"Live Bear bateing"

[Paul Barto]

Originally posted by Stocka
by the AFL itself (via the virtue of historical records, etc.).

Doesn't the AFL include Fitzroy's historical records in the same breath of University, not the current records of the Brisbane Lions?

If it was a bona fide merger, 50/50, wouldn't they merge and recognize both records into one club? i.e. combine the flags Fitzroy won and *Brisbane won? Seeing though you're trying to say they're one club?

Gary Wilson is another who has said Brisbane don't represent Fitzroy.

 

[Stocka]

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Doesn't the AFL include Fitzroy's historical records in the same breath of University, not the current records of the Brisbane Lions?

The point I had made, was that Fitzroy's records are still a part of VFL/AFL history - they're not going to be forgotten or somehow erased.

For what it's worth, in reponse to your above comments, Fitzroy's club records were drawn to a close at the end of 1996, and the same goes for the Bears' club records. The club was merged with the Bears, in effect, creating a new club, with the new club's records beginning as of 1997.

The Brisbane Lions website is the most accurate source to rely upon for its own club records - and keep records begin as at the start of the 1997 season. The club's own website has a "History" section detailing it all quite well:

Brisbane Lions Official Website - History Section

Originally posted by Paul Barto
If it was a bona fide merger, 50/50, wouldn't they merge and recognize both records into one club? i.e. combine the flags Fitzroy won and *Brisbane won? Seeing though you're trying to say they're one club?

No, because as agreed in the merger document, and correctly in the opinion of the club itself, the new club's records were to start from scratch as of 1997 - this would appear to be a fair agreement for supporters of both "parent" clubs. Even with this in mind, the Brisbane Lions still recognise and pay tribute to the club records of Fitzroy and the Bears prior to the merger, and has continued on Fitzroy's honour roll.

I take it you didn't go to the flag-unfurling at the Lions/Bulldogs game at Telstra Dome, back in 2002? For instance, the occasion saw the Lions Premiership flag of '01 AND the Fitzroy Premiership flag of '44 BOTH unfurled prior to the game with many past Fitzroy and Bears players in attendance (Ruthven and Pert amongst them).

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Gary Wilson is another who has said Brisbane don't represent Fitzroy.

Oh really? And might I ask what source you can provide in support of this? Don't tell me he's the only other Fitzroy player you can think of who Roylion didn't have on his earlier list?

At least I see that you are no longer erroneously claiming that the "majority" of past Fitzroy players are against the merger after having that argument refuted earlier.

Although, I am waiting to see if you can tell us what Haydn Bunton and "Chicken" Smallhorn think of the merger. After all, you claimed to have known that Alan "Butch" Gale was not a fan of the merger, despite him having passed away many years prior to it even occurring!

The fact is, that your efforts to try and produce names of players whom you claim are not supportive of the merger, are unsubstantiated. Likewise, as has been pointed out numerous times previously in this very thread, your unsubstantiated name-dropping has proven nothing of your own misconceptions about the merger and the Brisbane Lions (and ironically, neither would it even if it were substantiated!). What does it really matter who an individual chooses to support?

Obviously you either did not understand much of what was written in previous replies to your comments (I even re-posted one of my replies in total, just in case you missed it the first time), or you have chosen to ignore them, despite your inability to refute them. Either way, that says to me that you are either grossly uninformed about the topic matter, or are merely posting unsubstantiated statements in order to get a rise out of Fitzroy supporters who now support the Lions.

Yet, considering that your unsubstantiated claims have been refuted left-right-and-centre, whatever you purpose for contributing them, it would seem to be a fruitless exercise.

 

[Roylion]

Again, this is just plain ignorance. You're just making it up as you go along aren't you.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
1) 1 Fitzroy Board Member, 11 Bears Board Members.

No, my deluded friend. We had 3 Fitzroy board members (Laurie Serafini, Ken Levy and David Lucas). There were 8 board Bears members. Of those 8 Bears directors Mac Tolliday was/is a committed Fitzroy man, who moved to Queensland and started following the Bears as well. So let's say 7 Bears directors - 4 Fitzroy directors out of 11 directors.

Where on earth are you getting your information from?

