even if its truye its a poor effort. If iots not true its an indictment on jackson and that's looking more likely after his twitter performance.

It looks to me like Rusty's personal agendas are the most important thing in his story.

 

[the big lebowski]

So it should be four indigenous elders instead?

Oh you probably would prefer it if it were four old white dudes.. they're totally unbiased right..

I don’t think we can converse on this topic constructively

 

[Maddo11]

That's true but using that specific quote is quite inflammatory.

If that line alone had been left out the article would be so much better.

The Egan report recommended mediation as the best policy for reconciliation in terms of the best outcome for the former players and their families didn't it? How do you reckon leaving a line like that in the article will help with mediation? Even if its truye its a poor effort. If iots not true its an indictment on jackson and that's looking more likely after his twitter performance.

It looks to me like Rusty's personal agendas are the most important thing in his story.

If it's a direct quote from the alleged victim, it's fine. It's not flourish, it's not embellishment from Jackson to sway the public, he's directly quoting what Ian said when interviewed.

Clarko had a chance to deny it before the article was published, he didn't respond. If it looks biased or one sided to you as a result, it's not the fault of the writer.

 

[ferball]

Yeah, but… my football team!!

****en oath my footy team. Where are we typing this stuff?

Anyway the ToR for the enquirey are heavily focused on hawthorn's Board and their responsibility for this mess. As it should.

 

[ferball]

If it's a direct quote from the alleged victim, it's fine. It's not flourish, it's not embellishment from Jackson to sway the public, he's directly quoting what Ian said when interviewed.

Clarko had a chance to deny it before the article was published, he didn't respond. If it looks biased or one sided to you as a result, it's not the fault of the writer.

Didn't Jackson send an email to his media manager on a Friday then published on Monday or something similar?

Even if its a direct quote it still doesn't aid any mediation. Maybe Jackson pointed that pout and Ian said "I don't care publish it anyway." That's the only way its reasonable imo. His twitter debacle puts it in a different light tho.

 

[ferball]

It’s time to move on from Jackson. Create a seperate thread to unpack the mean things he said on twitter if you like, but it has nothing to do with the racism inquiry and what the players allegedly experienced.

There was a seperate thread. i wouldn't have even posted in this one oif they hadn't been merged.

 

[the big lebowski]

Imagine if you were that minority and 100 % of the panel you were up against in employment, business, justice, government etc demeaned you and hated you and saw you as a subculture and race.

Yolngu, firstly now that I’m back, I’m reminded that I still owe you a public apology for my misunderstanding the other night. I was wrong and we had an argument talking about different aspects of the same issue, that my misunderstanding made worse.

I don’t know why but I feel like a like you even though I don’t know you. You probably feel differently, especially given the points I’m arguing. And that’s all good.

Your Lionel Rose story has given me much gratification over the last few days. I look forward to telling my dad, who as well as being a pies supporter often tells of his memories of watching Rose fight.

Now, at the risk of getting into trouble again, it’s not hard to imagine. I’ve watched the hurricane, and just mercy among others. Yes, they are just movies but they are also true stories about black people being totally rorted by the legal system. Both innocent at that.

Secondly my grandfather was Jewish, and told me how my great grand parents and aunts and uncles had all of their wealth stripped, their clothes stripped, hearded into cattle cars and shipped off to their murders where they crawled over each other as the gas killed them. So whilst not the same, I’ve spent most of a lifetime reflecting on what it would have been like for them.

And I have no problem empathising with how some/most indigenous people must feel about the legal system. I do think it’s misleading how you use blanket statements to speak for all indigenous people though. Or all white people for that matter. Two of the four panel members are proud indigenous people at the top of the legal game. They must have some sort of love/respect for the law.

Anyway, I’m glad I’m back to converse with you.

 

[ferball]

Because it has no fecking relevance. I could punch someone in a pub, the police don't go and speak to all the people I didn't punch and say 'according to these people, he's not a punching kinda guy'.

Mate that's exactly what they do.

They talk to everyone and gather evidence.

And usually that's eactly what people say too. Well it used to be.

 

[ferball]

which is ignoring the actual racism that appears to have happened because of how it was reported

What "actual racism".

 

[sr36]

That's true but using that specific quote is quite inflammatory.

If that line alone had been left out the article would be so much better.

The Egan report recommended mediation as the best policy for reconciliation in terms of the best outcome for the former players and their families didn't it? How do you reckon leaving a line like that in the article will help with mediation? Even if its truye its a poor effort. If iots not true its an indictment on jackson and that's looking more likely after his twitter performance.

