"Live Bear bateing"

[Paul Barto]

The majority of ex Fitzroy champions have publically admitted that they have no desire to support Brisbane as it doesn't represent Fitzroy.

A merger is 50/50.

Please tell me of these variables how Fitzroy is represented. Initial playing group, home ground, board members, etc.

 

[Stocka]

Re: Re: consent

Originally posted by Roylion
Yes it was. Right through the late 80's and early to mid 90's. By a whole host of Victorian clubs, except probably Essendon.

I am still dirty on Sheedy for playing Darren Bewick as a 19th player on the ground (hiding in the shadows under the light-tower in the forward pocket) back in 1993, when he managed to kick a ridiculous torpedo to win the game.

 

[Stocka]

Originally posted by Paul Barto
The majority of ex Fitzroy champions have publically admitted that they have no desire to support Brisbane as it doesn't represent Fitzroy.

I'd disagree with that observation.

For one, the "majority" of former Fitzroy champions opinions have not even been cavassed publically.

However, it is important to note that the Fitzroy Past Players Association, would appear to have embraced the merger, or at least, the Brisbane Lions as an entity which now represents Fitzroy, or continues/preserves its traditions and heritage. Evidence for this being, that the past players association is now the "Fitzroy-Brisbane Lions Past Players Association".

Likewise, whilst there have been some individual players, such as D.McMahon who have been vehemently against the Brisbane Lions and the AFL, there have far more Fitzroy champions who have indicated public support for the club (ie: Kevin Murray and Laurie Serafini are the two most prominent of these).

There are also a group of players who seem largely indifferent to supporting the Brisbane Lions as a club in the manner that they used to support Fitzroy, but at the same time, they also attend club functions and note at least a passing interest in the club.

Similarly, I've also seen quite a number of past Fitzroy players at games, a number with their own children dressed in Lions gear.

Certainly, the only current AFL club which is going to recognise the achievements of Fitzroy players is the Brisbane Lions - this being the most pertinent issue.

At any rate, it's already been mentioned that people are free to make their individual choice regarding the Brisbane Lions. Does the choice of one person affect or validate the choice of another? Personally, I don't think so.

 

[Homer]

I apologise to all my fellow Lions supporter for bringing the subject up... All I wanted was to showcase my Nostradmus-esque talent, but as per usual some dip**** on his high-horse decided to hijack the thread.

I revived it for some light-heardted ribbing and joking, not some slapnuts to waltz on in and try drive a wedge through a team that has worked hard to mend all the fences.

Pugsvill et al.... **** OFF!!!

 

[PortProudWA]

Originally posted by Woof
I notice all those big bad bears with their wealth of helpfull tips about the dogs choking have been quieter than the Russian submariners since the weekend.
Like guinness they travel ****house, also didn't notice any handstands from Akermanis or choking jestures from sleepy, oh well he can have a good nap until next year now

hu

 

[Paul Barto]

Originally posted by Stocka
Likewise, whilst there have been some individual players, such as D.McMahon who have been vehemently against the Brisbane Lions and the AFL, there have far more Fitzroy champions who have indicated public support for the club (ie: Kevin Murray and Laurie Serafini are the two most prominent of these).

Richard Osborne, Bernie Quinlan, Alan Gale, Bill Stephen, Gary Pert hardly constitutes the minority that have publically stated Brisbane do no represent Fitzroy.

 

[Squizy Taylor]

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Richard Osborne, Bernie Quinlan, Alan Gale, Bill Stephen, Gary Pert hardly constitutes the minority that have publically stated Brisbane do no represent Fitzroy.

Alan 'Butch' Gale died whilst addressing players at a team dinner in 1987.

 

[Stocka]

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Richard Osborne,

Osborne also stated that even if Fitzroy were still around he would most likely support Collingwood, as that was his last club in the AFL, and also the club he supported as a child.

Still, it hasn't stopped Osborne from attending quite a number of club and past-player functions of recent years.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Bernie Quinlan,

Bernie Quinlan has been to quite a lot of Brisbane Lions and past players functions over the last few years as well. I don't think he has a lot to do with football anymore, and hasn't since '95. Without knowing the man personally, I'd suggest that this is probably due to a combination of factors including his sacking as Fitzroy coach, perhaps a lack of enthusiasm following the merger, as well as the death of his daughter.