Originally posted by Paul Barto
2) The Home Ground at the Bears home ground.

Yes? It was a merger wasn't it? Shouldn't the Bears get something?

Originally posted by Paul Barto
3) The Name Brisbane

The official name of the Brisbane LIONS, is the "Brisbane Bears-FITZROY Football Club". Ever noticed the B.B.F.F.C on the back of the Brisbane Lions guernseys.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
4) 80% of the List from the Bears

Yeah, but so what. Players come and go these days. It wouldn't have had anything to do with the fact that Fitzroy finsihed 16th anfd the bears finished 3rd in 1996 would it?

Originally posted by Paul Barto
5) Less than 10% of the games played in the former state of Fitzroy's

Come on. You're just making this figure up. Do the sums. In 1997, the first year of the merger, te new Brisbane Lions played 8 games in Victoria out of a possible 22 rounds. They also came to Melbourne for the final against St Kilda which made 9games. So out of a possible 23 games that Brisbane played that year, 9 were played in Victoria. That makes 10% does it? Try 40% of games.

Last year the Brisbane Lions had 7 games in Victoria during the home and away and 2 finals in Victoria..including the Grand Final. Out of a possible 26 games, there were 9 Victorian games..or 34%.

Your 10% figure is just a joke.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
6) The coach from the Bears

Yes. So what. Denis Pagan would have been the coach of the North-Fitzroy Kangaroos had that gone ahead. What's the difference? Brisbane finished 3rd in 1996, Fitzroy finished 16th and the coach Mick Nunan re-signed during the year.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
7) Access to QAFL Father-Sons

Father-son rule from Fitzroy. Heard of Jonathan Brown have you? Picked up via the father-son rule because his father Brian Brown played 51 senior games for Fitzroy.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
And you think by having the theme song (even though they say Brisbane, not Fitzroy) and some colors that it's 50/50?

Read through the whole thread. I've stated in minute detail why it's roughly equal

And it's clear you don't know the words of the theme song ...
It goes
"We are the pride of Brisbane town
We wear maroon, blue and gold
We will always fight for victory
Like FITZROY and Bears of old......................

Sing along! It's a great song

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Delusion.

lol. I know who's deluded and it ain't me.

Anytime you want to put forward some real facts, just let me know won't you.

 

[Roylion]

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Doesn't the AFL include Fitzroy's historical records in the same breath of University, not the current records of the Brisbane Lions?

The Brisbane Lions don't include the Fitzroy records OR the Bears records. The Lions regard themselves as a new entity that began in 1997. Take a look at the Lions website, where that is made very clear, if you don't believe us.

The AFL did the same until about 1999, when they started including the Bears records as part of the Brisbane Lions records. However the Brisbane Lions do NOT do this and have written to the AFL and the media organisations asking them to stop. Every time the AFL says a milestone has been reached by the Brisbane Lions which includes Bears records the Brisbane Lions release a media statement correcting the record. I have examples of this so if you'd like me to put an example up, I'm very happy to.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
If it was a bona fide merger, 50/50, wouldn't they merge and recognize both records into one club? i.e. combine the flags Fitzroy won and *Brisbane won? Seeing though you're trying to say they're one club?

We're not trying to say Fitzroy and the Brisbane Lions are one club and we've never said that. They're two clubs. What we are trying to do is explain to various ignorant people that there is plenty of Fitzroy in the Brisbane Lions just as there is plenty of the Bears in the new Brisbane Lions. That's why it's called a merger.

The Brisbane Lions is a new entity combined up of some Bears elements (home ground, name etc) and some Fitzroy's (colours, logo, theme song). Howver Fitzroy is a seperate club and the Brisbane Bears is a seperate club.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Gary Wilson is another who has said Brisbane don't represent Fitzroy.

That's crap. I have an interview with Garry Wilson where he says that he supports the Brisbane Lions.

 

[pugsville]

One Last Time

I dont plan to go around in circles forever.

Fitzroy did not chose to Merge with Brisbane. IT was not an act of free will.

A Merger implies some sort of partnership, co-opertaion, choice.

It involved none of those things. Consent is a clear cut issue, either your are free to chose or you are not.

You have not refuted this. It's a fact.

