Is there evidence that God does not exist?

[otaku]

Originally posted by Lestat
I just spent 3 hours writing a response to you Otaku....and when I posted it....got a message saying it was to long...and I lost the whole thing.

spewing!@

bummer eh?

 

[Fishfinger]

Originally posted by Lestat
The prophet Moses taught the world morality and ethics.



Must have been a nice bloke. Just a bit concerned about when he went up the mountain with some tablets - very suss. Hope it wasn't related to the dude who got stoned to death.

 

[lenny&carl]

Now now fishfinger, no stealing of Greg Fleet's material without attribution.

 

[Fishfinger]

Busted!

 

[otaku]

i know you lost three hours worth of post, Lestat, but dont let that discourage you.

or have you forgotten what you were going to say??

 

[Lestat]

Originally posted by otaku
i know you lost three hours worth of post, Lestat, but dont let that discourage you.

or have you forgotten what you were going to say??

Well it was actually more then 3 (it was one heluva long post).

I will get around to reposting it...just need to find the time. I'm sure that you'd appreciate that these 'jousts' of ours do take up a lot of time.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Lestat
Well it was actually more then 3 (it was one heluva long post).

I will get around to reposting it...just need to find the time. I'm sure that you'd appreciate that these 'jousts' of ours do take up a lot of time.

without a doubt - makes em more entertaining though.

Whenever you get the time - just keeping the post here, so you dont forget

 

[EssJayW]

O

Thanks for bumping my thread

 

[Roylion]

Still waiting for my reply as well.

 

[Lestat]

Sorry guys,

The new Championship manager (03/04) has been taking up my time lately(What a game) .

I'm rather addicted....to busy trying to win the Euro Champions Leauge for Arsenal...so sorry, but my soccer managerial career is taking priority at the moment.

I will get around to replying....but you'll have to be patient.

 

[Chiz]

Originally posted by EssJayW
I would like to know is there any evidence that God does not exist?

Not a shred. I have read through hundreds of posts on this thread from people who do not believe in God. All they are saying is that those who believe in God are fools without any evidence at all.

People have posted evidence of God's existence. Not to say that this is proof, but evidence nontheless, whether or not you accept it.

Originally posted by EssJayW
I would like to know is there any evidence that Jesus Christ did not or does not exist?

It's possible that Jesus never walked on this earth, but rather unlikely. Julius Ceasor lived even before Christ, yet we believe in him, so Jesus shouldn't be too hard to believe in, even if you don't believe he was/is God.

Now, in regards to Jesus being God walking on earth: If you read the gospels in the bible, you will find that Jesus fulfills over 300 prophesies written in the old-testament, which was and is the JEWISH religious book, not the Christian one. Unless Jesus was God, these fulfilled prophesies are a mathematical improbability, almost an impossibility. You don't have to believe what is in the bible, but if what is written about Jesus is true, then there is almost no doubt that he is God.

 

[Milkman]

Re: Re: Is there evidence that God does not exist?

Originally posted by Chiz
Not a shred. I have read through hundreds of posts on this thread from people who do not believe in God. All they are saying is that those who believe in God are fools without any evidence at all.

It's up to you to prove god does exist, it's not up to us to disprove it. If I tell you my cat talks, is that deemed to be fact until you can prove otherwise?

 

[Mr Q]

Re: Re: Re: Is there evidence that God does not exist?

Originally posted by Milkman
It's up to you to prove god does exist, it's not up to us to disprove it. If I tell you my cat talks, is that deemed to be fact until you can prove otherwise?

To be honest its just as much up to the atheists to prove God does not exist as the religious to prove that He does. The only stance that can be justifiably taken based upon the evidence of the world is agnosticism.

As for your cat, if you say it talks, I can't prove otherwise. I can say its unlikely based upon the evidence of all the other cats I've seen out there. However your cat might just be the one. It would be possible to prove that your cat talks by having it say something. However the fact that I've never heard it say anything is not evidence that it doesn't when I'm not there.

That said, I don't believe you have a talking cat until you prove it to me. People who don't believe in God have that same right - however your disbelief does not make it not possibly true. The difference is that there is a solid body of evidence that cats can't talk. There is no evidence available that indicates anything either way on the existance of God.

Originally posted by Chiz
People have posted evidence of God's existence. Not to say that this is proof, but evidence nontheless, whether or not you accept it.

Evidence is pointless unless used with the aim of trying to provide proof (see the cat point above). Your argument is specious, as nothing anyone posts here constitutes any evidence of the sort that would stand up in a court of law or on a scientific basis. Basically most of the "evidence" for the existance of God could be summed up as hearsay or at best circumstantial.

