News Kev blames no forward thinking

[Ben the Gooner]

No question there were huge problems with the football department and lack of funding thereof.

However, the point remains that we wasted 5-6 drafts under Sheedy (who had a big say in recruiting) and are currently suffering for it.

Results are a lot better once Dodoro had control.

 

[WeAreEssendon]

Probably not as much as some people are blaming him for, BTG

Was it Sheedy's fault that the club breached the salary cap, losing valuable draft picks?

Sheeds then had his hands tied with re signings due to the Mercuri deal. According to Sheedy, that decision was never run passed the football department.

There was also salary cap pressure, due to the fact the club took a punt on veterens list rulings which never came into place. This gamble also came from board level, according to Robert Shaw.

So, you have an exodus of players. You also have no picks or late picks to replace them with. And a board that seemed to have a tight fist when it came to football dept spending.

Sheedy is criticised for picking recycled players over gambling on youth. Yet requests to spend money on recruiting young talent, at least in the case of Marty Clarke, went unheeded.

Looking at that hypothetical team, I'd say Sheedy still believed we would still be in a rebuilding phase and Jackson expected success much earlier. Similar to the rumor re Hardwick V Knights. And wasn't it Jackson who put in place the "policy" of winning a flag every seven years?

We had drafting stuff ups and odd ball project players throughout Sheedy's career. But ultimately, he got results. I just don't see how the same people who call for less criticism of our club as it stands now, can pot former club legends and our history.

Beautifully said.

Easiest cop out is to blame Sheeds on the mess now and completely ignore the drafting of Skipworth, Williams, Atkinson.

I'd be happy as a pig in shit if Sheeds was still hear because we'd have Cyril running around the next 10 years and I'd pay good money to see the kid tear it up in the red and black.

No matter how many oddball things Sheeds did he was still ruthless when a big decision was to be made. He is on record as saying he would have tried to get Judd by trading Lloyd. Sheeds was ready to make deep cuts again. He knew what needed to be fixed. Knights has pussy footed around for 3 years and it's like we are starting all over again from this week. Another 3 years, stick with us we'll come good.. we hope, we think.. hopefully we have the right processess.. we have powerpoint presentations.

Sick to my guts that a successful club champion who ticked every box possible box except for bloody powerpoint did not get the job. I don't know how Knights can come across well in an interview when every time he speaks in the media it is damn cringeworthy.

Muppets the lot of em.

 

[yodellinhank]

Saying we would've picked player X because the club we traded the pick for got player X is a ridiculous concept. We've had some handy players come off the rookie list and get drafted late, who's to say we wouldn't have unearthed another 1 or 2? We'll never know.

Yes drafting is something of a gamble and our drafting around this period was ordinary, but we would've given ourselves a better chance for the long term. All Sheedy did was cover a shark bite with a bandaid which saw us limp to a couple of 1st round finals exits and then proceed nowhere.

Its why i tried to include many of the options, to try to provide the common school of where everyone believed players to be at. People point out the recycled guys we took, they never mention the late picks we took who didn't make it.

The truth is we did invest in the draft. We took players like Austin Lucy, Paul Thomas, Cory McGrath, Jordan Bannister, Darren Walsh, Sam Hunt, Marc Bullen, the list goes on of blokes who weren't up to it. Blokes we didn't miss Sellwood or Rioli for. Just guys who were taken with the picks we had available.

Yet the decision to recruit the Mal Michaels of this world is criticised because they could actually get games?

 

[TheGodDelusion]

Does anyone know the last time Essendon had a top goal scorer below 30 goals???? (i think) 1929.

1921. Been plenty of years where it's been in the low 30's though. Even last year Lloyd won it with 35.

That said, this year we've kicked 189 goals for the season compared with 303 last year. At this rate we'll be 25 odd goals off last years total, about half of which comes down to being slightly less accurate in 2010.

 

[TheGodDelusion]

Yet the decision to recruit the Mal Michaels of this world is criticised because they could actually get games?

More the likes of Campo, Zantuck, Murphy et al. Perhaps there were young guys who he could have played instead of these...

 

[The House]

And this is the paradigm that frustrates the hell out of me. Who are these Youth players he was supposed to invest in? Oh that's right, the fictitious gun right under our noses that nobody else picked...

Zantuck: Pick 6 in the PSD '04. Dammit, we missed out on Elijah Ware, Matthew Smith, Leigh Ryswyk. The next 3 players chosen in PSD/Rookie drafts. Certainly came back to haunt us those...