It looks to me like Rusty's personal agendas are the most important thing in his story.

Jackson specialises in telling victims' stories in sport. Racism and paedophilia have been the issues which he's covered most regularly and effectively. It's an important niche that he occupies and occupies very well. There is no suggestion that he's been underhanded or written things that the story tellers didn't want him to tell. If this story is accurate, it's shone the light on something that the AFL may have not wanted any light on and ensured that the Inquiry is going to be relatively independent and on favourable terms for the potential victims. His personal agenda may very well be to expose abuses of power. but that's a pretty bloody noble agenda if you ask me.

 

[ferball]

That's exactly what they do.
You always read the judge saying "good person who's made a mistake" etc

Like what that judge said about those white kids in Alice who kicked that black bloke to death cos he was upset they had driven thru his and other people's camps and pointed a replica firearm at them without them knowing it was a replica. To be fair they all did at least a year in prison.

 

[ferball]

Jackson specialises in telling victims' stories in sport. Racism and paedophilia have been the issues which he's covered most regularly and effectively. It's an important niche that he occupies and occupies very well. There is no suggestion that he's been underhanded or written things that the story tellers didn't want him to tell. If this story is accurate, it's shone the light on something that the AFL may have not wanted any light on and ensured that the Inquiry is going to be relatively independent and on favourable terms for the potential victims. His personal agenda may very well be to expose abuses of power. but that's a pretty bloody noble agenda if you ask me.

Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't. There's always white people involved in aboriginal business who claim the same thing but if their ego wasn't what drove them they'd be better at their jobs and leave less carnage in their wake.

If you gain personal power by exposing other abuses of power then you're walking down a dangerous path. Its not just a "white people do it to black people" thing but it definitely is a "white people do it to black people" thing.

 

[JackOutback]

Mate that's exactly what they do.

They talk to everyone and gather evidence.

And usually that's eactly what people say too. Well it used to be.

Read the follow-ups, what you're describing might hold some sway over your sentence, it won't result in you being found to have not done the thing you are alleged to have done. If Buddy Franklin had a great relationship with Clarko, that might offer some mitigation, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether something was done to someone else.

 

[ferball]

See this is how things happen for Aboriginal people in our country

Stolen Generation- An atrocity quickly changes to we did it for the good of the families, the children and the nation then to did it even happen.
Aboriginal Incarceration- A huge problem turns to well the statistics say .....
Poverty in Communities- Such a shame becomes well they brought in on 'themselves'
Education standards- Kids struggle well 'they' don't even get to school
Racism- Just horrible turns to well 'they' should be more resilient
Current AFL Saga - Aboriginal players tell horror stories turns to victims must talk more, it was a bad article, it should not have been leaked to the media, Egan is bad, the victims are from bad families they must be liars, one side didn't get a chance to talk to and then finally Clarkson and Fagan are heroes.

That's over egging it a little bit.

The ToR from this enquirey focus on the Hawthorn Boards knowledge and role in all this. Which is good because the way this plays out in the media is that its North and Brisbane's problem and issue.

One of the issues with this story is that its an accusation that amounts to ethnic cleansing. If you're encouraging aboriginal people to have abortions based on their aboriginality and wouldn't do the same to white people in the same situation, and even worse put them under duress to "encourage them" its race based eugenics. Do you really think that's what happened here?

 

[ferball]

My money would be on Egan or Kennett himself.

I reckon Kennett.

 

[ferball]

Read the follow-ups, what you're describing might hold some sway over your sentence, it won't result in you being found to have not done the thing you are alleged to have done. If Buddy Franklin had a great relationship with Clarko, that might offer some mitigation, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether something was done to someone else.

It will if it throws enough reasonable doubt at the situation.

I assume when you say this "the police don't go and speak to all the people I didn't punch and say 'according to these people, he's not a punching kinda guy'." they're interviewing witnesses who say the alleged assault didn't happen.

 

[ferball]

Just thinking about this a bit more.
The trip when Clarkson surprised Buddy in Las Vegas would be inappropriate conduct under the definition of this ToR.

If this is the definition I wonder what would be the result of applying it across the whole AFL?

 

[ferball]

I'm famous for my racism hey ferball

The North board are always like there goes Simpkin again with his racism.

The big old racist.

You've got a reputation as one of the "wokest" posters on our board.

 

[ferball]

I hate using that term.

 

[Makeshift Park]

If this is the definition I wonder what would be the result of applying it across the whole AFL?

Just imagine.

