Mega Thread Hot Topic - Drugs and AFL

[Jim Dixon]

So... now we have to go forward with this.

Firstly I want our guys Paddy and Angus to realise that their interests are best served by sticking to the Port Adelaide FC and not so much with the other 32 players. Our club advised them to take a deal, I believe, and because the players seemingly genuinely believed they were innocent PAFC allowed them to continue the fight against WADA.

From what has been publicly revealed, Paddy and Angus didn't declare their injections to ASADA when they should have. So they've got only themselves to blame. And those mistakes that they've made have landed us in a bit of difficulty with our playing list, and our salary cap.

And we've publicly said as a club that we'll stand by them. Ken Hinkley publicly praised their character. So now I want these guys to stand by us too and not get involved in frivolous legal actions. Put it this way, when our club, and by that I mean KT really, advises them to take certain course of action, I expect them to follow that advice.

I love what both these boys bring to our club, as both players and as men. I want us to give Angus some security that he's still got a place in 2017 as long as he keeps his fitness up; we'll give him a good chance to fight for his place at any rate. The PAFC will look after them. But they've got to look after us, as well. Tell KT everything and no more lawsuits!

*

Just by the by, I wouldn't mind the club reviewing the advice they got from their club lawyers in the cold hard light of day. I'm no lawyer but I read the AFL anti-doping code and that was enough for me to figure the guys were probably stuffed from the get-go. But going by the reaction of the media, BigFooty posters and the AFLPA, that seems to be very much a minority view.

My concern is that the club got advice that they needed to know, not advice that they wanted to hear. Going by the way that the Essendon FC, James Hird and the ALFPA has been carrying on (like pork chops) I wonder what the bloody hell their lawyers have been telling them.

So at the Feb board meeting that we've heard about, I wouldn't mind KT asking a couple of the hard-hearts on the board to review what our lawyers told us. Amanda Vanstone would be ideal for this, how many submissions did she read as a minister?

 

[Steve Dore]

....... So now I want these guys to stand by us too and not get involved in frivolous legal actions. .......

I wouldn't consider Gus and Paddy seeking compensation from Essendon for effectively #$*&ing their careers and potentially their long term health frivolous.

I also don't consider those two taking such action as being anything to do with the PAFC and certainly not a sign that they are not standing by the club. It may well be a distraction if they were playing but as they are not able have any contact with the club until November I don't see how this can hurt.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Titus O'Reily 'James had to get a new bus to fit everyone under'

 

[OneGreatClub]

So... now we have to go forward with this.

Firstly I want our guys Paddy and Angus to realise that their interests are best served by sticking to the Port Adelaide FC and not so much with the other 32 players. Our club advised them to take a deal, I believe, and because the players seemingly genuinely believed they were innocent PAFC allowed them to continue the fight against WADA.

From what has been publicly revealed, Paddy and Angus didn't declare their injections to ASADA when they should have. So they've got only themselves to blame. And those mistakes that they've made have landed us in a bit of difficulty with our playing list, and our salary cap.

And we've publicly said as a club that we'll stand by them. Ken Hinkley publicly praised their character. So now I want these guys to stand by us too and not get involved in frivolous legal actions. Put it this way, when our club, and by that I mean KT really, advises them to take certain course of action, I expect them to follow that advice.

I love what both these boys bring to our club, as both players and as men. I want us to give Angus some security that he's still got a place in 2017 as long as he keeps his fitness up; we'll give him a good chance to fight for his place at any rate. The PAFC will look after them. But they've got to look after us, as well. Tell KT everything and no more lawsuits!

*

Just by the by, I wouldn't mind the club reviewing the advice they got from their club lawyers in the cold hard light of day. I'm no lawyer but I read the AFL anti-doping code and that was enough for me to figure the guys were probably stuffed from the get-go. But going by the reaction of the media, BigFooty posters and the AFLPA, that seems to be very much a minority view.

My concern is that the club got advice that they needed to know, not advice that they wanted to hear. Going by the way that the Essendon FC, James Hird and the ALFPA has been carrying on (like pork chops) I wonder what the bloody hell their lawyers have been telling them.

So at the Feb board meeting that we've heard about, I wouldn't mind KT asking a couple of the hard-hearts on the board to review what our lawyers told us. Amanda Vanstone would be ideal for this, how many submissions did she read as a minister?

Our club has stood by these players and will continue to do so. If there is any innocent party in this it is our club. Paddy and Gus owe it to our club to do absolutely everything to stay as match fit and body fit as they can. I wonder if any recent past players could train with them but I would not want our club to be forking out $$$ to fund this, it should come from the players' pockets, both players have been paid well by our club

 

[OneGreatClub]

Titus O'Reily 'James had to get a new bus to fit everyone under'

Nah he was ok.