Alvey: Part of a trade for Jacobs. A cherry on top of a trade we had to make. A trade we had to make possibly because of a 5 year Mercuri contract reportedly signed by Jackson without consultation with the football dept. Actually a young player when we got him.

Allen: We traded pick 57 in 03. Carlton took Ricky Mott. Boy are our faces red.

Camporeale: 4 in the 05 PSD. Overlooked the likes of Matthew White, Ben Fixter, Cameron Thurley. The crows picked up Porplyzia the pick before our next, they have a habit of good late picks. Wonder how much they spent on recruitment during the same period?

Murphy: In a trade which typifies how badly we did during this era, we lost the great Cory McGrath who went on to have such a fantastic career.

Cole: Collingwood obtained champion footballer Ryan Cook with the pick we spent on the Cole trade. Cleve Hughes, Wayde Mills, Garick Ibbotson, Dylan Addison and Matt Riggio all taken around that mark before Ben McKinley got selected.

Salmon: Taken the draft after we had played in a Grand Final, and our number 1 ruckman retired.

Not all that stupid when you think about it really.

I think you're missing the whole point....

.....we would have
a) recruited more young players with potential and
b) been playing and develoing younger players that were already on the list.

Instead he picked a bunch of older players to get him to another contract. For him to talk about FORWARD THINKING after he did this was hypocritical, yet not out of character.

 

[yodellinhank]

No question there were huge problems with the football department and lack of funding thereof.

However, the point remains that we wasted 5-6 drafts under Sheedy (who had a big say in recruiting) and are currently suffering for it.

Results are a lot better once Dodoro had control.

The draft was also way more speculative back in the day, IMO. And to be honest, I'm happy with the vast majority of the drafting we have done. Think we only really wasted 1996. And look how that turned out.


You get bad picks in good drafts, good picks in bad drafts and intangibles such as Ramanauskas, it makes it bloody hard. Especially that last one.

 

[WeAreEssendon]

I think you're missing the whole point....

.....we would have
a) recruited more young players with potential and
b) been playing and develoing younger players that were already on the list.

Instead he picked a bunch of older players to get him to another contract. For him to talk about FORWARD THINKING after he did this was hypocritical, yet not out of character.

What you're actually saying is you wanted Sheeds to do a Melbourne or Carlton or Richmond and finish bottom 4 for a sustained period of time so we can accumulate top 10 draft picks.

It's not the philosophy of the current coach or the current administration and it's not the philosophy of any club worth their salt.

 

[yodellinhank]

I think you're missing the whole point....

.....we would have
a) recruited more young players with potential and
b) been playing and develoing younger players that were already on the list.

Instead he picked a bunch of older players to get him to another contract. For him to talk about FORWARD THINKING after he did this was hypocritical, yet not out of character.

a) players who didn't make it as youngsters at other clubs, or players who went bush and played in some local league in obscurity?

b) The younger players, who were also taken with late picks thanks to both our ladder position and draft penalties, were no good. Thats the issue.

We drafted Paul Salmon. We traded for Matthew Allan. This was to the detriment of who, Lauchlan McKinnon, Tristan Cartledge?

You honestly believe that the club didn't look at the players available, and say to themselves "You know what, I doubt any of these kids can make it". ??

It's just too easy to say we should have took a punt on kids, and not put forward any names of people we missed. Add Joe Bloggs, Jimmy Green and Tim Smith to the already extensive list of players who didn't make it.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Sheeds is in no place to talk about lack of forward thinking.

FFS, as much as I love him, it's mostly his fault that we're in this situation right now.

Exactly, Sheedy is more to blame for anyone for this mess. Matty Knights has been made a scapegoat by a lot of Essendon supporters in my opinion. If Essendon get rid of him, it will create more instability and have a negative impact of the Culture of the Essendon footy club.

Sacking Matty Knights isn't going to fix the fact that Stanton is a perennial underachiever, or Ryder can't take the next step and become an A grader. A Large part is up to the players at the end of the day

 

[Kong]

Think we only really wasted 1996. And look how that turned out.

2001?

It still cuts me up.

 

[The House]

What you're actually saying is you wanted Sheeds to do a Melbourne or Carlton or Richmond and finish bottom 4 for a sustained period of time so we can accumulate top 10 draft picks.

It's not the philosophy of the current coach or the current administration and it's not the philosophy of any club worth their salt.

No, what i'm saying is Sheeds did that for his last 3 years without even having a youth policy.We were bottom 4 for his last 3 years right???