Whatever happened was not a Merger.

You can throw as much smokescrren you like about llegality, other clubs, other scenarios,. and it just isnt relevant in any way.

To be a real geniue Merger, Both clubs have to chose, decide in their own right to form a new merged enitity.

Fitzroy was not given a choice or a say.


Nothing you have said has even remotely challanged this.




To call it a Merger is to LIE.

 

[Paul Barto]

Originally posted by Roylion
We're not trying to say Fitzroy and the Brisbane Lions are one club and we've never said that.

So why do so many people attend Brisbane games in Fitzroy Lions gear? Why do people still delude themselves that Brisbane is Fitzroy?

there is plenty of Fitzroy in the Brisbane Lions just as there is plenty of the Bears in the new Brisbane Lions. That's why it's called a merger.

A merger is 50/50 down the line. Please give me all the variables that Fitzroy brought to the table.

I've already mentioned the variables. What you don't understand is the difference between a takeover/acquisition and a merger.

For the sake of your own deluded mind, look up the terms in the dictionary.

That's crap. I have an interview with Garry Wilson where he says that he supports the Brisbane Lions.

I must have been dreaming when Wilson was interviewed on the Foxtel show with KB, TS and BS last year that Wilson said he doesnt believe Fitzroy are represented by Brisbane.

Of those 8 Bears directors Mac Tolliday was/is a committed Fitzroy man, who moved to Queensland and started following the Bears as well. So let's say 7 Bears directors - 4 Fitzroy directors out of 11 directors.

Let's correctly say 8 official Brisbane Bear board members and 3 official Fitzroy board members. Regardless of his team he supported, he was an official Brisbane Bear official, not an official Fitzroy board member.

But you say this merger is 50/50? Wouldn't the board ratio be close to 5/6? It's 8/3! You've just contradicted yourself!

Yeah, but so what. Players come and go these days. It wouldn't have had anything to do with the fact that Fitzroy finsihed 16th anfd the bears finished 3rd in 1996 would it?

So what? Yet again you've contradicted your "merger" line. You're telling to somehow tell me it was 50/50 yet the playing list, as the board members is grossly in favor of the Brisbane Bears!

You've backtracked from your initial point that it was 50/50 down the line now to saying "roughly" a merger.

There are at least 8 key variables that the Brisbane Bears have/brought the balance of control to the table. There are lucky to be 2 for Fitzroy.

That is an acquisition, not a merger.

 

[Borgsta]

Paul, why do you keep embarrassing yourself?

 

[campbell]

Its a pity they can't legislate against stupidity and ignorance.

 

[Roylion]

Re: One Last Time

Originally posted by pugsville
I dont plan to go around in circles forever.

Fitzroy did not chose to Merge with Brisbane. IT was not an act of free will.

A Merger implies some sort of partnership, co-opertaion, choice.

It involved none of those things. Consent is a clear cut issue, either your are free to chose or you are not.

You have not refuted this. It's a fact.

Whatever happened was not a Merger.

You can throw as much smokescrren you like about llegality, other clubs, other scenarios,. and it just isnt relevant in any way.

To be a real geniue Merger, Both clubs have to chose, decide in their own right to form a new merged enitity.

Fitzroy was not given a choice or a say.


Nothing you have said has even remotely challanged this.

To call it a Merger is to LIE.

Last word on this consent issue.

1. Michael Brennan the administrator of Fitzroy (the man who was legally in control of the club), had the choice between North Melbourne and the Brisbane Bears. He chose the Bears. Michael Brennan was free to choose either entity. Both North Melbourne and the Brisbane Bears knew this and both clubs lobbied Michael Brennan for that to happen, once he took control. As I have already said the ousted Fitzroy board was also still talking to the Brisbane Bears the say before the merger took place. It's clear that there was still a choice to be made in this area as well...although in the end the board chose North. However they had no power to make that choice...the administrator did.

2. Michael Brennan, the administrator of Fitzroy affixed the seal of Fitzroy to the merger document and signed that document. The Fitzroy Football Club signed the merger document. No it was not the choice of the board, but the board's powers in relation to controlling the Fitzroy Football Club had been suspended. Unfortunately or fortunately, whatever your point of view this was done. The club operations of both the Bears and Fitzroy were merged.

