Hawthorn vs Geelong MCG- Saturday July 20th 2019 - Edited Page 18 current discussion

[KermitJagger]

Ha, what defenders do you have as good as Tom Stewart? James Sicily is ok, but he hasn't missed any games except through suspension has he? Comparing a 30 year old spud who has done a hamstring with an AA defender is a false equivalency! Even comparing one of your midfielders to Selwood is bullshit.......

Surely this sort of posting belongs on the bay and not the main board?

 

[Luv_our_club]

The personnel available for both teams this week says Geelong should win comfortably, but it never works that way with us & the hawks....Last year in Round 21 was no different, we were heavily favoured & I didn’t like it, same as this week. It will be a margin of 18 points or less. Bookmark it.

Stratton, Mitchell, Cousins, Shiels, Burgoyne, Frawley, and Jaeger could all be missing.

Hoping Stratton, Jaeger and Cousins can make it by Monday.

A lot of other sore boys from Sundays game, such as Nash and Smith. And Howe did not look fully prepared for AFL level on his return.

I hate to admit it, but i would not be devastated with an 18 point loss. But beware our wingers at the MCG, and our star forwards.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Ha, what defenders do you have as good as Tom Stewart? James Sicily is ok, but he hasn't missed any games except through suspension has he? Comparing a 30 year old spud who has done a hamstring with an AA defender is a false equivalency! Even comparing one of your midfielders to Selwood is bullshit.......

Sicily is OK? Now I know you don't watch hawks games. What a silly Ill-informed bunch of comments. Your defense looked fantastic last week 3 guys almost kicked the Giants whole score up there. It's the midfield were you will win the game and only because we're undermanned.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

The Hawks are going in with basically a fully fit side right?

I wish a plethora of Hawk posters could confirm if they have some injuries or not.

 

[The Bandwagon]

Please don’t say Lachie Henderson. He’s not even in the best 22. Cockatoo is the only one that comes to mind. Players like S.Selwood and C.Guthrie are depth players at best and make the Geelong side worse and Zac Smith is just terrible.

Looking forward to seeing McEvoy obliterating Stanley again and Geelong’s tall key defenders chasing the Hawks small forwards and being made to look slow.

If you're that confident why are you using preemptive excuses? You're putting on a brave face.

Geelong have more injuries than Hawthorn.

 

[The Bandwagon]

Stratton, Mitchell, Cousins, Shiels, Burgoyne, Frawley, and Jaeger could all be missing.

Hoping Stratton, Jaeger and Cousins can make it by Monday.

A lot of other sore boys from Sundays game, such as Nash and Smith. And Howe did not look fully prepared for AFL level on his return.

I hate to admit it, but i would not be devastated with an 18 point loss. But beware our wingers at the MCG, and our star forwards.

From that list you'll have Mitchell, Burgoyne, Shiels and Frawley missing. Mitchell is the only gun on that list and he's out for the year. Frawley can hold the big key forwards so I'll put him on the list of important out along with Mitchell.

Shiels is a grub, Burgoyne is finished and has been for a while.

Two key players out and your supporters are making a song and dance ... it's called fear. Whether Hawthorn supporters (and Richmond for that matter) like it or not you don't take losing too well and look to lay the blame elsewhere rather than your own club. It's always someone or something elses fault.

That's from two supporters bases whose with the biggest bandwagons this game has ever seen. Jump on board when a teams succeeding and expect it to keep happening. When it doesn't the excuses begin.

The reality is you have about 5 or 6 genuine guns on your list surrounded by B, C and D grade contributors. When those guns are well held or having an off day the team struggles. You're also very well coached which helps.

Nothing to do with injuries, umpires or any other fantasy made up in your feeble minds to make yourselves feel better.

 

[Luv_our_club]

From that list you'll have Mitchell, Burgoyne, Shiels and Frawley missing. Mitchell is the only gun on that list and he's out for the year. Frawley can hold the big key forwards so I'll put him on the list of important out along with Mitchell.

