News Kev blames no forward thinking

[Longy413]

These are just the class players. There's plenty more in there. The decision to trade out picks in '99 proved pretty costly given that it cost us crack at a couple of relatively handy players in Chapman and Ling...

Those picks we traded out to the AFL who took them off us for breaching the salary cap?

Followed Essendon long?

Re your second point, Bradley is merely an example of our drafting of that period of time which was shocking.

Bradley, at the time was clearly a worthy number 6 pick.
It is a hindsight mistake, not a drafting mistake.

Not one club would have passed on him at six. His first year was also very positive.

Are you happy with our recruiting between '97 and 2006?

1998 was fine.
1999 we got Hille and Rioli. Barnes was a Premiership player. Pass.

2003 we added Stanton, McPhee, Cupido, Lovett, Dyson, NLM. Wasn't too bad.


Few clubs got two players the quality of Watson and Winderlich in 2002. It was a bad draft. Pass. Just.

2005 and 2006 were fine. At the moment.

The rest were pretty average and we should have done better.

You're right in a lack of star talent, but we don't know yet whether that talent will come from 2005-2006 drafts.
I wouldn't write off the whole lot.

 

[Yoda_]

I think that after the second round, it really starts to come down to hit and miss..


Who would have picked that Cale Hooker would be as good as he is now, coming from a pick 40ish (round their??), in a weak draft when so many other players around him have falled to the wayside..

I think people expect first even second round draft picks to be guns..

This is showing right now with one David Myers..

 

[Kong]

2003 we added Stanton, McPhee, Cupido, Lovett, Dyson, NLM. Wasn't too bad.

McPhee and Cupido were 2002.

 

[yaco55]

Rodan's also near-impossible to tackle and wins many a hard ball. He's a rare player of brute strength and explosive speed.

Davey has only the latter.

I would've thought Alwyn was a poor man's Aaron, if anything.

Rodan is an interesting case.

Twice the Morrish medallist who was overlooked in his first draft year and picked in the 70's in his second year.

Spent 4 or 5 years at Richmond, was delisted and then selected in the ND by Port Power.

 

[Longy413]

McPhee and Cupido were 2002.

Yeah sorry, right you are.

Adds a bit of strength to probably the worst draft in the modern game.

Cupido, Harvey and Lovett could have all been elite footballers. What a waste.

 

[The House]

Some answers in bold.

It's regrettable that we weren't able to get better players from 97-03. We finished high on the ladder during these years, and weren't able to make the right trades. The 99 penalties killed us, and what happened to the best talent we drafted during this time (Rama) could not have been foreseen.

There was some bad picks, but also bad luck.

Good to see someone actually put some thought into a post, rather than simply say we did poorly based on no evidence. I appreciate it

i've given you plenty of evidence, yet you still fail to understand that sheeds poor drafting was only part of the lack of forward planning.....

,,,,the ridiculous amount of games he put into players that clearly either weren't up to it, or weren't sensible long term choices was very damaging to us long term.
it continually denied many young players an opportunity to develop by playing senior football, in favour of playing bolton, henneman, cole, alvey, allen, mcalister, johns, peverill [for about his last 2 years], murphy, michael, camporeale etc etc etc.....

.....i've done this with little thought of names and i'm sure there are quite a few more eg's that could slot in there....bam, zantuck just popped into my head.

you need to open your thinking to realise the evidence you so crave of sheedy's lack of forward thinking extends far beyond the draft.

it was not simply bad luck that the list sheedy left for knights, was a list in which most of our best players were well past their best...it was bad managemnt......otherwise known as poor forward planning, the very thing sheedy has publicly bagged knights for after just 2.5 years into his role..............starting to see the hypocrisy now...

 

[Kong]

Yeah sorry, right you are.

Adds a bit of strength to probably the worst draft in the modern game.

Cupido, Harvey and Lovett could have all been elite footballers. What a waste.

Cupido would be just about the biggest waste of talent I've seen, at least from our club.

 

[The House]

Cupido would be just about the biggest waste of talent I've seen, at least from our club.

big hello to dean rioli here too....played some of the best quarters of footy i've ever seen literally, yet never cared enough to bother getting in the condition required to consistently play good afl footy........

 

[TheDon35]

Those picks we traded out to the AFL who took them off us for breaching the salary cap?

Followed Essendon long?




Bradley, at the time was clearly a worthy number 6 pick.
It is a hindsight mistake, not a drafting mistake.

