NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[owen87]

CONTINUED IN PART 3

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

---

Pretty big allegations coming out, implicating some big names.

Family separations and pregnancy termination: Hawthorn racism review reveals shock allegations against former coaches

An external review commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club will reveal allegations that key figures at the AFL club demanded the separation of young First Nations players from their partners, and pressured one couple to terminate a pregnancy for the sake of the player's career.

The review document, handed to Hawthorn's senior management two weeks ago and now with the AFL integrity unit, will allege that club staff involved include four-time premiership coach Alastair Clarkson and former assistant Chris Fagan, now the coach of the Brisbane Lions.

"Clarkson just leaned over me and demanded that I needed to get rid of my unborn child and my partner. I was then manipulated and convinced to remove my SIM card from my phone, so there was no further contact between my family and me. They told me I’d be living with one of the other coaches from that night onwards.

It goes on. It gets worse.

EDIT:

Mclachlan Press Conference Video:

'Incredibly serious': AFL to probe Hawks' treatment of Indigenous players

The AFL launch an independent investigation into 'extremely serious' allegations of Hawthorn's treatment of Indigenous players, as Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan step back from coaching roles

www.afl.com.au

Fagan to take a Leave of Absence:

Club Statement - Chris Fagan

The official AFL website of the Brisbane Lions Football Club

www.lions.com.au

Clarkson start to be delayed pending the outcome of the investigation:

Club Statement

The North Melbourne Football Club is aware of serious historical allegations made against individuals who worked at the Hawthorn Football Club, including incoming North Melbourne coach Alastair Clarkson

www.nmfc.com.au

Full statement from Clarkson:

The health, care and welfare of our players, staff and their families were always my highest priorities during my time at Hawthorn Football Club.

I was therefore shocked by the extremely serious allegations reported in the media earlier today. I was not interviewed by the authors of the report commissioned by the Club, and nor have I been provided with a copy of the report.

I was not afforded any due process and I refute any allegation of wrongdoing or misconduct and look forward to the opportunity to be heard as part of the AFL external investigation.

I have today contacted the President of North Melbourne Football Club and we have mutually agreed that I will step back from my responsibilities at the Club so I can fully cooperate in the investigation.

As the matters are now subject to an investigation, I will not make any further comment at this stage.

Hawthorn Club Statement, Wednesday 21 September:

Club statement

Earlier this year the Hawthorn Football Club engaged external First Nations consultants to liaise with current and former First Nations players and staff to learn more about their experience at the club.

This important work has raised disturbing historical allegations that require further investigation. Upon learning of these allegations, the club immediately engaged AFL Integrity as is appropriate.

The club will continue to provide support to those who have participated in this process, and their wellbeing remains our priority.

While the process indicated the current environment at the club is culturally safe, it also recommended that some of the club’s current First Nations training and development programs should continue to be strengthened.

The club places the best interests and welfare of our players and staff as our number one priority.

Given the matters raised are confidential, the club will not provide any further comment at this time.

ABC Statement on contacting relevant parties before their article was published - Note ABC article and Hawthorn report are separate things.



Continuing on from Part One found here

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Chief]

I assume good behaviour from Clarkson.

I think a lot of people thought he was a bit of a loose cannon at times but nothing on this scale.

 

[perplexed]

It is funny how nobody ever engages with the Yoo-Rook Commission stuff.

Noting it was Jack Latimore who wrote this, oh that he'd got the Egan report first. Though I reckon Egan didn't go to him because he knew Latimore wouldn't just lap it all up.

Hawthorn players urged to speak to Yoorrook truth and justice commission

The independence of the AFL racism probe into Hawthorn has come under question as the royal commission-style Yoorrook inquiry invites sports people to tell their stories.

www.theage.com.au

It's not surprising that the players are reluctant to take part in the AFL process but they need to have their allegations tested somewhere. Yoorrook seems like the logical place but I'm not sure Egan can refer the matter to them, I think the players may have to. If they are reluctant to do this or take part in the AFL process, I'm not sure how this can credibly move forward unless someone sues someone.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Speaking of power imbalances, I'm increasingly uncomfortable with having a Super Moderator coming in and out of the thread firing one line pot shots like the above at me, the kind that would get me in trouble if the situation were reversed.