It hurt our club badly over a long period of time.

Thus, for Sheedy to be taking pot shots at a guy who's been at the helme for only 2 and a half years for a lack of forward planning is hypocritical, and i suspect as usual, designed to direct much needed attention apon himself.

 

[yodellinhank]

Exactly, Sheedy is more to blame for anyone for this mess. Matty Knights has been made a scapegoat by a lot of Essendon supporters in my opinion. If Essendon get rid of him, it will create more instability and have a negative impact of the Culture of the Essendon footy club.

Sacking Matty Knights isn't going to fix the fact that Stanton is a perennial underachiever, or Ryder can't take the next step and become an A grader. A Large part is up to the players at the end of the day

Can't agree with this, given the way the list has been handled since Sheedy left. Knights/the club has had 3 post-seasons since then to make drastic changes to the list and the game plan.

The game style has changed, the list not much at all.

We took 6 picks in 07, 5 in 08 (one recycled), and 5 in 09 (one forced upon us by McPhee). Hardly looks like the changes that have gone on at Richmond. If the inherited list was no good, then maybe we should've seen more action.

Time for Knights to take ownership of the list. You cite Stanton as an underachiever and Ryder as not taking the next step, so if thats the case, you trade those players. You don't re-sign them. Not that I'd agree with that, but I don't believe it can't be used as an excuse for Knights.

 

[The House]

a) players who didn't make it as youngsters at other clubs, or players who went bush and played in some local league in obscurity?

b) The younger players, who were also taken with late picks thanks to both our ladder position and draft penalties, were no good. Thats the issue.

We drafted Paul Salmon. We traded for Matthew Allan. This was to the detriment of who, Lauchlan McKinnon, Tristan Cartledge?

You honestly believe that the club didn't look at the players available, and say to themselves "You know what, I doubt any of these kids can make it". ??

It's just too easy to say we should have took a punt on kids, and not put forward any names of people we missed. Add Joe Bloggs, Jimmy Green and Tim Smith to the already extensive list of players who didn't make it.

As i've said, we were consistantly a bottom 4 side at the end under Sheeds, WITHOUT a youth policy.

You dont seem to understand that considering we were terrible due to SHEEDY'S FPRWARD PLANNING, there is nothing to be gained by playing old players, and plenty of potential gain by trying out youth.

You're argument is based purely on the 2 things....

1. the assumption that we wouldn't have picked any good young-uns with the available spots Sheedy clogged up with busted old players (most of whome clearly didn't work, and were never going to long term)
2. the young players on the list wouldn't have benifited from having more senior opportunities.

Even if you were somehow correct on point 2, the fact remains we would have discovered that some of our younger selections weren't up to it earlier than we did, as they would have been playing earlier.....therefore we would have also drafted their replacements earlier and been back on track earlier.

No matter which way you look at it, Sheedy's lack of forward planning has left our list with a lot of years of repair to get back on track....all on the back of years of bottom 4 action under him anyways.

As much as anything that makes his claim of Knights lacking forward planning, simply laughable.

 

[WeAreEssendon]

No, what i'm saying is Sheeds did that for his last 3 years without even having a youth policy.We were bottom 4 for his last 3 years right???

It hurt our club badly over a long period of time.

Thus, for Sheedy to be taking pot shots at a guy who's been at the helme for only 2 and a half years for a lack of forward planning is hypocritical, and i suspect as usual, designed to direct much needed attention apon himself.

And he played a lot of kids when they weren't injured. Dempsey for one. Monfries was in straight away. Slattery, Ryder, Jetta, Davey, Houli etc, etc.

Absolutely no difference to what is happening today with the likes of Welsh, McVeigh. It's only injuries that have forced Knights hand to play the kids. In Knights first year he put out very experienced sides until we got smacked with injuries. Where was his plan to play the kids then?

Why didn't he go that way from day 1? Where's this clear vision he claims to have?

 

[The House]

And he played a lot of kids when they weren't injured. Dempsey for one. Monfries was in straight away. Slattery, Ryder, Jetta, Davey, Houli etc, etc.

Absolutely no difference to what is happening today with the likes of Welsh, McVeigh. It's only injuries that have forced Knights hand to play the kids. In Knights first year he put out very experienced sides until we got smacked with injuries. Where was his plan to play the kids then?

Why didn't he go that way from day 1? Where's this clear vision he claims to have?

You can't turn over half a list in one draft....

How many players did Knights turn over in year 1, 2 &3 if anyone can find the stat???