Shiels is a grub, Burgoyne is finished and has been for a while.

Two key players out and your supporters are making a song and dance ... it's called fear. Whether Hawthorn supporters (and Richmond for that matter) like it or not you don't take losing too well and look to lay the blame elsewhere rather than your own club. It's always someone or something elses fault.

That's from two supporters bases whose with the biggest bandwagons this game has ever seen. Jump on board when a teams succeeding and expect it to keep happening. When it doesn't the excuses begin.

The reality is you have about 5 or 6 genuine guns on your list surrounded by B, C and D grade contributors. When those guns are well held or having an off day the team struggles. You're also very well coached which helps.

Nothing to do with injuries, umpires or any other fantasy made up in your feeble minds to make yourselves feel better.

Man shouts at passing cloud.

 

[Shadow89]

Interestingly enough, after having a closer look, you have 6 players who played last week that have less than 30 games experience. We also have 6. Your debutants this year have been Scully, Wingard and Scrimshaw. They have over 300 collective games between them. Our debutants have been Miers, Constable, Atkins and Clark. They have 16 collective games between them.

It's odd to me that you guys keep citing injuries to your best 22, given that over the past 2 years we've blooded 12 new players as the result of a pretty bad injury list in the first half of last season. Admittedly, Mitchell, Stratton and Frawley out are huge outs, but the collective games experience from your players is easily above ours.

To me, these players are the ones missing from your best 22:

- Mitchell
- Shiels
- Burgoyne
- Frawley
- Stratton
- Birchall (but he has had recurrent issues, so I don't think he's as much of a consideration)

(Expecting JOM and Smith to get up, so not included)


If we took the equivalent of the above out of our team, it would look like this:

- Dangerfield
- Menegola
- Ablett
- Taylor
- Stewart

We would replace the above with:

- C. Guthrie
- S. Selwood
- Narkle
- Henderson (when fit)
- Tuohy (when fit)

***********************

Although only Tuohy is at the level of the player he would replace, it's still not as horrible a loss. No-one can replace Danger, and certainly not Cam Guthrie, but he'd be a handy inclusion for a few weeks if needed.

The key difference between our teams I would say, is not the injuries, but the lack of development of talented youngsters. Worpel will be a future B+F for your club, Cousins and Hardwick look good and Scrimshaw, Morrison, Brand and Miles all show promise, but outside of that, it's all the older blokes carrying the team.

It will always be a good game between our two teams, and despite our rivalry, there's always a lot of begrudging respect between respective fans and clubs. I do think, however, that it's not your injuries that are the biggest issue this year, but your lack of depth to cover them when they occur, due to a lack of focus on the draft in the past 5 years (admittedly we were the same, but we cleaned it up in 2016 after our 9th placed finish in 2015)

 

[Gavin Excell]

The personnel available for both teams this week says Geelong should win comfortably, but it never works that way with us & the hawks....Last year in Round 21 was no different, we were heavily favoured & I didn’t like it, same as this week. It will be a margin of 18 points or less. Bookmark it.

Generally close the only real outlier being that weird 88 point game from early 2017

 

[gingernuts]

This a typical game that the cats could find difficult. I am telling everyone be wary Alistair Clarkson was raised on foxes milk . He is a cunning as and will spring a surprise it is in his DNA.

 

[Scotland]

Geelong have more injuries than Hawthorn.

Geelong are missing Henderson and Tuohy. I'd pick Tuohy easily and Henderson is probably an upgrade on Taylor at the moment but Stewart, Kolodjashnij, Blicavs is still a pretty solid core of defenders.

Bews, Cockatoo, Cunico, Fogarty, Scott Selwood is a list of fringe players. If they are fit then not all play and arguably Constable or Clark or Myers don't get a chance.

Hawthorn are missing Mitchell, Frawley, Shiels, Burgoyne, Birchall and potentially O'Meara. I don't care about Cousins or Minchington or Nash, fringe players.