With all that said though, I can hardly see much evidence to suggest that he is against the Brisbane Lions. If you can provide some, please enlighten us all with it.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Alan Gale,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Alan Gale passed away at least a decade or so before the merger even came about.

I don't suppose you know what "Chicken" Smallhorn and Haydn Bunton think of the merger, by any chance?

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Bill Stephen,

Like Norm Brown, I see him fairly regularly at Fitzroy Reds games and have chatted to him a few times about the Lions. Seems quite content to follow the Lions if you ask me anything.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Gary Pert

Pert came out publically last year, and said that he is interested in what the Brisbane Lions are doing, and also that his children followed the Lions, and that he takes them to see the games when he can. I have even read that he is a member of the club, along with his children.

Likewise, if Pert is against the Lions, then why did he join in the Premiership flag unfurling with a number of other Fitzroy legends the other year at Telstra Dome?

Originally posted by Paul Barto
hardly constitutes the minority that have publically stated Brisbane do no represent Fitzroy.

For starters, I never used the term "minority". Secondly, that list of players hardly constitutes the "majority" of past Fitzroy players, as you claimed earlier (and the validity of your claims regarding those individuals has already been brought into question). Likewise, I could post my own list of past players whom I know are supportive of the club - although, in my opinion, whilst the opinions of individual supporters, players, and officials might be interesting, they don't provide any hard and fast rules as to what Fitzroy people as a whole, think or feel.

In fact, I reckon you should re-read the post I made earlier as you seemed to have skipped (or ignored) most of the points I made in coming to your conclusions, if your latest reply is anything to judge by. I'll post it here again just in case you missed it:

For one, the "majority" of former Fitzroy champions opinions have not even been cavassed publically.

However, it is important to note that the Fitzroy Past Players Association, would appear to have embraced the merger, or at least, the Brisbane Lions as an entity which now represents Fitzroy, or continues/preserves its traditions and heritage. Evidence for this being, that the past players association is now the "Fitzroy-Brisbane Lions Past Players Association".

(If anything, this official group would appear to be the most accurate guide as to what the playing group as a whole think and feel, considering they are, after all, the official past players association).

Likewise, whilst there have been some individual players, such as D.McMahon who have been vehemently against the Brisbane Lions and the AFL, there have far more Fitzroy champions who have indicated public support for the club (ie: Kevin Murray and Laurie Serafini are the two most prominent of these).

There are also a group of players who seem largely indifferent to supporting the Brisbane Lions as a club in the manner that they used to support Fitzroy, but at the same time, they also attend club functions and note at least a passing interest in the club.

Similarly, I've also seen quite a number of past Fitzroy players at games, a number with their own children dressed in Lions gear.

Certainly, the only current AFL club which is going to recognise the achievements of Fitzroy players is the Brisbane Lions - this being the most pertinent issue.

At any rate, it's already been mentioned that people are free to make their individual choice regarding the Brisbane Lions. Does the choice of one person affect or validate the choice of another? Personally, I don't think so.

 

[Roylion]

Originally posted by Paul Barto
The majority of ex Fitzroy champions have publically admitted that they have no desire to support Brisbane as it doesn't represent Fitzroy.

Who? When? Where?

That's garbage and a statement that you can't substantiate.

I'll tell you who has been obseved or recorded saying that they support the Brisbane Lions. Some of these have told me personally, other statements come from the media and other sources, such as interviews in books such as "Fitzroy - For the Love of the Jumper".

Those former Fitzroy players that I know of who say they now support the Brisbane Lions are: Kevin Murray, Garry Wilson, Mick Conlan, Gary Pert, Norm Johnstone, Arthur Wilson, Warwick Irwin, Harvey Merrigan, Bill Stephen, Clen Denning, Allan Ruthven (recently deceased), Arthur 'Titch' Edwards (deceased), Laurie Serafini, Martin Pike, Alistair Lynch, Chris Johnson, Brad Boyd, Alan Thompson, Chris Smith, Alex Ruscuklic, Barry Padley, Ivan Smith, Kevin Wright, George Coates, Brian Brown, Scott McIvor, Colin Davey, Leon Harris and Matt Rendell.