BigFooty's biggest melt ever continues!!

FFS, it's just getting awkward now.

 

[4cunningTonneTruck]

I didn’t comment on that. I just stated a fact that indigenous prisoners are no more likely to die in custody than non indigenous prisoners. Infact stats unequivocally show they are less likely to die in custody.

Just stating a fact. Sorry if that angers you.

I still can't believe you are pushing this. Of course it angers people! What you are doing is so disgusting and I don't know how it hasn't been removed considering the nature of this thread. You are quoting a very specific statistic that you are pushing to minimise the very real institutional racism and atrocities committed by the justice system towards Indigenous people.

From the very same report you quote your statistic from, the report goes on to show how that statistic doesn't paint the whole picture.
"Indigenous people who died in custody were three times more likely to not receive all required medical care. For Indigenous women, the result was even worse – less than half received all required medical care prior to death" "Coroners were also twice as likely to find that police, prisons or hospitals failed to follow all of their own procedures in cases involving an Indigenous death in custody than a non-Indigenous death in custody."

(There are also reports that show the opposite of your statistic, such as the one done by the Australian Human Rights Commission)

Honestly, putrid behaviour.

 

[Engimal v3]

I think a lot of people thought he was a bit of a loose cannon at times but nothing on this scale.

I think it allows some unconscious bias towards Clarkson's version of events though. It's hard to imagine anyone telling someone to abort their kid.

 

[the big lebowski]

I still can't believe you are pushing this. Of course it angers people! What you are doing is so disgusting and I don't know how it hasn't been removed considering the nature of this thread. You are quoting a very specific statistic that you are pushing to minimise the very real institutional racism and atrocities committed by the justice system towards Indigenous people.

From the very same report you quote your statistic from, the report goes on to show how that statistic doesn't paint the whole picture.
"Indigenous people who died in custody were three times more likely to not receive all required medical care. For Indigenous women, the result was even worse – less than half received all required medical care prior to death" "Coroners were also twice as likely to find that police, prisons or hospitals failed to follow all of their own procedures in cases involving an Indigenous death in custody than a non-Indigenous death in custody."

(There are also reports that show the opposite of your statistic, such as the one done by the Australian Human Rights Commission)

Honestly, putrid behaviour.

That report I quoted was just for expediency.

2 years ago I looked at all deaths in custody in Australia from the royal commission until 2018.

It showed that indigenous deaths in custody occur at a rate slightly lower than their incarceration rate. Non indigenous was slightly higher than their incarceration rate.

Again I’m sorry if you find real world data discriminating.

The notion that it should be banned from being able to be discussed is extremely concerning however.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

You really don’t get it, no matter how much it’s explained to you. They knew they were part of an ongoing investigation when they went to the media. This has accelerated the process and made it very public. People have been suggesting, perhaps logically, that they went to the AFL to force their hand. Now people are claiming they’re ”sick” of it. Or worried it’s being rushed, which I don’t buy for a second.

As another poster put it, this is head hurting stuff. They have their chance to substantiate their claims to a panel that appears culturally sensitive and has been given independence from the AFL. They are being encouraged to take it.

I took you off ignore and 30 seconds later I am already regretting it. I feel dumber every time I read anything you write. Back to ignore.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I think it allows some unconscious bias towards Clarkson's version of events though. It's hard to imagine anyone telling someone to abort their kid.

It’s shocking, isn’t it?

It was hard to believe that priests of the Catholic Church were raping little boys, covering it up and sending the offending priests into new communities where they would rape more little boys.

If it’s hard to believe, we should just assume it’s not true, shouldn’t we.

 

[sr36]

It's not surprising that the players are reluctant to take part in the AFL process but they need to have their allegations tested somewhere. Yoorrook seems like the logical place but I'm not sure Egan can refer the matter to them, I think the players may have to. If they are reluctant to do this or take part in the AFL process, I'm not sure how this can credibly move forward unless someone sues someone.

The players are suggesting they want it taken further somewhere. One of the issues is that it's in the AFL interests to come to some form of resolution ASAP, but the families are likely to want a slower timeframe to investigate options and make the decision of where and how that somewhere further occurs.

 

[Shadow89]

I appear to take these allegations far more seriously that those who are happy to accept a single article by a journalist who has gone on to defame an AFL club President.