 

[raptalia]

Titus O'Reily 'James had to get a new bus to fit everyone under'

Hope that is not a Ford Fairlane being crushed.

 

[raptalia]

Obviously footy is a team game, requires team awareness, constant team drillls. I'm not sure what Port will do to assist these players with their training. I fear it might take them better than half a season of match experience before they will be able to play to the same standard they could before the suspension.

These guys will be back in September and as has been posted if they did an ACL they would probably be out for longer. The psychological effects may be greater than any deterioration in physical conditioning. The isolation from the rest of the playing group is unnecessarily harsh and borders on a violation of human rights. I agree with Hird that the players will suffer from the drug cheat stigma.

 

[Eddie Dingle]

...I agree with Hird that the players will suffer from the drug cheat stigma.

So Hird now has the players best interests at heart?

Well I never.

 

[chiwigi]

These guys will be back in September and as has been posted if they did an ACL they would probably be out for longer. The psychological effects may be greater than any deterioration in physical conditioning. The isolation from the rest of the playing group is unnecessarily harsh and borders on a violation of human rights. I agree with Hird that the players will suffer from the drug cheat stigma.

Erm, so they should...they are drug cheats. The stigma is the only thing that prevents others doing it. A ban, though hard to take, is a risk well worth taking for the benefits of cheating (professional sports contracts, premierships etc), the stigma not so much.

 

[OneGreatClub]

These guys will be back in September and as has been posted if they did an ACL they would probably be out for longer. The psychological effects may be greater than any deterioration in physical conditioning. The isolation from the rest of the playing group is unnecessarily harsh and borders on a violation of human rights. I agree with Hird that the players will suffer from the drug cheat stigma.

At least socially they can still catch up and perhaps Choppy could give them a few chop outs, no chance of them getting soft then.

 

[PAWt]

James Hird interview now available on ABC i-View.

Thanks for the summary Raptalia. I honestly couldn't stomach watching James Hird speak at the moment.

 

[Jason K]

Wow, just watched the Hird thing. What a piece of s**t he is. He's lied so much he almost believes himself.

 

[badbeats]

Hird won't admit his involvement in anything. His wife is a lawyer and she would have immediately told him to not disclose anything because if he does then he might as well camp at the court house with all the lawsuits he'd get.

Same goes for Dank.

There was no papertrail for a reason.

 

[raptalia]

Hird is complicit for sure but in my view one of the real villains is still coaching in the AFL. That person had far more influence in getting Robinson and Dank to Essendon than James Hird.

I believe that James Hird had genuine concern for the players at Essendon both before and after the event. Hird's real shortcoming was not that he didn't care but that he did not ask enough questions and he appeared to lack any detailed knowledge about what could be happening. In mid 2012 Hird did not know what a peptide was and had to ask an ASADA investigator. I smiled when Hird recounted the episode because as soon as he asked the question the AFL wanted to know why he was so interested in peptides. So much for broadening one's knowledge of a subject.

Clearly Hird failed in his duty of care but some people are drawing a long bow when they link Hird directly into Stephen Dank's activity.

 

[FallingLiefs]

Hird is complicit for sure but in my view one of the real villains is still coaching in the AFL. That person had far more influence in getting Robinson and Dank to Essendon than James Hird.

I believe that James Hird had genuine concern for the players at Essendon both before and after the event. Hird's real shortcoming was not that he didn't care but that he did not ask enough questions and he appeared to lack any detailed knowledge about what could be happening. In mid 2012 Hird did not know what a peptide was and had to ask an ASADA investigator. I smiled when Hird recounted the episode because as soon as he asked the question the AFL wanted to know why he was so interested in peptides. So much for broadening one's knowledge of a subject.

Clearly Hird failed in his duty of care but some people are drawing a long bow when they link Hird directly into Stephen Dank's activity.

Like say being injected with a non-WADA compliant drug by Dank on site? I don't believe a single word he said last night 100% scripted and absolute garbage. As far as I'm concerned the way he tip-toed around Dank says dank still has him over the barrel.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Like say being injected with a non-WADA compliant drug by Dank on site? I don't believe a single word he said last night 100% scripted and absolute garbage. As far as I'm concerned the way he tip-toed around Dank says dank still has him over the barrel.

The one question I wish she had asked is 'Why did the players lie about the injections and who told them to keep the program hush"

 

[Andre]

Hird is complicit for sure but in my view one of the real villains is still coaching in the AFL. That person had far more influence in getting Robinson and Dank to Essendon than James Hird.

I believe that James Hird had genuine concern for the players at Essendon both before and after the event. Hird's real shortcoming was not that he didn't care but that he did not ask enough questions and he appeared to lack any detailed knowledge about what could be happening. In mid 2012 Hird did not know what a peptide was and had to ask an ASADA investigator. I smiled when Hird recounted the episode because as soon as he asked the question the AFL wanted to know why he was so interested in peptides. So much for broadening one's knowledge of a subject.