For instance, pointing at the statistical unlikelihood of the world around us is not proof of God despite the frequency of its use; the universe is a big place and who knows what statistical unlikelihoods might pop up around something that huge. Similarly pointing at war and pestilence is not proof that God does not exist.

Anyone who uses any of the above has jumped from inference to proof, without the step requiring hard evidence. In scientific terms, God is a theory where the evidence is entirely inconclusive, and hence God is outside the bounds of science. People who attempt to use science to rationalise religion and vice-versa (ie Creation Science) are talking out of their nether regions.

(FWIW I tend to believe that God exists)

 

[Roylion]

Re: Re: Is there evidence that God does not exist?

Originally posted by Chiz
People have posted evidence of God's existence. Not to say that this is proof, but evidence nontheless, whether or not you accept it.

I'm not an athiest and prefer to think of myself as agnostic (in that I truly do not know whether there is a Supreme Being or Supreme Beings in existance, but I've read through this thread and I'm yet to read of any hard evidence that the said "Supreme Being" exists.

I don't regard the Bible as evidence. I could as easily argue that the Greek pantheon (Zeus, Poseidon, Hades et al) exists because we have a body of ancient work, such as the Iliad and the Odyssey that describes them for example. Same with any pantheon of gods that exists in any number of civilsations.

Originally posted by Chiz
It's possible that Jesus never walked on this earth, but rather unlikely. Julius Ceasor lived even before Christ, yet we believe in him, so Jesus shouldn't be too hard to believe in, even if you don't believe he was/is God.

Yes but why do we believe in Julius Caesar? We have coins, statues, contemporary records other contemporary writings that mention him. We have ancient records of the laws he promulgated. We even have works published by Julius Caesar himself, such as his account of the conquest of Gaul. That appears to be several bit of hard evidence from a number of different contemporary sources, that suggests that Julius Caesar did in fact exist.

On the other hand what record of Jesus do we have? The Books of the New Testament and also other works which were clearly written after the time Jesus was said to have existed. Otherwise there is absolutely no contemporary record. Other near contemporary records, such as Josephus, that mention Jesus are considered by some modern scholars to have been insertions.

Originally posted by Chiz
Now, in regards to Jesus being God walking on earth: If you read the gospels in the bible, you will find that Jesus fulfills over 300 prophesies written in the old-testament, which was and is the JEWISH religious book, not the Christian one.

How convenient. The only record we have of Jesus, is a record that attempt to show that Jesus is the Son of God. Considering that the authors probably knew the Old Testament books well, of course Jesus would have been made to fulfil the old prophecies. The Jews certainly don't regard Jesus as having fulfilled the prophecies, they believe the Messiah is yet to come.

Originally posted by Chiz
Unless Jesus was God, these fulfilled prophesies are a mathematical improbability, almost an impossibility. You don't have to believe what is in the bible, but if what is written about Jesus is true, then there is almost no doubt that he is God.

IF it is true. If I don't believe what is written in the Bible (and I have my doubts that it is the Word of God), then no I don't beleive what is written about Jesus is true.

 

[brassmonkey]

Re: Re: Re: Is there evidence that God does not exist?

Originally posted by Roylion


Yes but why do we believe in Julius Caesar? We have coins, statues, contemporary records other contemporary writings that mention him. We have ancient records of the laws he promulgated. We even have works published by Julius Caesar himself, such as his account of the conquest of Gaul. That appears to be several bit of hard evidence from a number of different contemporary sources, that suggests that Julius Caesar did in fact exist.

The Romans held very good census records when they ruled Israel. They have records of Jesus's existance. We also know for a fact that he was crucified by Pontius Pilate under orders of the Sanhedrin(Jewish high council of the time). No historians will tell you that a human named Jesus from Nazereth didnt exist. Whether he is the son of god is another story. I believe he is, but there isnt any hard evidence for that.

 

[otaku]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is there evidence that God does not exist?

Originally posted by brassmonkey
... but there isnt any hard evidence for that.

and that is the whole point of the argument

 

[brassmonkey]

Of the big argument, but i was reffering to the assertion that Jesus never existed

 

[otaku]

The fact of the matter is this:

there is no evidence that god exists, yet most religious people expect to have their belief taken seriously.

Whats up with that?

If you stood up and proclaimed that you seriously believed in Santa, or elves, or the tooth fairy, you would be laughed at. People expect to be able to declaim that god exists, yet provide no evidence or proof, and still demand that people respect that opinion?

 

[EssJayW]

Originally posted by otaku
The fact of the matter is this:

there is no evidence that god exists, yet most religious people expect to have their belief taken seriously.

Whats up with that?

