NO TROLLS Homophobia in the AFL - 4 Corners

[edgie]

Yeh, i dont really get what youre saying here? Out a player cause forcing progress is best? Like the point is are the AFL endeavoring to support their players and educate at grass roots all the way through to allow players to be who they are?

A player outing themselves can force progress. I am not saying it's best though. Might be quicker but. Will almost certainly be quicker, really. I think over the top hetero behaviour amongst young men has only gotten worse lately, thanks to social media.

 

[phantom13]

A player outing themselves can force progress. I am not saying it's best though. Might be quicker but. Will almost certainly be quicker, really. I think over the top hetero behaviour amongst young men has only gotten worse lately, thanks to social media.

Right, well i think we probably need a balance between your forced (likely traumatic) progress and the current almost stagnagt progress.

Education, best practice, AFL led initiatives is probably somewhere in between.

Again, this isnt about shit canning the AFL holistically, to me, its asking a pretty reasonable question of them, are you doing enough given this pretty gaping hole youve got in representation.

 

[Cmarsh]

I would have thought that homophobia amongst clubs and players would have been a bigger issue amongst NRL clubs than AFL clubs.

It was only last year the seven Manly sea eagles players made themselves unavailable for selection to protest they were not consulted that their club wanted to wear a rainbow jersey.

Sure there was Ian Roberts, but that was at a time when there wasnt copious amounts of Polynesian players of whom a significant number are from conservative Christian backgrounds.

 

[Gralin]

hey edgie this isnt the thread to have shots at the crows over a racism issue, stop it

 

[Bunk Moreland]

didn't someone say something on the field once and beat the living snot out of him ?

I think he regularly beat the living snot out of people for unrelated reasons, and hence nobody dared say anything to him.

 

[Reximilian]

Cycling and F1 arent overseen by an Australian administrator so they dont really fall under the remit of the ABC nor do they concern the Australian public as much.

No doubt there has been progress in the general gay rights and equality movement in the last 5-10 years but are the AFL as a large corporate citizen doing their part? Is their workplace doing anything beyond the standard societal stuff? Could they be doing more?

They pretty reasonable questions.

Fair enough those are absolutely valid questions. Is the only metric for success a player choosing to come out though?

 

[edgie]

Right, well i think we probably need a balance between your forced (likely traumatic) progress and the current almost stagnagt progress.

Education, best practice, AFL led initiatives is probably somewhere in between.

Again, this isnt about s**t canning the AFL holistically, to me, its asking a pretty reasonable question of them, are you doing enough given this pretty gaping hole youve got in representation.

Well, we can agree that we need a balance then?

But I have wider thoughts about society and sexuality in the modern world that feel more jaded than they did, a decade ago, that I may be projecting to the AFL.

 

[edgie]

hey edgie this isnt the thread to have shots at the crows over a racism issue, stop it

ok

 

[Bostonian]

I find it easy to believe that culture turns almost all of them away.

Statistics from general culture don't have be be equally represented in every subculture and industry.

That would be like assuming that greater sexual identity ratios as equally represent at a Kylie Minogue concert.

I'd say for masculine gay men footy clubs would actually appeal to them.

They like the blokey physical camaraderie of the team game.

A recent study suggests these masculine gay men actually have a bias/discrimination against more feminine gay men.

So it's not that hard at all to imagine there's a few gay players running around in the league now because it suits their personalities.

 

[HarryBeef]

There is undeniably a homophobic/Bogan bloke culture in the AFL/footy media industry sadly which i think is part of the problem Four Corners is talking about

And on twitter too

 

[phantom13]

Fair enough those are absolutely valid questions. Is the only metric for success a player choosing to come out though?

Of course not, but it is a fairly big milestone.

If the report found that clubs and the AFL are doing everything possible (or even just doing a fair amount of stuff) to support and educate then youd probably go "hmm, weird outlier" but they didnt find that.

 

[phantom13]

Well, we can agree that we need a balance then?

But I have wider thoughts about society and sexuality in the modern world that feel more jaded than they did, a decade ago, that I may be projecting to the AFL.

I mean, i cant stress anymore that progress has been made but thats not a reason to stop trying.

 

[JackOutback]

The first gay AFL player has played, retired and possibly even died by now.

It does seem odd that not one has come out, given how quickly society and young people in particular have become accepting of gender and sexual diversity, which suggests either the club environment or the social environment discourages them from doing so. Given the number of dinosaurs in AFL clubs, commentary, media etc, can't say I blame them.

 

[edgie]

I mean, i cant stress anymore that progress has been made but thats not a reason to stop trying.

Of course.

I worry progress is being undone or stalling, despite the surface level stuff looking better than ever.

 

[Bipolar Bear]

Wrong POV on it.

Nobody is saying they have to, the question is being asked do they feel comfortable too.

Do they feel that being open about their sexuality (the way heterosexuals are) will not impact on their livelihood, their personal lives, their opportunities etc etc.

They dont have to, but they should feel 100% comfortable that they can be out.

If they want to, then that's fine obviously. I am saying that the expectation is stupid. We normalise homosexuality by not being phased by it

 

[phantom13]

If they want to, then that's fine obviously. I am saying that the expectation is stupid. We normalise homosexuality by not being phased by it

Yeh again, im pretty sure everyone would want to be able to just be themselves and not hide their sexuality but clearly the gay players (and there are gay players) arent comfortable doing that yet.

