How could a list like we have be assembled?

[Dory_77]

I think a percentage of our development was hampered by some of our more experienced players being forced out of the club by fail-ey ... McDonald (forced into retirement), Bruce (should have got the 2 years he wanted) and Robbo (also should have got 2 more years) and to an extent Paul Wheatley. Old heads on a field are like second coaches, they give the younger guys guidance and can definatley fast-track their development and learn to respect the club. Playing senior football at 20 years old if a 30 year old club favourite came to me and said 'run here' or 'you should have done this' ... It's all I would think about next contest. During the past 3 years apart from Brad Green we havent had those types on the ground. A succesful team is all about the mix of youth, established and experienced, I think has a team with at 3-4 players 28+ is ideal.

I think you're right there. Even if they only played half or 3/4 of the season, still having them guys around to set the example and offer guidance would've been very useful for the young 'uns who have never really known what to do when the pressure in a game really lifts.

 

[Animosity]

I think you're right there. Even if they only played half or 3/4 of the season, still having them guys around to set the example and offer guidance would've been very useful for the young 'uns who have never really known what to do when the pressure in a game really lifts.

The positive thing is that Rivers,Maloney(if he can get in some form next year and is still around) Sylvia,Martin and Jamar are going to start to take these roles on in the next few years which is not a bad experienced group if their bodies can hold up ok

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

I don't think we just happened to pick a raft of duds. Players are selected in the draft because they are good junior players, from there it's mostly a development issue. Every team has good and bad outcomes with players. Obviously we have been poor at developing player skills and fitness over the past few years, but it's never too late to turn things around and Neeld is doing that now, I'm really interested to see where the team is at one year from now.

Absolutely correct. I've been highlighting that issue for a long while now. It's very clear that up until the end of last year, our football department, and hence our player development in general, was sub-standard. And until relatively recently, our facilities were also substantially below par, of course.

 

[Slattery_20]

I agree with a lot of the comments that the list is not getting the most out of itself.

They just look terribly coached & conditioned. Lack of urgency, lack of direction, and when they do start doing the right things, they drop off far too quickly.

Leadership, recruiting, injuries, and so on & so forth obviously comes into it; but to my eye, it looks like Neeld got a fairly rude shock when he walked in the door from Collingwood - and didn't cope particularly well with bringing such a large number of guys up to the mark, from so far back.
Hard to build on shaky foundations.
But that's by the bye, and no doubt he's taken a fair bit out of these first 16 weeks.

The one thing Melbourne simply cannot afford to do is pick guys who don't train, prepare, or follow game-plans well; or cut guys who do all those things.

 

[Animosity]

And until relatively recently, our facilities were also substantially below par, of course.

I heard at the time when Judd was considering his Victorian options he literally laughed at our training facilities and automatically crossed the dees off his list?

 

[Slattery_20]

I heard at the time when Judd was considering his Victorian options he literally laughed at our training facilities and automatically crossed the dees off his list?

When he crossed, Optus was literally a building site; and Ratten had won about 4 games. Somehow that impressed him enough to make a big decision?
The 'tours' were a charade for the cameras. Complete pretence, he'd signed well before that.

 

[Viney]

I agree with those who say development has been a huge issue.

However, I also think there's an aspect of recruiting that has been involved as well.

What we haven't had in quite some time is what I'd deem to be an innovative coach.

Daniher and Bailey were basically continually mimicking the previous flag winner's game plan, never innovating a new game plan that would change the way the game was being played.

A result of this, in my mind, is that we were often recruiting players who weren't really quite fitting the current game.

Under Danners, we recruited Dunn and Bate, as an example. Their size / body shape / lack of speed / agility etc. meant that they were almost relics before they even laced up a boot.