If you stood up and proclaimed that you seriously believed in Santa, or elves, or the tooth fairy, you would be laughed at. People expect to be able to declaim that god exists, yet provide no evidence or proof, and still demand that people respect that opinion?

In my house you believe in Santa or you dont get presents.

 

[Frodo]

Originally posted by otaku
The fact of the matter is this:

there is no evidence that god exists, yet most religious people expect to have their belief taken seriously.

Whats up with that?

If you stood up and proclaimed that you seriously believed in Santa, or elves, or the tooth fairy, you would be laughed at. People expect to be able to declaim that god exists, yet provide no evidence or proof, and still demand that people respect that opinion?

Many people have experienced God but can't prove it.

As creation is not really doubtable it is common sense that creation is taken seriously as opposed to Santa, or elves, or the tooth fairy, that would be laughed at as they are known to be fantasies. There are many scientists and philopsophers that have been ridiculed because they couldn't prove their theories, which eventuated in time, but the opinions were mostly respected too. The earth being flat and the sun revolving around earth were two hard held convictions by people and the majority ridiculed the round earth and revolving earth beliefs. Even Freud's beliefs were ridiculed yet they are the basis of modern day psychology. Yet again, people respected his opinion.

 

[Katthawk]

This post contains my opinion only.

What's wrong with having an open mind? Why is there a need to try and prove or disprove someone else's opinion if it is not impinging on your beliefs, or harming you or anyone else in any way?

Discussions about why someone believes what they do is good. But to simply throw the idea that just because evidence is not obvious that the belief is not real is bordering on arrogance. Who are you ( that means anyone of course) to say that you have a saner mind just because you believe only in what exists in solid matter and that anyone who believes in 'God' is somehow deluded just because there is no absolute evidence?

Damn, I said I wasn't going to think today. Sorry I couldn't find any evidence or sources for my opinion. Unless you want to cut my brain up and dissect that.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Frodo
Many people have experienced God but can't prove it.

and why is this?

people who claim to see/hear things are considered delusional. why should people who claim to experience god be considered to be any different?

As creation is not really doubtable it is common sense that creation is taken seriously as opposed to Santa, or elves, or the tooth fairy, that would be laughed at as they are known to be fantasies.

creation (as in the world and universe we live in) is not doubtable, but the supposed creator (who no one can prove to exist) is. We have as much literature on Santa and the tooth fairy as we do on god.

There are many scientists and philopsophers that have been ridiculed because they couldn't prove their theories, which eventuated in time, but the opinions were mostly respected too. The earth being flat and the sun revolving around earth were two hard held convictions by people and the majority ridiculed the round earth and revolving earth beliefs. Even Freud's beliefs were ridiculed yet they are the basis of modern day psychology. Yet again, people respected his opinion.

how can they be respected and ridiculed at the same time? These people had proof of their ideas (in the case of the round earth and the rotation of the the earth). The main opposition to those ideas you listed was (surprise surprise) the church.

Now why do you think that is?

could it be to do with the fact that an uneducated populous is easier to control?

 

[Frodo]

Originally posted by otaku
and why is this?

people who claim to see/hear things are considered delusional. why should people who claim to experience god be considered to be any different?



creation (as in the world and universe we live in) is not doubtable, but the supposed creator (who no one can prove to exist) is. We have as much literature on Santa and the tooth fairy as we do on god.



how can they be respected and ridiculed at the same time? These people had proof of their ideas (in the case of the round earth and the rotation of the the earth). The main opposition to those ideas you listed was (surprise surprise) the church.

Now why do you think that is?

could it be to do with the fact that an uneducated populous is easier to control? [/B]

1) There are delusional people but we are talking about millions from differing religions all with the same delusion. There is a mamoth more literature on God than any other subject on earth.

2) Respected as a person with a particular opinion ridiculed. That is common

3) Control of the uneducated and brainwashing are the main tools of religions.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Frodo
1) There are delusional people but we are talking about millions from differing religions all with the same delusion. There is a mamoth more literature on God than any other subject on earth.

same delusion?? i think not - explain why some people seem to hear god telling them to kill prostitutes or murder homosexuals (just like the bible states you should).

Why do you have different sects of a religion killing each other trying to prove their god is the real one.

2) Respected as a person with a particular opinion ridiculed. That is common

3) Control of the uneducated and brainwashing are the main tools of religions.

so, religion (being the mouthpiece of god) is corrupt and manipulative. Says a lot for your supposed creator doesnt it?

 

[Milkman]

Originally posted by Katthawk
Discussions about why someone believes what they do is good. But to simply throw the idea that just because evidence is not obvious that the belief is not real is bordering on arrogance.

Katthawk, did I tell you I have a talking cat?