I've read a lot of what you've posted recently, and this seems to be your big problem that you can't seem to recognize: you're conflating one event with another - when the two are completely separate from one another.

You cannot say that just because he 'defamed a club president' via stupid comments on Twitter...that this all of a sudden means that his past journalistic prowess and his reporting and article are suddenly invalidated due to the aforementioned - it doesn't work that way.

I could have been the one to say for example, break the story on Trump lying about his taxes and embezzling money...I could then also be someone who lashes out at one of his sons on Twitter because I think they're involved in it - and then have it put it to me that I was off base and offer a retraction. The former story I broke isn't any less valid, I just let my emotions get in the way when I wasn't being vetted by editors/my network wasn't signing off on it.

That's the part you constantly gloss over here - he's broken many stories in the past and they've been signed off on by higher ups at the ABC- just like this one. The ABC editorial staff and higher ups had to sign off on this story as well, knowing the impact it would have and the possibility for legal implications in the future.

When it comes to his comments on Twitter, there was no oversight, no submission, no advice- just personal bias and uninformed commentary. This does not mean that he had any bias prior to these comments, as when he wrote the story, he probably had no feelings one way or another towards the NMFC or its colleagues. Now that he's written the story and he knows the events he's been told, his emotional bias kicks in, when he hears commentary that seems to support the accused rather than the accuser, and so he then states his uninformed opinion.

Again, one event has nothing to do with the other. You cannot conflate them as you continually seem to be doing, in order to cast doubt on his original story, and malign his character. When you do, you're doing the exact same thing he did on Twitter - given your own implicit bias against him/towards Dr Hood and the NMFC.

 

[gouki88]

It’s shocking, isn’t it?

It was hard to believe that priests of the Catholic Church were raping little boys, covering it up and sending the offending priests into new communities where they would rape more little boys.

If it’s hard to believe, we should just assume it’s not true, shouldn’t we.

I can't get over that whole line of argument. Thousands of years of apparently good people doing the most abhorrent things, and yet every time it's inconceivable

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

They made it clear that they don't want to participate into an inquiry into the matter, but not an AFL one. The AFL then announced an inquiry into the matter, with AFL decided terms and timeline. Their main sticking point seems to be the timeline. Why are they obliged to adhere to an AFL imposed timeline to hear the matter?

100% this. The arbitrary timeline clearly was designed to meet the AFL’s purpose.

It therefore removed all trust from the players.

It would also remove their trust in the panel doing the review. If they were willing to accept the arbitrary timeline then clearly they have already kowtowed to the AFL before the review even commenced. What else may they kowtow to?

 

[Chief]

I think it allows some unconscious bias towards Clarkson's version of events though. It's hard to imagine anyone telling someone to abort their kid.

Yes I think it is outside the realms of what people imagine managing or coaching a football team involves.

 

[Intothewind]

What I have learnt from both sides on this thread is that the truth can be discovered through story telling and fact finding. Both have their merits but are different in that story telling can reveal different versions of the same event, whereas fact finding tries to find a single version of an event. The reason we need both, is that facts sometimes dont tell the whole story, or faithfully communicate the human effect of events. Story tellling can lead to instututional and process change, wheras fact finding leads more towards personal accountabilty, from which process and in stitutional change may follow (or not).

I'm just learnning this now, but when I first read Rusty's article I assumed it was fact finding and so I read it in that manner. Now its been explained as story tellingI feel like Rusty should have made that a bit clearer at the time.

 

[sr36]

I still can't believe you are pushing this. Of course it angers people! What you are doing is so disgusting and I don't know how it hasn't been removed considering the nature of this thread. You are quoting a very specific statistic that you are pushing to minimise the very real institutional racism and atrocities committed by the justice system towards Indigenous people.

From the very same report you quote your statistic from, the report goes on to show how that statistic doesn't paint the whole picture.
"Indigenous people who died in custody were three times more likely to not receive all required medical care. For Indigenous women, the result was even worse – less than half received all required medical care prior to death" "Coroners were also twice as likely to find that police, prisons or hospitals failed to follow all of their own procedures in cases involving an Indigenous death in custody than a non-Indigenous death in custody."