Not one club would have passed on him at six. His first year was also very positive.

Again, reffer to the original post regarding Sheedy having a crack at our forward list management when his midfield list management was a disaster for ten years.


1998 was fine.
1999 we got Hille and Rioli. Barnes was a Premiership player. Pass.

2003 we added Stanton, McPhee, Cupido, Lovett, Dyson, NLM. Wasn't too bad.


Few clubs got two players the quality of Watson and Winderlich in 2002. It was a bad draft. Pass. Just.

2005 and 2006 were fine. At the moment.

The rest were pretty average and we should have done better.

You're right in a lack of star talent, but we don't know yet whether that talent will come from 2005-2006 drafts.
I wouldn't write off the whole lot.

Pick 33 was traded to Hawthorn for Jonathon Robran... Been following Essendon long? Still could have had Ling. I'm only mentioning the midfielders with refference to my original post so the list could have been alot longer on missed class. Mis read on Chapman.

Again, you're missing the overall point. We weren't the big winner in any draft. Our drafting was ordinary at best for 10 years, subsequently, we find ourselves in this position.

Are you happy with the recruiting post Judkins / pre Sheedy leaving?

Of course you don't write off the whole lot. I haven't. It's just that their have been far far too many misses than hits, subsequently, we've been ordinary for a long time.

 

[Longy413]

Pick 33 was traded to Hawthorn for Jonathon Robran... Been following Essendon long?

We were banned from the first two rounds of the draft.
We wouldn't have had the pick.

You should also recall, Ling was drafted as a full forward.

Again, you're missing the overall point. We weren't the big winner in any draft. Our drafting was ordinary at best for 10 years, subsequently, we find ourselves in this position.

I'm not missing the point, I said our drafting was bad.

Are you happy with the recruiting post Judkins / pre Sheedy leaving?

I'm happy with 2005 and 2006.
I'm happy to recognise that 1998-2001 our job wasn't made easy for us due to on field success.

I'm happy to look into it a little deeper than to just blame Sheeds. I did say earlier that he is largely responsible and the buck stops with him, but there is a lot more to it than just one man.

Of course you don't write off the whole lot. I haven't. It's just that their have been far far too many misses than hits, subsequently, we've been ordinary for a long time.

Of course, but there are misses because we made the wrong decision (James Davies) and there are hindsight misses that were the right decision at the time (Harvey and Bradley).




One thing a lot of people are missing, is when Sheedy challenged our forward thinking, he wasn't talking about our planning for the future. He challenged our lack of forward structure.

He wasn't having a crack out our drafting or development of young players.
He simply believes that we underestimated the loss of Lloyd, Lucas, McPhee, Lovett and to a lesser extent Skipworth and that we overestimated the impact of Neagle, Gumby, Hurley etc.

The article was about our FORWARD LINE not our FORWARD PLANNING.

 

[The House]

We were banned from the first two rounds of the draft.
We wouldn't have had the pick.

You should also recall, Ling was drafted as a full forward.



I'm not missing the point, I said our drafting was bad.



I'm happy with 2005 and 2006.
I'm happy to recognise that 1998-2001 our job wasn't made easy for us due to on field success.

I'm happy to look into it a little deeper than to just blame Sheeds. I did say earlier that he is largely responsible and the buck stops with him, but there is a lot more to it than just one man.




Of course, but there are misses because we made the wrong decision (James Davies) and there are hindsight misses that were the right decision at the time (Harvey and Bradley).




One thing a lot of people are missing, is when Sheedy challenged our forward thinking, he wasn't talking about our planning for the future. He challenged our lack of forward structure.

He wasn't having a crack out our drafting or development of young players.
He simply believes that we underestimated the loss of Lloyd, Lucas, McPhee, Lovett and to a lesser extent Skipworth and that we overestimated the impact of Neagle, Gumby, Hurley etc.

The article was about our FORWARD LINE not our FORWARD PLANNING.

wow really???

if sheedy was referring to the forward line and not forward (future) planning, what's with all the debate over the draft and opportunities given to oldies over the last 6 pages???

No one thought it relevant to mention that EVERYONE on this thread was completely mis-interperating what Sheedy was saying until now????

 

[Longy413]

wow really???

if sheedy was referring to the forward line and not forward (future) planning, what's with all the debate over the draft and opportunities given to oldies over the last 6 pages???