Hawthorn's outs are much more severe, and the midfield and key defensive posts are their biggest weaknesses anyway. Their forward line is their biggest area of strength and is mostly intact.

The unfortunate truth for Hawks fans (which they will probably gloss over) is that Frawley, Burgoyne, Birchall aren't actually that good any more and are unlikely to return and have a heroic impact. Mitchell and O'Meara both being out last week was a kick in the nutsack for them. Not having Shiels against a team where you would like to tag at least one of the midfielders is a kick in the gooch to go with it.

 

[hk89]

Generally close the only real outlier being that weird 88 point game from early 2017

I'm expecting a similar margin this time around. Our midfield just isn't coping without Mitchell. Despite JOM having a good start to the year, and Worpel and Cousins doing ok given their experience levels, we are yet to win clearances , despite massive dominance in hitouts in several of our games. We've been able to partly mitigate that, probably via a combination of s**t opposition, and Sicily's interception (equal second in the competition for intercepts), but without Frawley and possibly Stratton, a combination of losing a bunch of centre clearances, and not enough coverage in the backline - this is going to get very ugly for us IMO. 6-6-6 will intensify the damage too.

As for tools saying players like Shiels are not a big out because he isn't that good. Your third best mid is always a big out when your best mid (and also second best mid last Sunday) are out. Similar to Burgoyne, our goto player when we need extra firepower at a centre clearance. These might not be massive outs in a fully stacked midfield, but in ours , they are huge.

In any case, going to the game, so hope we can keep it close, but expecting otherwise.

 

[My Tilly]

Henderson is probably an upgrade on Taylor at the moment

I don't think so.
Henderson is pretty bad now.
He will struggle to even get back in the side and hold his spot. At least Taylor is playing accountable footy despite this being his last season.
Henderson is on big money so maybe the club can package him up in some trade next year because at this rate, his AFL career is almost finished.

 

[Skeppersap]

Surely this sort of posting belongs on the bay and not the main board?

Why? Because your one eye disagrees with it?

The equivalent of Tom Stewart for Hawthorn is Sicily, not Frawley. The equivalent of Frawley would be Harry Taylor, although I would be surprised if you could find a neutral supporter who would take Frawley over Taylor, either now or over the stretch.

Who do Hawthorn have who matches the impact and leadership of Selwood? You used to have Hodge, who was similar... Who do you have now?

So, having said all that, what was wrong with my post? I think it is just that you don't like reading the truth...

 

[Scotland]

Taylor is slow.

Fine against a fellow lumbering veteran like Roughead this week but a liability against Jeremy Cameron.

 

[The Bandwagon]

Geelong are missing Henderson and Tuohy. I'd pick Tuohy easily and Henderson is probably an upgrade on Taylor at the moment but Stewart, Kolodjashnij, Blicavs is still a pretty solid core of defenders.

Bews, Cockatoo, Cunico, Fogarty, Scott Selwood is a list of fringe players. If they are fit then not all play and arguably Constable or Clark or Myers don't get a chance.

Hawthorn are missing Mitchell, Frawley, Shiels, Burgoyne, Birchall and potentially O'Meara. I don't care about Cousins or Minchington or Nash, fringe players.

Hawthorn's outs are much more severe, and the midfield and key defensive posts are their biggest weaknesses anyway. Their forward line is their biggest area of strength and is mostly intact.

The unfortunate truth for Hawks fans (which they will probably gloss over) is that Frawley, Burgoyne, Birchall aren't actually that good any more and are unlikely to return and have a heroic impact. Mitchell and O'Meara both being out last week was a kick in the nutsack for them. Not having Shiels against a team where you would like to tag at least one of the midfielders is a kick in the gooch to go with it.

Geelong's biggest area of weakness at the moment is their lack of small defenders. I read somewhere that Bews conceded the least goals of all shutdown small defenders last year and does that job week in week out. He hasn't been that big a loss this year because O'Connor has been playing that role well.