I'd be very surprised if he hasn't turned over somewhere in the vacinity of 24 out of the 38 senior players Sheedy left him in 3 seasons, which if i'm right proves my point on just how much work was needed on the list.

 

[yodellinhank]

As i've said, we were consistantly a bottom 4 side at the end under Sheeds, WITHOUT a youth policy.

So consistent that it happened twice. One of those with 8 wins. We sat in 8th spot the week after Sheedy got sacked.

You dont seem to understand that considering we were terrible due to SHEEDY'S FPRWARD PLANNING, there is nothing to be gained by playing old players, and plenty of potential gain by trying out youth.

You don't seem to understand that players don't come out of thin air and must be obtained through the draft.

You're argument is based purely on the 2 things....

1. the assumption that we wouldn't have picked any good young-uns with the available spots Sheedy clogged up with busted old players (most of whome clearly didn't work, and were never going to long term)

I'll give you the tip. We missed Swan, Medhurst or Miller amongst 13 or so players who didn't make it, for Paul Salmon. We drafted Salmon to replace a retiring ruckman the year we finished 27pts away from a premiership. That aside, there was SFA out there we obviously missed.

2. the young players on the list wouldn't have benifited from having more senior opportunities.

And yet didn't make it at other clubs?

Even if you were somehow correct on point 2, the fact remains we would have discovered that some of our younger selections weren't up to it earlier than we did, as they would have been playing earlier.....therefore we would have also drafted their replacements earlier and been back on track earlier.

Ah, I see. Tanking.

No matter which way you look at it, Sheedy's lack of forward planning has left our list with a lot of years of repair to get back on track....all on the back of years of bottom 4 action under him anyways.

Or his realism and inability to invent people who simply did not exist.

As much as anything that makes his claim of Knights lacking forward planning, simply laughable.

You seem pretty angry with Sheeds. You must be angry with Knights: Recycled duds (Hayden Skipworth, Mark Williams), Perceived favorites (Atko) and supposed young "guns" who can't get opportunities (Houli), players who aren't played in position (Myers), projects that never worked (J Williams)....

 

[WeAreEssendon]

You can't turn over half a list in one draft....

How many players did Knights turn over in year 1, 2 &3 if anyone can find the stat???

I'd be very surprised if he hasn't turned over somewhere in the vacinity of 24 out of the 38 senior players Sheedy left him in 3 seasons, which if i'm right proves my point on just how much work was needed on the list.

In 05 Sheeds drafted - Ryder, Dempsey, Neagle, Lonergan, Lucy and traded for Cole. Heath Hocking was picked up as a rookie.

In 06 Sheeds drafted - Gumbleton, Jetta, Hislop, Davey, Reimers, Houli. He gave up Solomon to get more draft picks.

Knights has done similar numbers to the above. No anymore by any stretch and if you look at last year with only taking 4 in the draft then we were a bit conservative.

 

[yodellinhank]

You can't turn over half a list in one draft....

Totally and whole heartedly agree.

How many players did Knights turn over in year 1, 2 &3 if anyone can find the stat???

I'd be very surprised if he hasn't turned over somewhere in the vacinity of 24 out of the 38 senior players Sheedy left him in 3 seasons, which if i'm right proves my point on just how much work was needed on the list.

2007: Ins - Myers, Pears, Daniher, Hooker, Bellchambers, Williams = 6

2008: Ins - Hurley, Zaharakis, Still, Slattery, Skipworth = 5

2009: Ins - Melksham, Carlisle, Colyer, Long, Hardingham = 5

16 players. Also, keep in mind that includes Hird, Lloyd, Lucas, Ramanauskas, J Johnson, Peverill, Mal Michael retirements.

Bradley, Hislop, Mark Johnson and Andrew Lovett are the "Sheedy" players he has offloaded/cut that I can think of off the top of my head. Its not as if he has stepped in, said "Sheedy's list is no good" and done a total rebuild...

 

[Yoda_]

So..

2007 OUTS:

Retired: James Hird
Mark Bolton
Chris Heffernan
Scott Camporeale

Delisted:
Mark Johnson
Keplar Bradley
Richard Cole
Lachlan McKinnon

Listings:
Adam Ramanauskas (Rookie List Upgrade)
Heath Hocking (Rookie List Upgrade)
Darcy Daniher (Father Son Draftee - Pick 39)

2008 OUTS:

Retired:
Adam Ramanauskas
Jason Johnson
Mal Michael

Delisted:
Damian Peverill
Andrew Lee
Courtenay Johns
Tom Hislop
Dean Dick
Danny Chartess

Listings:
Jarrod Atkinson: (Rookie List Upgrade)
[Pick 39 - Traded for Brent Prismall]

2009 Outs:
Retirees: Matthew Lloyd
Scott Lucas
Hayden Skipworth

Delisted:

John Williams
Bryce Carroll
Thomas German
Kade Klemke
Rhys Magin

So there are the players in the time that Knights has been in charge has seen fall to the wayside..