3. Supporters. Fitzroy supporters since the merger have had the freedom of choice of whether to support the new entity or not. Over 3,000 former Fitzroy supporters joined the new Brisbane Lions in the first year. Seven years later that Victorian membership of the Brisbane Lions had doubled and could be headed for 7,000 Victorian members this year. I have no doubt that many more are supporters of the Brisbane Lions. Furthermore the past players and officials have also had the choice. Some have decided to walk away...that's their choice. You can;'t tell me that even if Fitzroy had merged with North, that many Fitzroy supporters would not have walked away.

Yes it was disappointing that the Board didn't make the final choice...however the administrator and the supporters and members and players of Fitzroy have had choice since. They had the choice of walking away from the new entity. Some did...some didn't.

If you say they had no other choice then logically you are also admitting that there is a part of Fitzroy in the Brisbane Lions to attract them there in the first place. Had there not been, then you would probably find that Brisbane would not have the present Melbourne supporter base it currently has.

In a nutshell, there was consent....just not from the people you think there should have been. However it's the Fitzroy members and supporters who have the final consent and ascertasin whether in the end the merger will be judged a success. I think at the moment, it can be judged as a success.

 

[Roylion]

Originally posted by Paul Barto
So why do so many people attend Brisbane games in Fitzroy Lions gear? Why do people still delude themselves that Brisbane is Fitzroy?

*Sigh*

This is a nonsense point.

Because the Brisbane Lions are part of Fitzroy. They certainly represent their identity in the AFL. Brisbane Lions supporters can wear what they please. If thehy want to wear Fitzroy gear who cares? Likewise Bears gear. Are you saying that supporters of other clubs can't wear older style guernseys in the history of their club?

Why did the Brisbane Lions wear Fitzroy jumpers in Round 19 last year in that case? The Fitzroy Football Club has contributed in part to the identity of the Brisbane Lions. They are not the Brisbane Lions and we've never said that they are. Brisbane Lions have three premierships, not 11. Brisbane Lions have two Brownlow Medallists, not three or 11.

The Brisbane Lions recognise that. The Brisbane Lions supporters recognise that. Even the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. recognise that.

How difficult is it to understand? Obviously it's something beyond your comprehension.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
A merger is 50/50 down the line. Please give me all the variables that Fitzroy brought to the table.

Colours, logo, name, theme song, past players, father-son, history, tradition....all parts of the identity of Fitzroy.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
I've already mentioned the variables. What you don't understand is the difference between a takeover/acquisition and a merger.

Are you suggesting that the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. did not sign the merger agreement? They did. I've seen it. It can be checked. If you disbelieve me, check it for yourself.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
For the sake of your own deluded mind, look up the terms in the dictionary.

OK. This is what I found.
Merger (n) - union:_a blending, combining, or joining of something with something else, or the state of being blended, combined, or joined together.

Describes it perfectly I wouold have thought.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
I must have been dreaming when Wilson was interviewed on the Foxtel show with KB, TS and BS last year that Wilson said he doesnt believe Fitzroy are represented by Brisbane.

I must be imagining reading an interview dated July 1999, when he says the merger was probably the best thing for Fitzroy. He may have changed his mind...who knows. However wha't your list up to now. 5 if you're lucky? Still counting Alan Gale are you?

My list is 30.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Let's correctly say 8 official Brisbane Bear board members and 3 official Fitzroy board members. Regardless of his team he supported, he was an official Brisbane Bear official, not an official Fitzroy board member.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
But you say this merger is 50/50? Wouldn't the board ratio be close to 5/6? It's 8/3! You've just contradicted yourself!

Well at least I present the facts. 11-1 wasn't it according to you?

The Board is weighted in favor of the old Bears directors, but the club is based in Queensland..... The Brisbane Lions does have some aspects of the Brisbane Bears.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
So what? Yet again you've contradicted your "merger" line. You're telling to somehow tell me it was 50/50 yet the playing list, as the board members is grossly in favor of the Brisbane Bears!

You've taken two factors out of a list of many and said because they are favor of the Brisbane Bears that somehow this is proof that the merger was a takeover. Mac Tolliday was regarded as a Fitzroy director, once the merger took place.