So in effect Hawthorn will be missing Mitchell - who you can't really include because he's out all year, Frawley (who does a reasonable job on Hawkins and Shiels. Burgoyne hasn't had much impact now for a while.

Geelong are without Tuohy, Henderson, Cockatoo (he's an upgrade on Atkins) and Bews (who is still a better defender than O'Connor).

I'll stand by my call regardless of how close it is.

Point is Hawthorn supporters are crying foul on the injury front when Geelong have their fair share as well. If not worse.

 

[WWSD]

Geelong's biggest area of weakness at the moment is their lack of small defenders. I read somewhere that Bews conceded the least goals of all shutdown small defenders last year and does that job week in week out. He hasn't been that big a loss this year because O'Connor has been playing that role well.

So in effect Hawthorn will be missing Mitchell - who you can't really include because he's out all year, Frawley (who does a reasonable job on Hawkins and Shiels. Burgoyne hasn't had much impact now for a while.

Geelong are without Tuohy, Henderson, Cockatoo (he's an upgrade on Atkins) and Bews (who is still a better defender than O'Connor).

I'll stand by my call regardless of how close it is.

Point is Hawthorn supporters are crying foul on the injury front when Geelong have their fair share as well. If not worse.

Mitchell isn’t out for the year. He will return after the bye round.

 

[Leeda]

My voice will be listening and my heart will be pounding and my legs will be standing strong...

hows that ...

 

[hk89]

Geelong's biggest area of weakness at the moment is their lack of small defenders. I read somewhere that Bews conceded the least goals of all shutdown small defenders last year and does that job week in week out. He hasn't been that big a loss this year because O'Connor has been playing that role well.

So in effect Hawthorn will be missing Mitchell - who you can't really include because he's out all year, Frawley (who does a reasonable job on Hawkins and Shiels. Burgoyne hasn't had much impact now for a while.

Geelong are without Tuohy, Henderson, Cockatoo (he's an upgrade on Atkins) and Bews (who is still a better defender than O'Connor).

I'll stand by my call regardless of how close it is.

Point is Hawthorn supporters are crying foul on the injury front when Geelong have their fair share as well. If not worse.

Tuohy is currently listed as a test. If you want to include players marked down as 'Test', Geelong has 7 players on their injury list, and Hawthorn has 13. Ours includes the reigning Brownlow medalist, you're including a guy who has never played more than 11 games in a season in your 4 key outs, and another guy who might actually play. You're happy to include Cockatoo in your outs, who has played 2 games in 18 months, but you're ignoring Birchall. If you want to include Tuohy, then you also need to include all our players on test, which includes JOM, Stratton, Smith, and Cousins. If none of them get up, we'll be missing 4 of our first 5 starting midfield choices (JOM, Mitchell, Shiels, Cousins), and our best pinch hitting mid (Burgoyne). If you're going to troll, at least do a decent job of it.

 

[The Bandwagon]

Tuohy is currently listed as a test. If you want to include players marked down as 'Test', Geelong has 7 players on their injury list, and Hawthorn has 13. Ours includes the reigning Brownlow medalist, you're including a guy who has never played more than 11 games in a season in your 4 key outs, and another guy who might actually play. You're happy to include Cockatoo in your outs, who has played 2 games in 18 months, but you're ignoring Birchall. If you want to include Tuohy, then you also need to include all our players on test, which includes JOM, Stratton, Smith, and Cousins. If none of them get up, we'll be missing 4 of our first 5 starting midfield choices (JOM, Mitchell, Shiels, Cousins), and our best pinch hitting mid (Burgoyne). If you're going to troll, at least do a decent job of it.

I'm just stating facts. You're struggling because of your lack of depth. Every club has injuries, some have better depth to cover them. Whether Tuohy is a test or not is inconsequential. He's been out all year. One of our better ball users too.

And I've included Cockatoo because he's an upgrade on Atkins. He brings intent and effort and a stack of class. Birchall is finished as a player and it's not an area of need for Hawthorn anyway.