Interesting a few of the names their really..

 

[Kong]

So there are the players in the time that Knights has been in charge has seen fall to the wayside..

Interesting a few of the names their really..

There's not one name on that list that I would want playing for us now.

Well, Hird, obviously.

 

[yodellinhank]

Another way of looking at it, is to take last weeks team...

Dyson, Hooker, Hocking
McVeigh, Welsh, Reimers
Jetta, Watson, Dempsey
Stanton, Hurley, Monfries
Davey, Neagle, Zaharakis

Ryder, Winderlich, Lonergan

Colyer, Lovett-Murray, Howlett, Bellchambers

Pears out injured...

 

[The House]

fellas...firstly there's no anger towards sheedy from me.
i've said many times i am eternally grateful to sheeds for the success he brought us.

and my opinion of knights is in no way related to sheedy.

the point is, sheedy was a very ordinary forward planner in his latter years as he not only recruited an unusually high number of recycled players with an usually low success rate, but he persevered far too long with spuds like henneman, bolton, mcalister, johns, bradley etc.

it's not really a point i intend to argue any further, however it is as clear as day that sheeds lost his edge in his last few years, and clearly left knights a list in which most of it's quality players where past their best......

......this is by very definition hypocritical, and unfortunately consistant with the manner in which sheedy has conducted himself in the media over the last few years....
.....he needs to pull his head in before his opinions become viewed as nothing more than akermanis like, desperate headline grabs, spoken purely to remain relevant.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

And this is the paradigm that frustrates the hell out of me. Who are these Youth players he was supposed to invest in? Oh that's right, the fictitious gun right under our noses that nobody else picked...

Zantuck: Pick 6 in the PSD '04. Dammit, we missed out on Elijah Ware, Matthew Smith, Leigh Ryswyk. The next 3 players chosen in PSD/Rookie drafts. Certainly came back to haunt us those...

Alvey: Part of a trade for Jacobs. A cherry on top of a trade we had to make. A trade we had to make possibly because of a 5 year Mercuri contract reportedly signed by Jackson without consultation with the football dept. Actually a young player when we got him.

Allen: We traded pick 57 in 03. Carlton took Ricky Mott. Boy are our faces red.

Camporeale: 4 in the 05 PSD. Overlooked the likes of Matthew White, Ben Fixter, Cameron Thurley. The crows picked up Porplyzia the pick before our next, they have a habit of good late picks. Wonder how much they spent on recruitment during the same period?

Murphy: In a trade which typifies how badly we did during this era, we lost the great Cory McGrath who went on to have such a fantastic career.

Cole: Collingwood obtained champion footballer Ryan Cook with the pick we spent on the Cole trade. Cleve Hughes, Wayde Mills, Garick Ibbotson, Dylan Addison and Matt Riggio all taken around that mark before Ben McKinley got selected.

Salmon: Taken the draft after we had played in a Grand Final, and our number 1 ruckman retired.

Not all that stupid when you think about it really.

You can't just compare with the draft choice a club took next or with our lost pick. You have no idea who our recruiters would have picked up. Who was available on the rookie lists?, full remaining picks? is what you need to look at. We could have plucked another Lovett. Lost opportunities of experience for younger players.
(btw you mention Ibbotson for the Cole trade, we would have been rapt with that).

Salmon, Murphy, Allan, Zantuck they were never going to win us a flag. Mal Michael was just a filler to keep us competitive and for Sheeds to hang on for his job. We just didn't have the team when these guys were brought in. What was the point of just being a slightly competitive middle of the road team? These decisions were not about creating our next premiership team.

Let's not even mention the ridiculous faith he had in guys like Henneman, Johns, Bolton towards the end, bringing back Heffernan after an average stint at Melbourne.

I was a fan of Sheeds but he lost the plot last few years.

 

[Bomber57]

Love reading all the blame game that's going on for the current position we fine ourselves in, why don't we blame the federal labor government for it, what is needed is hard decision to be made, but at EFC no one has the balls to do that so we will just keep going around in circles and falling behind everyone else until someone turns on the lights.