Edit: You can add Kevin O'Keefe (92 games for Fitzroy - 1973-79) to that list. He's the head of the Past Players Association in Queensland and describes himself as a very committed Brisbane Lions supporter.

You can also add Michael Coates - (article from Nov 2000 on the Fitzroy-Brisbane Past Players Association)

Like a list of sources for each and every one of those?

An example of a source? Mick Conlan in August 2000 stated...."I'd love to be back involved with the Brisbane Lions. I'd like to think I could contribute or offer some support in some way...." Where are they now" - interview with Mick Conlan published in "The Lions Tale" - August 2000.

Paul Roos says that if he lived in Melbourne he would take his kids to see Brisbane Lions matches. He also stated last year that "if the Sydney Swans can't win the Grand Final, I sure hope that the Brisbane Lions can"

The only former players that I know don't support the merger are David McMahon, Colin Hobbs, Jarrod Molloy and Richard Osborne. Any others that you know of along with sources?

Originally posted by Paul Barto
A merger is 50/50.

Or reasonably close to. I'd say the Bears - Fitzroy merger qualifies as pretty close to equal.

Originally posted by Paul Barto
Please tell me of these variables how Fitzroy is represented. Initial playing group, home ground, board members, etc.

Please tell me of these variables how Fitzroy is represented.

Colours, logo, theme song tune and words, name "Fitzroy", life membership, father-son rule and so on

 

[luthor]

What amazing temerity by Pugsville and his ilk to lecture supporters of our club on what we are allowed to feel.

Especially when the "arguments" are pretty much all based on hearsay, name-dropiing and just plain errors in fact.

Maybe just a tinge of jealousy too eh?

Well done Stocka for your systematic dismantling of the infidels.

For once, your line by line disections didn't bore me to death

 

[Roylion]

Originally posted by Paul Barto

Richard Osborne, Bernie Quinlan, Alan Gale, Bill Stephen, Gary Pert hardly constitutes the minority that have publically stated Brisbane do no represent Fitzroy.

So five names...two of which are wrong and one who is deceased before the merger is supposed to constitute a 'majority' is it? That leaves two. Geez, I've suggested more against the merger than you have!

So we have 29 known to be for and 4 against, three of whom were suggested by me.

(Merrogan is actually 'Merrigan'. Typo.)

Originally posted by Stocka
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Alan Gale passed away at least a decade or so before the merger even came about.

Sadly, correct. In the words of a character from Life of Brian, Mr. Barto appears to be "making it up as he goes along"

Originally posted by Stocka
Like Norm Brown, I see him fairly regularly at Fitzroy Reds games and have chatted to him a few times about the Lions. Seems quite content to follow the Lions if you ask me anything.

Ditto.

Not absolutely fanatical about the Lions, but has said on a couple of occasions that it's better to follow something of Fitzroy than nothing at all.

Originally posted by Stocka
For starters, I never used the term "minority". Secondly, that list of players hardly constitutes the "majority" of past Fitzroy players, as you claimed earlier (and the validity of your claims regarding those individuals has already been brought into question). Likewise, I could post my own list of past players whom I know are supportive of the club - although, in my opinion, whilst the opinions of individual supporters, players, and officials might be interesting, they don't provide any hard and fast rules as to what Fitzroy people as a whole, think or feel.

Exactly.

But seeing that the players were brought up, it appears that the evidence available suggests that the majority of former Fitzroy players DO support the Lions. I'm sure there's a few more than the ones I've suggested that don't support the merger. However until we canvass every single surviving Fitzroy player, no-one will know for certain. That's why I'd like to read Mr. Barto's sources to back up his original statement. Happy to supply my sources for my above list.

 

[Roylion]

Re: Re: Re: consent

Originally posted by Stocka
I've even heard that Elaine Findlay is a Lions member, Roylion. I'm pretty sure the club secretary, Bill Atherton, is as well.

Well if that's true that is excellent. I haven't spoken to Elaine recently about the subject of the Brisbane Lions.

Makes the opposition case even weaker.