Clearly Hird failed in his duty of care but some people are drawing a long bow when they link Hird directly into Stephen Dank's activity.

At some point whether he had knowledge or not, the buck stopped with Hird as Senior Coach. The whole process for him has been spread enough s**t around and every gets a little smeared, but no one gets smeared to the point, they are pointed to as 'The person' who should have stepped in and stopped it and to blame when he didn't. So very 20th/21st century politics of share the blame, take all the credit.

 

[Quadzilla]

At some point whether he had knowledge or not, the buck stopped with Hird as Senior Coach. The whole process for him has been spread enough s**t around and every gets a little smeared, but no one gets smeared to the point, they are pointed to as 'The person' who should have stepped in and stopped it and to blame when he didn't. So very 20th/21st century politics of share the blame, take all the credit.

Hird seemed to want to smear Doc Reid more by saying he need take more responsibility. Didnt the Doc try to intervene in 2012 about the injections with Footy manager, Hamilton and Hird and was shut down?

 

[Ian Jackson]

So Hird now has the players best interests at heart?

Well I never.

Late change in tactic! Still at least he is acknowledging that the players were duped (just not by him!).

 

[Portology]

Hird is complicit for sure but in my view one of the real villains is still coaching in the AFL. That person had far more influence in getting Robinson and Dank to Essendon than James Hird.

I believe that James Hird had genuine concern for the players at Essendon both before and after the event. Hird's real shortcoming was not that he didn't care but that he did not ask enough questions and he appeared to lack any detailed knowledge about what could be happening. In mid 2012 Hird did not know what a peptide was and had to ask an ASADA investigator. I smiled when Hird recounted the episode because as soon as he asked the question the AFL wanted to know why he was so interested in peptides. So much for broadening one's knowledge of a subject.

Clearly Hird failed in his duty of care but some people are drawing a long bow when they link Hird directly into Stephen Dank's activity.

Agree Bomber is getting some lack of attention but I don't think it reduces Hird's complicity at all. There was a piece by Caro in the Age in 2013 claiming Bomber had expressed concerns about getting into the program but was over-ruled by Hird... don't know if that claim is attested to in the record of either of the investigations.

People find it hard to believe James could have so stupid as to be unaware of what Dank was doing, and far more credible that he deliberately kept space between himself and details. Didn't know what a peptide was. Neither did players who lied on their ASADA reports. Players didn't even ask but convinced themselves it was legal if James said so, yet also convinced themselves it was worth lying about to a drug inspector. Apparently if you say "cognitive dissonance" quickly enough it sounds like "competitive advantage". I can see that failure from a group of players in a bubble, but James went far further.

Having got an answer from the AFL in 2011 that suggested peptides were a dangerous area, he didn't probe the AFL further, retreating into a security bubble. Why? Sidebar: if you're the AFL, you should treat an isolated, un-followed-up enquiry like that as suspicious in itself. THEN he tells players "their" program IS legal. Admits looking for a "right up to the edge" program, didn't take reasonable steps to gain assurance. Now, he affects that the extent of his negligence was lack of awareness of the details. It's just not credible. It's more credible that he deliberately avoided details "just in case".

Most people would have gone "WTF are we getting into?" and made repeat, dogged enquiries to multiple sources of information, and well documented that rather than delegate critical workplace safety matters and careers and reputations of an entire playing list to two ... mercenaries, allegedly in the interest of secrecy. Instead all we have is a single email from Hird to Robinson saying "the program must be legal". Why did James not ask THE BLOODY CLUB DOC, or delegate detailed enquiry to him, no secrecy issue there unless there WAS a safety or legality question? Instead all we have is a txt complaint from Hird that "the Doc is stopping everything". And what in the end brought it all unstuck? A letter from the doc, a letter that started a thousand shredders...

 

[Jim Dixon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_responsibility

 

[Steve Dore]

James Hird = plausible deniability

 

[Steve Dore]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_responsibility

But Hird is saying that he wasn't in command. It's all the CEO's fault.

 

[Portology]

James Hird = implausible deniability

ftfy


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[PowerSupremacy]

What can we do to help Gus and Paddy?
The rules are pretty clear that the boys can't have any involvement with the club until Sept.

Has any thing been said by the club to suggest ways in which the supporter base can help?

We can make a sign showing our support for the lads and wave it about at the games and hope it gets seen on telly.
What else?
If Paddy and Gus wanted to run "circle work" days, I'd come along. I could play the part of Kane Mitchell disposal-wise. That'd help them with their "ground ball gets"
They can come to games, right? Can they sit with the WAGs and other players watching?
If not, do we dedicate a section of the ground for them to hang out at where we can rally around them?

I want to help.
And I want to help in a meaningful way..... Does anyone have a club insider?
Ask them - How can we help these lads?