(There are also reports that show the opposite of your statistic, such as the one done by the Australian Human Rights Commission)

Honestly, putrid behaviour.

Just to add, a far greater percentage of white prisoners in comparison to indigenous prisoners enter incarceration with lifelong histories of suicide ideation and histories of self harm - it's an extremely high percentage. Since self harm is the biggest cause of deaths in custody you'd expect higher rates of deaths amongst white prisoners as they are more pre-disposed to self harm.

 

[Engimal v3]

It’s shocking, isn’t it?

It was hard to believe that priests of the Catholic Church were raping little boys, covering it up and sending the offending priests into new communities where they would rape more little boys.

If it’s hard to believe, we should just assume it’s not true, shouldn’t we.

Why do you think we should do this?

 

[Chief]

Why do you think we should do this?

Learn to recognise sarcasm.

 

[Engimal v3]

Learn to recognise sarcasm.

Okay

 

[Bankstown]

I think it allows some unconscious bias towards Clarkson's version of events though. It's hard to imagine anyone telling someone to abort their kid.

Think the problem with Clarkson is he is so footy based Footy is number 1 , he probably would offer the same advise based on the kids situation not colour to save a career. Unlike Matt Rendall disgraceful "one white parent comment " which people have no idea how much it affected recruitment guidelines and KPIs, how that guy is allowed to continue to be on Trade Radio or comment on anything AFL is beyond me

 

[ferball]

I think a lot of people thought he was a bit of a loose cannon at times but nothing on this scale.

Honestly it doesn't seem to fit. I know I'm biased and have an interest in him being exonerated but even if he went to Essendon ... I'd have had a go at them I spose but really would have struggled to reconcile both these stories. Especially given the emphatic denials.

Same with Fagan.

And Brisbane have welcomed him back. Their indigenous support programs are good aren't they, especially compared to Hawthorn? This probably isn't as clear cut as it seems to some people.

But its a nice change to see indigenous people's stories being believed so readily. Once upon a time no one would have listened or given a s**t. I hope that if things turn out to be not as extreme as claimed that people keep that up.

 

[ferball]

look I'm not saying it hasn't ever helped

but at the end of the day civil rights movements are not sports leagues, they can be a part of the picture, they can be a way you can make some change but their primary purpose isn't making change, its winning, acceptance is based on being valuable to the cause

don't get me wrong there have been very many powerful social moments in sport for decades, but that has almost 100% been down to the individuals against the wishes of the competition at the time

Money is very good at adapting to what sells, sport is no different at the highest levels and if someone shows them that acceptance sells they will jump on board.

I don't see leagues as change motivators, its generally individual players and as we've seen time and time again and are seeing in this thread they pay a massive price for that, often without support at the time from the league

True. Its rare that anything is 100% one way or the other with stuff like this, or anything... I think one of the things that VFL and the AFL footy provided was visibility and that was important in the 80s. I couldn't really comment on other state leagues cos I don't really know what they were like. Lots of change happened in terms of indigenous relations in Australia during that time. And footy contributed. But it wouldn't have had the same effect if society wasn't changing at the same time.

There is definitely a feedback loop tho and it made things better imo.

But the institution of the AFL - I agree its not what drives change. Its a parasite living off people's passion for a game. Its that game and people's passion for it that provided the visibility and the opportunity to see aboriginal people as people doing what other people loved really well.

Money is very good at adapting to what sells, sport is no different at the highest levels and if someone shows them that acceptance sells they will jump on board.

yeah I agree and on this point alone - alot of corporate change and acceptance of what some people stupidly call "wokeness" is simply driven by money and would disappear in a minute if most people started behaving like bigoted jerks again.

 

[perplexed]

The players are suggesting they want it taken further somewhere. One of the issues is that it's in the AFL interests to come to some form of resolution ASAP, but the families are likely to want a slower timeframe to investigate options and make the decision of where and how that somewhere further occurs.

A bit late to be thinking about taking things further, speaking to Jackson was never going to be the end of it. They should have taken their grievances to Yoorrook or similar first rather than speaking to Jackson. By going to the press and defaming people they have lost control of the process. Jackson would have been aware of this and should have suggested they get legal advice before talking to him. Of course then he wouldn't have got his story.

 

[Maddo11]

^ maybe they're aware of the fact that it's not defamation if it's true..