Originally posted by Stocka
In fact, I know for a fact, that the head of the "Fitzroy Supporters Group", who were once vehemently anti-Brisbane Lions, became a member last year as well.

Even better. It's great to see that many (dare I say it appears the majority) of the general Fitzroy community is now recognising the presence of a vibrant Fitzroy identity in the Brisbane Lions and supporting them. Here's to 7,000 members in Victoria this year.

 

[Roylion]

Re: Re: Re: consent

Originally posted by Stocka
I am still dirty on Sheedy for playing Darren Bewick as a 19th player on the ground (hiding in the shadows under the light-tower in the forward pocket) back in 1993, when he managed to kick a ridiculous torpedo to win the game.

Good point.

OK. Include Essendon.

 

[Roylion]

Originally posted by Homer
I apologise to all my fellow Lions supporter for bringing the subject up... All I wanted was to showcase my Nostradmus-esque talent, but as per usual some dip**** on his high-horse decided to hijack the thread.

I was going to commend you on your foresight, but unfortunately the untruths, exaggerations, misconceptions and ignorance of Pugsville and Mr. Barto (both of whom do not and did not support Fitzroy and appear have not had any involvement with the Brisbane Lions) could not go unchallenged.

Still.... talking about Fitzroy and the Brisbane Lions is always good.

 

[Stocka]

Originally posted by Roylion
Sadly, correct. In the words of a character from Life of Brian, Mr. Barto appears to be "making it up as he goes along"

I am prepared to give Mr.Barto the benefit of the doubt here, Roylion. Obviously, through the power of seance and the scent from an old pair of Lou Richards' underpants, Mr.Barto apparently has discovered a portal to the after-life, and is able to converse with deceased Fitzroy champions.

I am interested to know what Mr.Barto can tell us of the opinions of "Chicken" Smallhorn and Haydn Bunton regarding the merger.

In fact, whilst I've only heard this as a rumour, apparently mid-season during 2002, one of Mr.Barto's sorties into the after-life ended up as a botched attempt, resulting in the ghosts of Gerald Brosnan and Chris "Leathers" Lethbridge being materialised somewhere around the Victoria Park ground.

Dear-oh-dear, Mr. Barto. With the re-transfiguration of these former Fitzroy captains who won Premierships against Collingwood, might you have somehow also ressurrected the famed "Colliwobbles" into the bargain. Dear-oh-dear, Mr.Barto. Dear-oh-dear!

 

[Borgsta]

Its funny that 2 idiots cant even read a date and are attempting to bag a person "Woof" whose username no longer even exists.

 

[Stocka]

Originally posted by Borgsta
Its funny that 2 idiots cant even read a date and are attempting to bag a person "Woof" whose username no longer even exists.

Never mind that, as I'm sure 'Paul "I see dead people" Barto' can soon revive him for a cup of tea with Alan Gale and Ted Whitten.

 

[Borgsta]

Originally posted by Stocka
Never mind that, as I'm sure 'Paul "I see dead people" Barto' can soon revive him for a cup of tea with Alan Gale and Ted Whitten.

Fantastic, the bulldogs need someone like Ted Whitten back at the club.

 

[pugsville]

No Consent.

No Consent. End of Arguement.

Adminstrator bloody piffle. YOU wanta support brisbane fine. Thats your choice but to declare it a fair and proper merger is LIE, to MISTREPRESENT, and to DENY are sort of other choice for fitzroy people.

Just coz some Adminstartor decides to merge the club you really think that gives Brisbane the right to acquire fitzroy colours, song, tradirtion to use as it sees fit.

To carry on with the charade that it was a Merger is to leave those dispossed fitzroy fans with nothing.

To say the Adminstator had the legal power and therefore it is accpetable as consenting for the club and it was a valid merger is to deny any sort of Morality what so ever. Many things are legal in this world, does not for a second say there are Right.

Fitzroy was Fitzroy. It isnt Brisbane. They took your club and you honur them for it.


No Consent. No Merger.


You can make your own choices , you are entitled but you are not entitled to LIE. It was NOT a merger.

 

[Stocka]

You seem a bit touchy tonight, Pugsville.