Thats the point.

Youre implying that someone is saying they have to come out, the report and the question is is the AFL creating an environment where they feel safe and then naturally WANT to come out.

 

[undefined]

AFL 'frontbenchers' & club powerbrokers often socialise with players, whether it be at functions, sporting events like the Tennis/Grand Prix, at the Sorrento Hotel, what have you. I know for a fact this includes openly gay male players with their partners.

If x AFLm player were to rock up to Crown on Brownlow night with a male partner by their side, without prior public knowledge of their sexual preference, there needn't be a 'please explain' of any sort issued. Attaching sexuality to one's image is part of the problem, and it's one's prerogative as to whether they enable this to happen. If in their position, I'd be hesitant to make a huge deal of coming out to the wider footballing community, especially considering how insufferably invasive the AFL media is.

 

[Bipolar Bear]

Yeh again, im pretty sure everyone would want to be able to just be themselves and not hide their sexuality but clearly the gay players (and there are gay players) arent comfortable doing that yet.

Thats the point.

Youre implying that someone is saying they have to come out, the report and the question is is the AFL creating an environment where they feel safe and then naturally WANT to come out.

I'm not implying anything, I'm explicitly stating that it shouldn't matter at a societal level. But sadly it seems to.

 

[Belnakor]

If in their position, I'd be hesitant to make a huge deal of coming out to the wider footballing community, especially considering how insufferably invasive the AFL media is.

its 100% the case its the medias fault not some homophobic stuff.

its why in the english premier league it basically took a youth player coming through and just being like "yeah i'm gay and?"

 

[Chief]

Attaching sexuality to one's image is part of the problem

It's unavoidable when nights like the Brownlow include a celebration of how hot the WAGs look in their designer dresses.

 

[phantom13]

I'm not implying anything, I'm explicitly stating that it shouldn't matter at a societal level. But sadly it seems to.

Yeh it shouldn’t it but it does. That’s the world we live in.

 

[Young Gun #6]

you can disagree all you want Freshwater but the reality is that our terms of reference are just that

terms of reference constructed to make sense of things

statistically certain behaviours are more commonly observed in men than women, and vice versa and thus in the past have been attributed to masculine or feminine

but beyond that, what is considered one or the other is also something that is socially conditioned and promoted/discouraged

like how women were seen as the home makers and thus discouraged from working, discouraged from playing sport because of "risks to fertility"

boys told not to play with dolls because "men don't do that" etc

in a hetero normative society where the "defaults" are set a certain way, by being gay you are already not conforming, so if you're going to considered an outsider why bother worrying about other norms that you don't feel the need to maintain?

I never liked contact sports, I preferred basketball or cricket to footy or soccer but I also mostly played them at school because thats what all my friends were doing

so if I wanted to hang around with my mates at lunch time I had to do what they were doing

people do stuff to belong as well as because they want to

This makes me think about a conversation I had with an environmentalist recently regarding the spotted hyena species.

It is actually interesting to hypothesize about a matriarchal society as we would actually have to hypothesize given it's never happened in the human species.

The spotted hyena societal structure is facinating to learn about as one of the only specieis in the world where the females are more dominant and of a higher rank the males. They have psuedo penises, are larger, stay in the same tribe/community their entire lives and sit a top of the social rankings.

It's interesting to wonder how our society would run as a matriarchal society. I think it's slowly heading closer from as dominant a patriarchal society as it was with the lowest natural testorone rates of males in the history of civilisation.

Outliers exist in all forms of society though, it's a super morally and ethically interesting conversation to consider it as the most social mammals on this planet. Because we are so social and have increased mental intelligence it is interesting how much thought we do give to these issues which are either not scrutinized or even discussed through verbal communication in other animals.

Super interesting when you compare humans to other animals and the facts or our inclinations at all instances whether consciously or sub-consciously to be selfish 100% of the time in line with being such a strong verbally communicative society.

 

[Bostonian]

The first gay AFL player has played, retired and possibly even died by now.

It does seem odd that not one has come out, given how quickly society and young people in particular have become accepting of gender and sexual diversity, which suggests either the club environment or the social environment discourages them from doing so. Given the number of dinosaurs in AFL clubs, commentary, media etc, can't say I blame them.

Genuine question.

If the gay players in the AFL were more conservative slanted would this make it less likely they would see the need to "come out"?

Prefering to keep a low profile of their private lives.

 

[edgie]

The first gay AFL player has played, retired and possibly even died by now.

It does seem odd that not one has come out, given how quickly society and young people in particular have become accepting of gender and sexual diversity, which suggests either the club environment or the social environment discourages them from doing so. Given the number of dinosaurs in AFL clubs, commentary, media etc, can't say I blame them.

You'd be naïve to think the behaviours of young people, young private school boys, aren't also contributing to that feeling, and that it is all squarely on the dinosaurs.

 

[undefined]

It's unavoidable when nights like the Brownlow include a celebration of how hot the WAGs look in their designer dresses.

And that's symptomatic of how tokenistic our society is.