I’ve worked in a few industries in my time. Most of them had obsessive types. But never have I experienced a field where the work-life balance pendulum seems as offkilter as elite sport.

(other fields that come to mind are military regiments deployed to theatres of war, professional ballet dancing, and government ministers)

People who are driven to succeed in those kinds of fields are deeply weird people. They have to be able to internally justify acts that the rest of us would consider massive sacrifices. I kind of get it. But at the same time I’m unsure how one starts delineating “inappropriate intrusion in their private lives” when most of us have no lived experience of that environment and what such people consider tolerable in the name of winning. At least up to the point where actual criminal behaviour occurs.

 

[Gralin]

It would be extremely rare for young Aboriginal people to seek out the press. Most would be hiding from it.

I expect Jackson put out the feelers to everyone possibly involved.

I also expect that given the history of what and who he has covered he had one or more people the families trusted vouch for him.

When i said they might have reached out to him I meant more when it looked like the AFL and Hawthorn weren't doing anything the families might have gone back to his initial offer

 

[South of the Yarra]

Yolngu, firstly now that I’m back, I’m reminded that I still owe you a public apology for my misunderstanding the other night. I was wrong and we had an argument talking about different aspects of the same issue, that my misunderstanding made worse.

I don’t know why but I feel like a like you even though I don’t know you. You probably feel differently, especially given the points I’m arguing. And that’s all good.

Your Lionel Rose story has given me much gratification over the last few days. I look forward to telling my dad, who as well as being a pies supporter often tells of his memories of watching Rose fight.

Now, at the risk of getting into trouble again, it’s not hard to imagine. I’ve watched the hurricane, and just mercy among others. Yes, they are just movies but they are also true stories about black people being totally rorted by the legal system. Both innocent at that.

Secondly my grandfather was Jewish, and told me how my great grand parents and aunts and uncles had all of their wealth stripped, their clothes stripped, hearded into cattle cars and shipped off to their murders where they crawled over each other as the gas killed them. So whilst not the same, I’ve spent most of a lifetime reflecting on what it would have been like for them.

And I have no problem empathising with how some/most indigenous people must feel about the legal system. I do think it’s misleading how you use blanket statements to speak for all indigenous people though. Or all white people for that matter. Two of the four panel members are proud indigenous people at the top of the legal game. They must have some sort of love/respect for the law.

Anyway, I’m glad I’m back to converse with you.

No probs at all. Glad you liked the Lionel Rose story and hope it brings a smile to your Dads face. Many people have faced extreme brutality in their life, and I would never judge what they had been through. I have no doubt you have incredible empathy. All I was saying was that you mentioned the coaches were up against 50% of a panel who may hate them. I was simply telling you many Aboriginal people have faced a panel of '100%' bias all their life in many facets. I made it very clear in my early posts that I am not an expert and do not speak on behalf of others. I simply offer my views. I do consider myself an expert in stolen generation and family removal and know enough people and have studied enough Aboriginal subjects as well to offer a wide representation of views.

 

[Gralin]

What "actual racism

Are you seriously asking where the racism comes in with this situation?

Its all over this thread and the media and everywhere.

Trying to separate those players from their families or getting them to abort

The response in the media and public.

The response in here.

Your mate woke Simmo has been pointing out whit institutions and the media attacking Lidia, but then also doing fun stuff like promoting an article from the age that attacked Lidia, go figure.

You cannot say this is just coercive control and not racist.

Thats not how intersectionality actually works. The impact of race on the situation has to be taken into account as well.

Telling a first nations player to do those things is not the same as telling a white player to do it.

Both are reprehensible but one of those players doesn't have the stolen generation and 200+ years of colonisation adding to what that means, looks or feels like

 

[South of the Yarra]

That's over egging it a little bit.

The ToR from this enquirey focus on the Hawthorn Boards knowledge and role in all this. Which is good because the way this plays out in the media is that its North and Brisbane's problem and issue.

One of the issues with this story is that its an accusation that amounts to ethnic cleansing. If you're encouraging aboriginal people to have abortions based on their aboriginality and wouldn't do the same to white people in the same situation, and even worse put them under duress to "encourage them" its race based eugenics. Do you really think that's what happened here?

Sorry if I mistrust but I after what I have seen in life, I do think it is 'POSSIBLE'. Not probable but possible. It is certainly a problem that does not involve Kangas and Lions directly but unfortunately, they have been thrown into the heart of it. I feel for them. Some people involved in this have thrown the victims under the bus and I was simply highlighting how things historically have been turned around.