IF it was a takeover by the Bears, can you explain the following
- why Brisbane wears Fitzroy's colours,
- wears the Fitzroy's mascot,
- sings Fitzroy's song, with the word FITZROY in it with phrases from the old Fitzroy song,
- has the same Fitzroy coterie groups "Lion Hunters' etc.,
- has the father-son rule from Fitzroy (e.g Jonathon Brown),
- has the "Fitzroy-Brisbane Past Players and Officials Association" headed by Fitzroy stalwarts such as Norm Brown, Arthur Edwards, Mick Conlan etc. etc.,
- runs events like the Fitzroy Team of the Century, at which 1,600 seats ranging between $80-$250 each, was sold out weeks in advance mostly to Fitzroy fans?
- why former Fitzroy President Leon Weigard is now a patron of the club?
- why the Brisbane Lions Best and Fairest Medal is named the Merrett-MURRAY Medal and that the choice of name for Fitzroy half was chosen by a ballot of Fitzroy members in 1997?
- why at the Gabba, every Fitzroy captain and Brownlow Medallist from 1883 has his photograph and details displayed for all to read.
- why in the players rooms all locker numbers have a list of all the Fitzroy players who wore that number.
- why Laurie Serafini, (one of the Roy's favorite sons) is one of three Victorian directors, the others being long time Fitzroy No. 1 tickeholder Tom Reynolds and until recently long time Fitzroy supporter Mac Tolliday, who was regarded by the board as a Fitzroy director.
- why the Brisbane Lions have a large Victorian social club operation located in the middle of the old Fitzroy recruting zone at Bulleen in Melbourne.
- why at least two members of the current Fitzroy Football Club Ltd., who were on the board in 1996 are Brisbane Lions members
- why the Fitzroy Reds played the curtain-raiser before the Collingwood-Brisbane Lions heritage match in Round 19 last year.
- why life members of Fitzroy are automatically life members of the Brisbane Lions,
- why between 10,000-15,000 Brisbane Lions fans attend Victorian matches, depending on who is playing?
- why Brisbane sponsors the Fitzroy Juniors who play at Fitzroy's spiritual home, the Brunswick St. Oval,
- why the Brisbane Lions also wants the name Brisbane to NOT be displayed on AFL scoreboards, outside the city of Brisbane and wants just LIONS instead. -
- why the company that hold Brisbane's AFL Licence is known as the "Brisbane Bears-FITZROY Football Club Ltd."?
- why the Lions as such will wear the logo of BB-FFC on the back of their jumpers as in the the Western Bulldogs and the Sydney Swans to reflect BOTH parent clubs.
- why there is a legal document merging both football clubs.
- why there are Fitzroy directors on the Brisbane Lions board

Originally posted by Paul Barto
You've backtracked from your initial point that it was 50/50 down the line now to saying "roughly" a merger.

And where did I ever say "roughly a merger"?

And where have I ever said that the merger was 50/50 down the line? Find it and present it here. That's was your definition of a merger....not mine. A merger doesn't have to be 50/50 down the line on every variable to be classed as a merger. See the above dictionary meaning.

It does have to reasonably equal over a number of different aspects and in the case of the Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy, I think it is...as I have demonstrated below. Certainly more even than the proposed North-Fitzroy merger.

How would the North-Fitzroy merger have gone under this 50/50 criteria of yours? See below for the details of the proposed North Melbourne-Fitzroy merger

What about the Melbourne-Hawthorn merger?

Merger is an an act or an instance of merging; union. The club operations of both clubs (Fitzroy and Brisbane) were joined....were brought together...were combined. A merger took place and there is a legal document that confirms that fact.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
There are at least 8 key variables that the Brisbane Bears have/brought the balance of control to the table. There are lucky to be 2 for Fitzroy.
1) 1 Fitzroy Board Member, 11 Bears Board Members.
2) The Home Ground at the Bears home ground.
3) The Name Brisbane
4) 80% of the List from the Bears
5) Less than 10% of the games played in the former state of Fitzroy's
6) The coach from the Bears
7) Access to QAFL Father-Sons

I think there are probably 13 variables in any merger.