They were recruited as forwards, but by the time they'd debuted, they weren't quite tall enough for the forward line, they weren't quite agile enough for the midfield

So what we've seen with these 2 (and I'm only using them as 1 example) is they've never really settled into a position

Under Bailey he wanted to mimic the fast free flowing gameplan that took Geelong all the way. So he recruited a whole heap of tall skinny atheletes who could run all day

But then came the press

Blokes like Morton (whilst I still hope can find some form because his ability to spread COULD be important) don't really fit the hard running, hard bodied, defensive player that seem to dominate games now

The recruiters recruit to suit the coaches gameplan, our gamplans have been lagging and what have been failing us IMO

 

[Slattery_20]

The core of any gameplan & good side is winning the ball. There's a fairly long list of Dees, who you would not back in a one-on-one.

 

[Viney]

The core of any gameplan & good side is winning the ball. There's a fairly long list of Dees, who you would not back in a one-on-one.

And this is due to a handful being developed as ball winners (i.e. Jones / Moloney) and the rest being developed into running receivers

Once the press was implemented into the game, Bailey's gameplan was destined to fail

 

[Slattery_20]

I don't know if Morton/Bennell/Dunn etc were ever really built to be ball winners.

 

[Viney]

I don't know if Morton/Bennell/Dunn etc were ever really built to be ball winners.

Dunn? 192cms 95kg Dunn?

Dunn's fine in this regard

Morton and Bennell I agree - but that's my point

They were recruited to suit a gameplan quickly becoming outdated and superceeded by bigger boddied contested footballers

Our coaches have been 1 game plan behind for as long as I can remember

 

[Slattery_20]

I don't agree on Dunn, but that's not crucial.

I agree with your point about the wrong types. I just don't know that really outside guys were ever really 'in fashion'.
Cats had Byrnes, Stokes and that's about it; their other players (everyone over about 5'9") could all scrap it out. Same with Pies (Didak & Davis, everyone else good in a contest).

 

[Viney]

I don't agree on Dunn, but that's not crucial.

I agree with your point about the wrong types. I just don't know that really outside guys were ever really 'in fashion'.
Cats had Byrnes, Stokes and that's about it; their other players (everyone over about 5'9") could all scrap it out. Same with Pies (Didak & Davis, everyone else good in a contest).

Yes but the difference here is that these teams had elite fitness programs and built up quickly (in body size and stamina) so they could run all day and still cop body contact

Bailey recruited skinny athletes and it appears as though they were banned from the gym

I look at teams like Geelong and Collingwood (they've been the benchmark for the last few years) and their 18 / 19 year old players are more physically developed than some of our 22 - 23 year old players

Neeld is addressing this now, but it will take more than 1 preseason

THis is why I'm surprised people are surprised we've gone "backwards" this year

 

[Jeebs]

Nice post Viney.

Though re 'THis is why I'm surprised people are surprised we've gone "backwards" this year,
This time last year we were about to be one game out of the eight. Now, we're one game off 18th.
I expected us to go backwards. I did not expect us to lose 7 positions in 12 months (~port to port).

 

[Viney]

Nice post Viney.

Though re 'THis is why I'm surprised people are surprised we've gone "backwards" this year,
This time last year we were about to be one game out of the eight. Now, we're one game off 18th.
I expected us to go backwards. I did not expect us to lose 7 positions in 12 months (~port to port).

Don't get me wrong, it's been a shocking year and I would've hoped for far more wins

But everything within the club is changing (especially relating towards the playing group)

The style change is huge (and Neeld needs to see who can and who cannot play to the plan)
The fitness change needed is / was monumental (this will take a couple of preseasons - even for more experienced players)
We have one way runners learning to run both ways
We've had a horrific run of injuries - especially to young players over the last few years (i.e. Blease / Strauss / Gys / Tappy) <-- these blokes have all played under 20 games each when they should've been close to 50 + each now

All that aside, I'm sure Neeld and Co. would've been expecting more wins

But the heartening thing for me is that aside from a few blowouts, we've been competitive until 3 quarter time in a lot of matches

 

[stretcharmstrong]

Great discussion the last dozen or so posts guys

 

[Eth]

Agreed on just about everything, Viney.