No one thought it relevant to mention that EVERYONE on this thread was completely mis-interperating what Sheedy was saying until now????

It's a worthy debate, but not relevant to the article.

Here's the article, perhaps it might be worth a read -
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...forward-thinking/story-e6frf9jf-1225890979870

 

[The Donners]

I was more interested in trading Pokemon cards than trading players at that age.

Sometimes these things are better left unsaid.

 

[yodellinhank]

Pick 33 was traded to Hawthorn for Jonathon Robran... Been following Essendon long? Still could have had Ling. I'm only mentioning the midfielders with refference to my original post so the list could have been alot longer on missed class. Mis read on Chapman.

Again, you're missing the overall point. We weren't the big winner in any draft. Our drafting was ordinary at best for 10 years, subsequently, we find ourselves in this position.

Are you happy with the recruiting post Judkins / pre Sheedy leaving?

Of course you don't write off the whole lot. I haven't. It's just that their have been far far too many misses than hits, subsequently, we've been ordinary for a long time.

Pick 33 was a Collingwood pick.

Essendon In: Jonathon Robran, pick 40 Out: Andrew Ukovic, pick 48
Collingwood In: Andrew Ukovic Out: pick 33
Hawthorn In: Pick 33, 48 Out: Jonathon Robran

Edit: And I think there could have been more to it than that. We also took pick 45, which should have been a Doggies pick. The more I look into it, the more convoluted it gets. Freo, Dogs, Melbourne, Pies trading each others picks like nobodies business. It may have been that we got pick 33 and then on traded it, but the pick might have already been part of third party agreements similar to our pick 16 downgrade with Williams this year.

 

[yodellinhank]

i've given you plenty of evidence, yet you still fail to understand that sheeds poor drafting was only part of the lack of forward planning.....

,,,,the ridiculous amount of games he put into players that clearly either weren't up to it, or weren't sensible long term choices was very damaging to us long term.
it continually denied many young players an opportunity to develop by playing senior football, in favour of playing bolton, henneman, cole, alvey, allen, mcalister, johns, peverill [for about his last 2 years], murphy, michael, camporeale etc etc etc.....

.....i've done this with little thought of names and i'm sure there are quite a few more eg's that could slot in there....bam, zantuck just popped into my head.

you need to open your thinking to realise the evidence you so crave of sheedy's lack of forward thinking extends far beyond the draft.

it was not simply bad luck that the list sheedy left for knights, was a list in which most of our best players were well past their best...it was bad managemnt......otherwise known as poor forward planning, the very thing sheedy has publicly bagged knights for after just 2.5 years into his role..............starting to see the hypocrisy now...

I don't think you have provided any. You have provided much wishful thinking.

Have you considered maybe Michael, Bolton, Henneman etc. got games simply because the young "talent" simply wasn't talented enough? As for Michael, have you considered perhaps drafting a guy with a PSD pick that you beleive can lock down full back, may actually help you take a punt on young midfield talent during the national draft? Perhaps Reimers and Houli where drafted in the knowledge we could plug a hole down back with a mature player?

Go through the names of players who missed out on opportunities due to the guys you have named. I can think of a few:

Jobe Watson: hampered by injury and by his own admission probably wasn't working hard enough.

Ricky Dyson: some argue he is a dud anyway

Robert Forster-Knight: never made it at Port either

Austin Lucy: think he disappeared into obscurity after an injury

Who else, Darren Welsh? Cory McGrath? Jordan Bannister? Help me out. It also pays to keep in mind that some of the guys you listed who "continually denied others an opportunity" are bigger bodied players, who wouldn't have been pushing young gun midfielders out of a spot now, would they? So here's a winner for you maybe: Ted Richards. And I'm not exactly sure he would solve all of our current woes.

Without saying, player x was denied an opportunity and it cost us because y, you have no evidence for argument.

"Instead of drafting spuds we should have developed guns... somehow". Genius. Why didn't they think of that.

 

[The House]

I still love Sheedy saying he would have traded Lloyd for Judd.
Sorry Sheeds but i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you would have been knocked back on that one.....therefore you wanting to trade one of our ledgends is irrelevant because you wouldn't have done it.

 

[The House]

I don't think you have provided any. You have provided much wishful thinking.