 

[hk89]

The equivalent of Tom Stewart for Hawthorn is Sicily, not Frawley.

If that is the case Tom Stewart is a s**t imitation of what Sicily gives Hawthorn. Sicily is our interceptor and provides a lot of drive out of defence. Sicily is equal second in the comp for total intercepts this season, Stewart is 66th. Where they are similar is Stewart provides drive out of defence, and is almost as prolific as Sicily in this area (they are 1 and 2 in the comp for total rebounds right now). Basically Sicily is a double threat in the areas we use him, so I'd take Sicily over Stewart.

The equivalent of Frawley would be Harry Taylor, although I would be surprised if you could find a neutral supporter who would take Frawley over Taylor, either now or over the stretch.

I'd largely agree with that, but he's our only experienced stopper of the bigger guys, and has done a very good job over his career at that. Taylor has too , and is more versatile so yes, I'd take Taylor, but in the absence of a Taylor, Frawley is super important to our structures, so one of the first picked when fit.

Who do Hawthorn have who matches the impact and leadership of Selwood? You used to have Hodge, who was similar... Who do you have now?

I agree, we have nobody to match the petulance of Selwood during a loss, a guy who has to have handshakes after a loss dragged out of him, like wisdom teeth in a dentist's chair. But seriously, yes we lack a player who has both the experience and leadership qualities to match the likes of Hodge. We have a few that are closer to Hodge than Stratton is, but none of them have been at the club very long (JOM, Mitchell, Hardwick come to mind).

So, having said all that, what was wrong with my post? I think it is just that you don't like reading the truth...

You said Sicily was just "Ok". He's currently arguably the best intercepting rebounder in the comp.

 

[Leeda]

Scotty has a lesson to learn... it aint dangerous.. it aint chop full of reason...

Selwood.. Gaz and that other dude... what i give is nothing...

 

[WWSD]

If you're that confident why are you using preemptive excuses? You're putting on a brave face.

Geelong have more injuries than Hawthorn.

I’m confident Hawthorn will win. They’ll go in as the heavy underdogs and the media will pump the tyres up of Geelong’s big 3.

Now count how many times Rhys Stanley allows McEvoy and Ceglar to take marks around the ground and kick goals.

 

[Leeda]

My faves for now... Sicily, Worpel, Smith, Bruest, J.om... Roughie... Poppie... and just counting out on paper
just who I have missed and who I didn't mean to miss... going to load up in a few days who and what I miss...

 

[hk89]

I'm just stating facts. You're struggling because of your lack of depth. Every club has injuries, some have better depth to cover them.

I don't disagree with the depth issue. I disagree with you saying your injury situation is the same "if not worse" than ours. Hawthorn are currently a few years behind Geelong's cycle at the moment. You had your last flag appearance in 2011, and have been moving on your premiership stars for the last 7 years, we are only 4 years into that process so we've not had has much opportunity (or pressure) to cycle kids through the senior level. We've still got some talent in the VFL (flag last year, and smashed the 2018 runners up in round 1 this year), but they are way too raw and inexperienced to be good replacements, especially when we are carry more inexperience in our best 22 than we have for a few years (not saying we are packed full of kids, you guys definitely have more in the best 22 right now).

Whether Tuohy is a test or not is inconsequential. He's been out all year. One of our better ball users too.

We are talking about this coming monday, not the year though, if you want to list him as an injury because he might not get up for selection, then there is a bunch of players you need to add to your Hawthorn potential outs list.

And I've included Cockatoo because he's an upgrade on Atkins. He brings intent and effort and a stack of class. Birchall is finished as a player and it's not an area of need for Hawthorn anyway.

Birchall is still hopeful to play again this year. Last time he played he was playing good footy, so it is hard to know if he's finished or not. Birchall in provides us with flexibility on where we play Impey and Burgoyne when he returns. Cockatoo provides you a small forward who has never kicked more than 11 goals in a season (admittedly because he's never played more than that many games).