 

[CTHORANGE]

We've definately been hit with a lot of long term injuries to young players, fingers crossed this luck changes. Neeld and co have some good draft picks this year, I'm backing him in to make the right calls. Imagine being interviewed by him, it'd be challenging im sure.

 

[Demons2012]

I agree that development has been the major letdown in our list. A lot of the highly rated youngsters have not imporved since their first season.

Another preseason and a bit more depth we will see significant improvement (though I said the same thing last year too)

 

[Sir Hugh Percy]

I, for one, thought that we had a pretty well balanced list at the start of the season, with the addition of Clark, and couldn’t wait for the season to begin.

You look at the forward line of Clark being the big body to attract defenders, supported by Watts, Jurrah, Howe, Petterd and Green (I thought Greeny would be better without the captaincy burden) who all become dangerous without being the focal point.

The back line including Frawley, Rivers, McDonald, Garland and Grimes with rebound from Bartram, Nicholson and co seemed pretty good, and the midfield had plenty of likely in-and-under types.

We had an AA ruckman ably supported by Martin with others waiting in the wings.

The only deficiencies I saw were a small crumbing forward capable of kicking a bag (haven’t really rated Bennell) and a pacey, outside midfielder with sweet kicking skills to get it inside 50, but I had hoped that Bail, Blease or Gysberts might fill either or both of these roles.

I thought we compared very favourably with the likes of Essendon and Carlton who both have gaping holes in their lists. The Bombers lack big backs and inside mids (and probably a big forward unless Gumby can deliver long term), while the Blues lack consistent key position players all over the ground.

Somewhere along the line it all went horribly wrong. I still think we’ve got the balance and the talent, but I think early big losses shattered their confidence in the new game plan and each other. Many of the guys I’ve listed above have had interrupted seasons - some have barely got out on the park at all. And there’s been an inexplicable lack of output from Jamar, Moloney and Trengove who are all crucial.

I suppose you can take consolation from the fact that things can’t really get any worse, but I hoping for better than that. With this list we should be able to at least make finals. Winning the big one is another matter I guess…

 

[Viney]

And your last line is the clincher for mine

If we had continued on with Bailey and his gameplan, we would continue to win 8 - 10 games, may sneak into the finals and get a caining from the top 4 (8) teams

We'd only catch teams napping and win these games as we did under Bailey

BUT, it wouldn't stand up in finals (if we snuck in) and it certainly wouldn't take us to the ultimate glory.

Neeld saw this and is changing everything top to bottom

It's taking the players time to adapt to such a dramatic shift in fitness and gameplan

Neeld will be judged on his latter 2nd and 3rd years from me

 

[ExTasDeeMan]

List isn't the problem, it's the machine that has been broken. Our recruitment science can't be that bad that other players taken after become stars. It actually makes me think about the consequences of the debt demolition a few years back - did we save money by cutting corners everywhere in order to achieve 0 debt?

 

[Samsara]

Watching the game tonight, it's sad to see how poor our list is. Absolute amateurs most of them.

 

[MAXIMUM GRUNDAGE]

When he crossed, Optus was literally a building site; and Ratten had won about 4 games. Somehow that impressed him enough to make a big decision?
The 'tours' were a charade for the cameras. Complete pretence, he'd signed well before that.

Did hear something that Denis Pagan stayed in Perth for a couple of days after this match:
http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/games/2007/031820070422.html
had a talk to Judd, who made the decision to go to Carlton back then.

 

[On the bench]

Watching the game tonight, it's sad to see how poor our list is. Absolute amateurs most of them.

Sadly have to agree one thing about most of our players is how dumb some of them are how many times against Port did you see one of our players take a mark & kick the ball into the player standing the marks hands?It should be common knowledge to get back off the mark quickly to give yourself some space so the ball wont be partly smothered by the person on the mark!Then not to mention how many times we kick the ball on the full!