Have you considered maybe Michael, Bolton, Henneman etc. got games simply because the young "talent" simply wasn't talented enough? As for Michael, have you considered perhaps drafting a guy with a PSD pick that you beleive can lock down full back, may actually help you take a punt on young midfield talent during the national draft? Perhaps Reimers and Houli where drafted in the knowledge we could plug a hole down back with a mature player?

Go through the names of players who missed out on opportunities due to the guys you have named. I can think of a few:

Jobe Watson: hampered by injury and by his own admission probably wasn't working hard enough.

Ricky Dyson: some argue he is a dud anyway

Robert Forster-Knight: never made it at Port either

Austin Lucy: think he disappeared into obscurity after an injury

Who else, Darren Welsh? Cory McGrath? Jordan Bannister? Help me out. It also pays to keep in mind that some of the guys you listed who "continually denied others an opportunity" are bigger bodied players, who wouldn't have been pushing young gun midfielders out of a spot now, would they? So here's a winner for you maybe: Ted Richards. And I'm not exactly sure he would solve all of our current woes.

Without saying, player x was denied an opportunity and it cost us because y, you have no evidence for argument.

"Instead of drafting spuds we should have developed guns... somehow". Genius. Why didn't they think of that.

Isn't the point that because all these guys were on the list playing ones, other youngsters were not on the list getting senior games?

Surely even just on the balance of probabilties, if you're brining in yong guys to replace those on the list that clearly won't make it long term, you're going to uncover/develop a certain amount of talent.

If you just keep playing a high number of blokes that clearly won't make it long term instead, then you won't.

Sheedy did the latter.

 

[yodellinhank]

Isn't the point that because all these guys were on the list playing ones, other youngsters were not on the list getting senior games?

Surely even just on the balance of probabilties, if you're brining in yong guys to replace those on the list that clearly won't make it long term, you're going to uncover/develop a certain amount of talent.

If you just keep playing a high number of blokes that clearly won't make it long term instead, then you won't.

Sheedy did the latter.

Ah. All those anonymous guns that everybody in the league missed, who went on to have amazing careers chasing dollars in the country. If only they weren't just a figment of our imaginations.

 

[The House]

Ah. All those anonymous guns that everybody in the league missed, who went on to have amazing careers chasing dollars in the country. If only they weren't just a figment of our imaginations.

mate, the point is we'll never know because sheedy was coaching for the now, rather than for the future.

we may have picked up 4 or 5 handy players, we may have developed a couple into very good players....
...maybe we would have brought in a dozen to 15 duds over 5 years and got nothing.....we'll never know [although you seem to be pretty certain there was no talent around....i suspect you may be best buds with Paul the oracle octopus].

 

[yodellinhank]

mate, the point is we'll never know because sheedy was coaching for the now, rather than for the future.

we may have picked up 4 or 5 handy players, we may have developed a couple into very good players....
...maybe we would have brought in a dozen to 15 duds over 5 years and got nothing.....we'll never know [although you seem to be pretty certain there was no talent around....i suspect you may be best buds with Paul the oracle octopus].

Based on the collective opinions of the 16 AFL clubs, yes I'm pretty certain.

I suspect you not only believe yourself destined to win the the lotto, but that you will stumble across the winning ticket blowing down the street.

 

[TheGodDelusion]

Ah. All those anonymous guns that everybody in the league missed, who went on to have amazing careers chasing dollars in the country. If only they weren't just a figment of our imaginations.

Fair point. There aren't any players we traded in Sheedy's last yearswho ended up starring at other clubs. Ted Richards is the only recent one, and it's arguable whether that's win/loss or a win/win given the picks we got were used to draft Dempsey and Lonergan.

I will say that there were kids who were in and out of the team more in his reign (Dyson) and didn't get a go (Lonergan). My gut feel is that he was coaching to keep his job, rather than building towards another flag, but that's just an opinion. I still love what the bloke did for the club. 4 flags. 4. That's more than some clubs have in total. Bloody hard things to win.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Sometimes these things are better left unsaid.

Hey, I was 9 or 10

 

[Kong]

 

[rhysman]

Sheeds had his share of dud trades alright. But one thing is certain - Cyril rioli would currently be an essendon player if he was coaching when that draft was held.

 

[Yoda_]

Sheeds had his share of dud trades alright. But one thing is certain - Cyril rioli would currently be an essendon player if he was coaching when that draft was held.

Amen brother, Amen..

People still ask me today who this David Myers is on the Essendon list, a player they have never heard of..

My answer, some guy we picked up instead of one Cyril Rioli..