1) Board Members - (Bears)
2) Home ground - (Bears)
3) Name - "Brisbane Bears - Fitzroy Football Club" (Bears and Fitzroy)
4) Playing List - (Bears) (something given player movements these days I really don't place much importance over. Given also that the Bears were third in 96 and Fitzroy last this is also not surprising)
5) Roughly 40% of games in Victoria (Bears)
6) Coach - (Bears) (I don't place much importance on this either, as coaches come and go)
7) Father - son (Bears and Fitzroy)
8) Colours (Fitzroy)
9) Logo - (Fitzroy)
10) Coteries - (Fitzroy)
11) Past players and officials - Life members - History (Fitzroy)
12) Club song (Fitzroy)
13) Membership - (Bears)

7 points to 6 in favor of the Bears. Still looks pretty even to me.

Let's now consider the North-Fitzroy merger on the same criteria. 1/2 point each where they share

1) Board Members - (6 Fitzroy - 7 Kangaroos. Kangaroos chairman/president)
2) Home ground - (Kangaroos)
3) Name - "North Fitzroy" (Kangaroos and Fitzroy)
4) Playing List - Kangaroos (44 players only)
5) Games in Victoria (Kangaroos and Fitzroy)
6) Coach - Denis Pagan (Kangaroos)
7) Father - son (Kangaroos and Fitzroy)
8) Colours (Fitzroy and Kangaroos)
9) Logo - Kangaroos (Kangaroos)
10) Coteries - (Fitzroy and Kangaroos)
11) Past players and officials - (Kangaroos)
12) Theme song (Kangaroos)
13) Membership - (Kangaroos)

Kangaroos 8.5 points to Fitzroy's 3. Not as even as the Fitzroy-Brisbane merger. Fitzroy's identity would have been much more diluted in a merger with a Melbourne based club.

We can even look at in another way, where we assign weightings out of 100 to various aspects of a club and what each parent club brings to the merger as a proportion of that weighting.

Club Name : Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. trading as the Brisbane Lions
Weighting (out of 100): 20. Why? Very important, the name of the club.
Bears: 14 Brisbane Bears in the official name and the “Brisbane” in the trading name
Fitzroy: 6 'Fitzroy' in the official name

Identity: This includes colours, emblem, song, etc.
Weighting 20: Why? In 1996 as part of the lead-up to the Melbourne-Hawthorn merger, a firm called x did a survey of Melbourne FC members, which suggested that club members identified with the “look” of a club and that “identity” was important to members. This was done in preparation for the merger with Hawthorn. Another club, North Melbourne identified that same year and also repeatedly since that, their club emblem the Kangaroo was sacrosant and that the colours were really important. Hence their name change to just the Kangaroos.
Bears: 3. Almost nothing of the Bears identity in the new club, except for the maroon colour of Queensland, which is also Fitzroy’s. (I’ll be generous give a couple of points anyway for the colour and for half the lines of the old Brisbane Bears song)
Fitzroy 17: Colours (maroon, blue and gold), emblem, song, emblem displayed prominently on the jumper

Control:
Weighting: 10. The board of directors that runs the club and makes the decisions
Bears: 6: 8 Queensland based directors out of eleven, pne of who is a life-long Fitzroy supporter and since 1997, has become a representive of the Fitzroy constituency.
Fitzroy 4: 3 Victorian directors out of 11

% of Supporters:
Weighting 10 (Supporters are important, but in terms of influencing the merger and what happened in it, the supporters played very little part. Hence my rating.)
Bears: 8; 18,000 Qld based members
Fitzroy: 2; 4,300 Vic based members

History :
Weighting: 10 This includes life members, length of history and achievement brought to the new club
Bears: 1 (10 years of history)
Fitzroy: 9 (100 years of history, majority of life members to the club, No. of Past Players, Hall of Famers, Brownlow Medallists, 8 Premierships,)

Football Club Staff and Players:
Weighting: 10 The reason I don’t rate it more highly is because players come and go with regularity these days.
Bears: 7 (Yes the majority do live in Queensland, but most of the club list comes from Victoria, in any case. Only 12 players have Bear connections and that includes the native Queenslanders,, such as Mal Michael, who never played for them and former Fitzroy players such as Alistair Lynch while there are five current players and one coaching staff member who have connections with Fitzroy. The rest have been recruited since the merger.
Fitzroy: 3 (8 Fitzroy players from a list of 44 at time of merger, including two others on the list at the time who had played for Fitzroy, plus a large number of Fitzroy people who have or are working with the club.)