Originally posted by pugsville
To carry on with the charade that it was a Merger is to leave those dispossed fitzroy fans with nothing.

That's not the case at all. At any rate even if the above statement were to be true, I'm interested to know how the flip-side of your logic works. For instance, how exactly does denying the merger "give" anything to anyone, anyway?

Fitzroy supporters can choose to support the Brisbane Lions, or the Fitzroy Reds, or any other football club in any league they like. Similarly, even if they choose to support no club at all, they can still reminisce on Fitzroy prior to the merger, as the club's history is preserved by the Brisbane Lions, Fitzroy Football Club, the Fitzroy-Brisbane Lions Past Players Association, the Fitzroy Historical Society, and even (somewhat ironically), by the AFL itself (via the virtue of historical records, etc.).

At any rate, if there had been no merger, unfortunately, Fitzroy were destined to fold regardless, leaving Fitzroy supporters with nothing anyway. This makes your above point quite invalid.

Then again, I think Roylion and myself have already explained all of this to you earlier in the thread . . .

Originally posted by pugsville
Many things are legal in this world, does not for a second say there are Right.

A bit like the uninformed opinions as presented by yourself and Mr.Barto in this thread then, isn't it?

It amazes me how there are so many self-proclaimed merger-experts out there, when most of these people haven't followed the merger closely enough since its inception to know all the pertinent facts. Similarly, the same people seem to think they are entitled to speak on behalf of Fitzroy supporters and/or pass judgement on them, despite them not ever being Fitzroy supporters themselves.

I'm a bit bemused as to your motives for your continual postings about this issue, Pugsville. I mean, what interest is it to you anyway? Are you posting your thoughts in order to gain a greater understanding of Fitzroy and the merger? Or are you merely to get a rise out of Lions/Fitzroy supporters? If it's the latter, as your points are being consistently exposed and refuted, it would seem that you are wasting your time, if this is the case.

 

[Roylion]

Re: No Consent.

Originally posted by pugsville
No Consent. End of Arguement.

Continually repeating an unsupported mantra does absolutely nothing to convince me that you are correct. Put your facts on the table about the lack of consent and argue them logically...not emotively.

Originally posted by pugsville
Adminstrator bloody piffle. YOU wanta support brisbane fine. Thats your choice but to declare it a fair and proper merger is LIE, to MISTREPRESENT, and to DENY are sort of other choice for fitzroy people.

Emotive claptrap.

Fitzroy people have a perfect right to make a choice of who they want to support or not support. The choices are many.

They include the Fitzroy Reds in D1 of the VAFA, the Brisbane Lions, other AFL clubs. They can be members of the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. They can support the Fitzroy Lions club that exists in South Australia if they want.

It's crap that Fitzroy people do not have choice because of the merger with Brisbane? Under that logic, what choice was there for Fitzroy people who didn't support the North Melbourne merger?

So what is your definition of a "fair" merger?

As far as I'm concerned it was a fair merger, as many Fitzroy people now are acknowledging. Fitzroy has the colours, theme song, logo, the name "Fitzroy" in the name of the club, as well as a host of other things such as the father-son rule, life membership, Fitzroy coteries which have continued recognition and adoption of history and so on. What else needs to be done in order to make it a "fair" merger?

What does a "fair" merger need to constitute in your opinion?

Originally posted by pugsville
Just coz some Adminstartor decides to merge the club you really think that gives Brisbane the right to acquire fitzroy colours, song, tradirtion to use as it sees fit.

Yep. The club was merged...like it or not. And as the AFL controls logos, names, licences and the like, if they say so, the Brisbane Lions have a perfect right. If they didn't, it would have been challenged in court before now. It hasn't.

Originally posted by pugsville
To carry on with the charade that it was a Merger is to leave those dispossed fitzroy fans with nothing.

How so? To fold would have left Fitzroy fans with nothing. What would a merger with North Melbourne had for Fitzroy fans. They still would have lost their club wouldn't they?

How would have a North Melbourne merger been better in preserving Fitzroy's existing identity?

Originally posted by pugsville
To say the Adminstator had the legal power and therefore it is accpetable as consenting for the club and it was a valid merger is to deny any sort of Morality what so ever.

