Science & Mathematics Infinity

[evo]

My statement was that it's best not to use logic to draw physical conclusions.

Well to be fair to me, you didn't say that originally. And I have distanced myself repeatedly from the purely physical from the outset. I'm a rationalist, so to speak; and potentially a nondualist.. Perhaps I'm somewhat like your man Bardou.

This what you said...

Logic assumes a deterministic world view, which is plainly false.

That's a fair hike away from "logic is false".

hmm ok, well I think we may have crossed wires then. You did say it is dependent on determinsim, a falsity. So the clear implication, to me at least, is you believe it is not a useful tool. You then precede to appeal to it repeatedly.

Interesting discourse, nevertheless. I think we have pretty much exhausted this line of inquiry now. Cheers

 

[Opportunity Cost]

The odds of say 300,000 in ~ 45,000,000 are nowhere near the extreme odds of 1 in 50,000,000. The fact that ozlotto is won every 2 or 3 weeks is testament to that.

I think you missed the point there, he said the chances are higher than you winning ozlotto. Not ozlotto being won.

 

[Wally Carter]

I think you missed the point there, he said the chances are higher than you winning ozlotto. Not ozlotto being won.

It's still a poor comparison.

 

[Frodo]

If the Big Bang is accpeted as the best explanation to the beginning of the universe and that the universe is expanding constantly, how does infinity factor into the equation?

First of all, the universe has to expand into some sort of vacant space, and if the universe is finite what is outside of the boundries?

Also if the sun is a giant ball of flame, what happened to spark the fire in the first place? Doesn't fire need O2 to sustain it?

Firstly big bang cannot be the beginning as the gasses had to precede it.

Secondly infinity ends at the beginning.

Everything is a cycle.

 

[dr nick]

Firstly big bang cannot be the beginning as the gasses had to precede it.

With newtonian physics that would be true, as time is the constant variable... but with all this fancy relativity theory and whatnot its proposed that time slows down as you approach the speed of light... and yeah the conditions as you wind back to the big bang.... well some theories say time slows and slows slows the closer and closer you get to the big bang. Go close enough to the start (or point of singularity) and time would stop... such that no time preceeded it.

Very complicated and i have none of the detail at hand, but along those lines I heard very good explanations how there didnt have to be anything that came before the big bang.

 

[Frodo]

With newtonian physics that would be true, as time is the constant variable... but with all this fancy relativity theory and whatnot its proposed that time slows down as you approach the speed of light... and yeah the conditions as you wind back to the big bang.... well some theories say time slows and slows slows the closer and closer you get to the big bang. Go close enough to the start (or point of singularity) and time would stop... such that no time preceeded it.

Very complicated and i have none of the detail at hand, but along those lines I heard very good explanations how there didnt have to be anything that came before the big bang.

then it was caused by nothing

 

[dr nick]

lol, fantastic grasp of the concept.

That very statement implies there was time preceeding, which may not have necessarily been the case.

 

[Moonwatcher]

then it was caused by nothing

These theories do not have a t=0 (to my knowledge) so for every moment in time eg t=t(1) there is an earlier time say t= t(1)/2 so all moments have a "cause" to the extent that QM allows.

 

[Mean Muggin]

On a different topic, the notion that we are all made of star dust suggests that it is quantifiable, however reproduction means that we can create matter (stardust) using the right tools. Therefore, if we originated from star dust, then this idea that we are a fluke and considered unique, is baseless IMO.

What's to say stardust didn't replicate itself into something similar elsewhere - especially if the universe is infinate?

 

[Dawson]

On a different topic, the notion that we are all made of star dust suggests that it is quantifiable, however reproduction means that we can create matter (stardust) using the right tools. Therefore, if we originated from star dust, then this idea that we are a fluke and considered unique, is baseless IMO.

What's to say stardust didn't replicate itself into something similar elsewhere - especially if the universe is infinate?

I think the fluke part is the one chromosome that mutated in our nearest relatives that created humans.
If life exists elsewhere then the fluke would need to be replicated to produce a 'human form' of life. Long odds of that happening I would suggest.

 

[BomberGal]

then it was caused by nothing

Either it's always been there or it started out of nothing. Come on.

 

[dr nick]

Bryce McGain's average

 

[Frodo]

[qote=BomberGal;16532895]Either it's al
ways been there or it started out of nothing. Come on.[/quote]


Always been there is to have no start. That is illogical.

On the other hand maths is illogical.............or please explain the value of the square root of -1

Or explain why differential equations have two results that are equal. ie you can prove that 1 = 16

 

[dr nick]

you can prove that 1 = 16

how do u do that? by dividing by 0 somewhere along the line?

 

[BomberGal]

Always been there is to have no start. That is illogical.

Not sure what you're arguing anymore. But not all physics is intuitive.

 

[sen entertainment bloke]

Always been there is to have no start. That is illogical.

Always there is the right answer. It is quite logical when you see it.

 

[Wally Carter]

Please, enough with the dick sizing and more of the theory.

Thanks.

 

[sen entertainment bloke]

Please, enough with the dick sizing and more of the theory.

Thanks.

What the hell is dick sizing?

Space is always there. Has no beginning or end. From Frodo's point of view something does logically and 'eternally' exist.

 

[dr nick]

 

[Dawson]

What the hell is dick sizing?

Always been dick sizing!

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Don't have time to read through the thread just yet but what are some of the better documentaries etc on this subject? I love hearing theories about this and learning more about every possibility.

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Most of this debate seems to be about the size of Universe and whether or not finite or infinite is possible but what about the size of the universe in terms of time? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but was there a before the Universe? If so, how was the "before" created and was it a fluke?

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Most of this debate seems to be about the size of Universe and whether or not finite or infinite is possible but what about the size of the universe in terms of time? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but was there a before the Universe? If so, how was the "before" created and was it a fluke?

that would assume time is linear, as we experience it.

In reality, there simply was no time before the universe. It's hard to comprehend, but that's the way it is.

There is a school of thought that says time is in fact nothing more than the expansion of the universe, and that if the universe starts retracting, time will actually go backwards.

Now that's a head**** and a half

 

[Mean Muggin]

that would assume time is linear, as we experience it.

In reality, there simply was no time before the universe. It's hard to comprehend, but that's the way it is.

There is a school of thought that says time is in fact nothing more than the expansion of the universe, and that if the universe starts retracting, time will actually go backwards.

Now that's a head**** and a half

Very much a head****...in fact everything about it is. You can see how religion sucks so many in. For all the value of science, it is not acceptable to just say "and one day the universe began - ****! - out of nothing everything we know was born".

Fair to say we will never know the truth. Human Race = Fox Mulder

 

[Malifice]

BTW, Malifice - I was just doing a quick read of something and it's worth pointing out something I missed earlier of yours - entropy cannot increase in an isolated system. Not the same as a closed system. I don't think it changes your point, it's just a technical thing.

Noted.

And sorry about the long absence - It started getting hot in here