Location:
Weighting 20 (in a world where communication technology is advancing very rapidly, this becomes less important. However, as I have never denied it is an important factor, ranking with the name and identity, hence my weighting.
Bears: 15 (11 home games, players and coaching staff living in Brisbane, Gabba)
Fitzroy: 5 (Large Melbourne social club, training venues, family days, Melbourne functions, 6-8 home and away games for Victorian members each year not including Finals)

Total Score:
Bears: 53
Fitzroy: 47

A virtually equal merger, with a very, very slight advantage to the Bears. You can disagree with me, on this, but in the end whether you agree or not doesn't really matter. Fitzroy is clearly part of the Brisbane Lions.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
That is an acquisition, not a merger.

1) Brisbane didn't buy Fitzroy. If they did the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. would not exist and it clearly does exist.

2) Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. (under administration) consented to the merger of its' club operations with that of the Brisbane Bears, who then made the necessary changes to the company structure to incorporate Fitzroy. This is what would have happened with the North Melbourne - Fitzroy merger and I believe the Melbourne - Hawthorn merger was going to work in a similar way.

 

[Cyclops]

I think the point is that we're all sad Fitzroy ceased to exist as their old selves.

Many former Fitzroy supporters now support Brisbane, and see in Brisbane an embodiment of their old club. That is a respectable opinion to have, and Brisbane go out of their way to welcome former Roys into the fold. Its unfair to attack people for folowing their old club in the guise of a new one.

It is pretty clear that Fitzroy had their liscence taken away so they're out of the league. They also still have a board so they still exist distinct from Brisbane.

Whatever Roylion says about a new club being formed, the AFL consider that Brisbane is a persistent entity, from 1987 to the present. I believe they hold the same licsence granted (sold?) to the Bears in 1987, and the official players games totals (and goals, stats, club B&Fs, Brownlows etc) are consistent with them being the same team.

Some people may disagree, but its the AFL who issue the liscences and say who's in the league.

I can't say that Brisbane did merge with Fitzroy, becase both still exist seperately. However because Brisbane adopted so much of Fitzroys trappings, you can say that they are somehow carrying on the tradtion.

I'm not having a go, I think its great some part of Fitzroy is continuing. I may disapprove of Jonathon Brown's big head, but its great he's wearing his dad's colours (more or less).

Its pretty hurtful to bring it up, I miss old Fitzroy, but if old Fitzroy people choose Brisbane and see it as some kind of link, good luck to them. Its not up to outsiders to tell them who to barrack for or why.

 

[adey115]

(in advance I'd like to mention that this post is not aimed at posters like Cyclops who have merely stated they miss the Roys but appreciate that many old Roys fans follow the Lions and wish them good luck)


I've thought about the negativity outlined by a couple of people in this post and I've decided it ain't got much to do with Fitzroy and the merger.

Its more than likely activity from "opportunists" who seek any opportunity to cut down the tall poppies. You see, the Brisbane Lions have won 3 flags in a row. Hence they need to be cut down. Hence any opportunity to cut down their supporters is taken with glee. The "you won because of the salary cap" threads. The "*ankermanis" threads. Etc Etc. These ones have probably thought "lets get up the noses of the Lions supporters by attacking those who support the Lions from the Fitzroy side". They are doing so more often than not through poor arguments, ignoring factual info, and more often than not, sheer ignorance. They just love the opportunity to niggle.

Barto and Pugsville I salute you. I'd love to know who you barrack for. While we have 3 magnificently polished trophies you have magnificently polished turds - trying to make your own teams lack of performance look better by putting down those who have been successful. Hold up your turds boys high like a premiership cup, show them to the crowd, aren't they grand? Aren't you better than the others? Or is the truth merely that excrement is dripping slowly onto your head, to match the same stuff coming out of your mouths?