It's more than acceptable. It's the law. The club operations of the both the Bears and Fitzroy were merged and there's a legal document that states that fact, signed by the Fitzroy Football Club. Which bit of this is difficult to understand?

Take a look at the Fitzroy Football Club website at http://www.fitzroyfc.com.au/home.html

Notice the front page? What do we see?

1) A picture of the Brisbane Lions premiership celebrations at Brunswick St Oval, Fitzroy's spiritual home.
2) A Weg poster of the 2001 Brisbane Lions premiership poster that the Fitzroy Football Club is selling.
3) And a statement that reads:

"We also endeavour to represent the interests of Fitzroy members who support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL Merger".

How much clearer do you want it? It's clear that the Fitzroy Football Club (now out of administration), which Dyson Hore-Lacy is still the chairman of.. call it a merger. It's on their website!!

Originally posted by pugsville
Many things are legal in this world, does not for a second say there are Right.

That's correct. But my belief is that the decision made was the right one. It's definitely turned out that way.

Originally posted by pugsville
Fitzroy was Fitzroy. It isnt Brisbane. They took your club and you honur them for it.

How can they take my club, if there was no merger, as you claim? My club exists in the Brisbane Lions and the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd.

Originally posted by pugsville
No Consent. No Merger.

Consent by who? The members? Did you know that the North Melbourne members would also not have received a say whether or not the merger with Fitzroy would have gone ahead.

Using your logic, that must mean no consent...no merger in that case, wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by pugsville
You can make your own choices , you are entitled but you are not entitled to LIE. It was NOT a merger.

I can only say yet again that the club operations of both clubs were merged. I've read the legal document that states that very fact and sets out the terms of the merger. The Fitzroy Football Club acknowledges this. If you choose not to believe the facts then that's up to you.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story will you?

And if you have the facts that the club operations of both clubs weren't merged, state them right here. Otherwise your claims / opinions cannot be supported.

 

[Bobby Beecroft]

Apology to Pugsville - your ignorance on the subject pales into insignificance when your read the GENIUS that is PAUL BARTO.

Paul I actually had a beer with one of Allan 'Butch' Gales sons last night & I must admit that at times it did feel as though there was a ghostly presence accompanying us.

As I have said to you as per a previous thread on this topic PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stick to a topic that do have the slighest knowledge about. Your morbid fascination with the DEAD has now reached new boundaries. I fail to see why you continually 'attempt' to contribute to this discussion when its apparent your factual input is based on LIES. Your ignorance knows no boundaries & as a result the hole you dig for yourself continues to get Deeper.

Paul I will try to keep it simple for you. It's up to the individual to take what ever they wish from the memories that were/are the Fitzroy Football Club. Some follow the Lions, some the Reds, some won't ever go to a game again but who cares (apart from the odd Collingwood supporter) it's our choice. The main thing is that life goes on Mr Barto, & now that we have made our own choices, Perhaps its time for you to move on.

Please be careful if you bother to reply I do fear for your safety in that if this hole gets any bigger you might just hit Japan. If you hit Japan just a hint don't mention WW2(not doubt your an expert on this as well), they probably won't be as tolerant. Although knowing your constant struggle to move on with the times & life you probably won't be able to help yourself.

 

[Homer]

Originally posted by Roylion
Still.... talking about Fitzroy and the Brisbane Lions is always good.

True that. I aim to please.

The others have gone awfully quiet... Congrats to Roylion and Stocka, it was a rather methodical dispatching of trolls.

 

[MGREG]

Butch Gale eh?

Tell me did Chicken Smallhorn and Hadyn Bunton not recognise the merger as well?

 

[Paul Barto]

Originally posted by Roylion
Colours, logo, theme song tune and words, name "Fitzroy", life membership, father-son rule and so on

So you had..

1) 1 Fitzroy Board Member, 11 Bears Board Members.
2) The Home Ground at the Bears home ground.
3) The Name Brisbane
4) 80% of the List from the Bears
5) Less than 10% of the games played in the former state of Fitzroy's
6) The coach from the Bears
7) Access to QAFL Father-Sons

And you think by having the theme song (even though they say Brisbane, not Fitzroy) and some colors that it's 50/50?

Delusion.