Reminds me of that whoopie Goldberg movie, 'Eddie' where she Slavs off the coach so much he says well you do it. Then she realizes the team is full of highly paid pampered brats who won't put in the hard work and focus on outside interests.
Opinion Lyon and our culture
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Reminds me of that whoopie Goldberg movie, 'Eddie' where she Slavs off the coach so much he says well you do it. Then she realizes the team is full of highly paid pampered brats who won't put in the hard work and focus on outside interests.
- Aug 20, 2010
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Is it just me or did Pav's tweet about "Success is not final" after the derby irk anyone else?
Most of what Pav says irks me and I try and ignore it as much as possible. For example, 'lets not jump at shadows' which he has trotted out at least twice after a diabolical hiding.
Pavlich puts out those sorts of messages because he simply doesn't care about the "Right here and now" enough. He has more important things in his life than AFL and losing a game means not as much to him as other things. That's why he tries to put supporters into perspective like "it's not that bad, come on" because to him it isn't.
Another thing I have been thinking about recently is how we never put teams away. I think most freo fans know we seriously lack those "thrashing" games that even clubs like Richmond have. Did you guys ever wonder why we rarely put teams away? I think I have the answer and it ties into what I said before.
Players that only care about SHOWING that they are playing football "well" instead of actually DOING it will only perform to a level required to "get the job done". Now you can say this is smart football, don't waste energy when we are going to win anyhow!
But I think it's dumb football because often the thrashings are where players get confidence from to build their futures on. Lesser known players often can get 3 or 4 goals in a thrashing and they then have this positive impression of themselves of what they can do in an AFL Game. Using this confidence they take the next step and hit the next level of their game.
There is no doubt in my mind we have many players that want to SHOW that they are doing their job. I've pointed this out before with numerous images to show Schammer doing this exact thing in a game defensively, I'm not sure if you guys remember it and I've seen a few more instances of players doing it also but nothing quite that bad. I think there is this culture within many of our players where they only care about putting in the bare minimum to make the coach or whoever happy. We've all been in the position where we want to make ourselves "look busy" so we don't get into trouble, and I think many Freo players go into games not actually enjoying it, but wanting to "not get in trouble", and as soon as they think they have crossed that line it's "oh I've done my job now time to kick back and relax".
Another thing I have been thinking about recently is how we never put teams away. I think most freo fans know we seriously lack those "thrashing" games that even clubs like Richmond have. Did you guys ever wonder why we rarely put teams away? I think I have the answer and it ties into what I said before.
Players that only care about SHOWING that they are playing football "well" instead of actually DOING it will only perform to a level required to "get the job done". Now you can say this is smart football, don't waste energy when we are going to win anyhow!
But I think it's dumb football because often the thrashings are where players get confidence from to build their futures on. Lesser known players often can get 3 or 4 goals in a thrashing and they then have this positive impression of themselves of what they can do in an AFL Game. Using this confidence they take the next step and hit the next level of their game.
There is no doubt in my mind we have many players that want to SHOW that they are doing their job. I've pointed this out before with numerous images to show Schammer doing this exact thing in a game defensively, I'm not sure if you guys remember it and I've seen a few more instances of players doing it also but nothing quite that bad. I think there is this culture within many of our players where they only care about putting in the bare minimum to make the coach or whoever happy. We've all been in the position where we want to make ourselves "look busy" so we don't get into trouble, and I think many Freo players go into games not actually enjoying it, but wanting to "not get in trouble", and as soon as they think they have crossed that line it's "oh I've done my job now time to kick back and relax".
Wow, I sort of agree with all of that.
There's an old saying of 'What gets measured, gets done.' meaning that people will only do what is required that they're accountable for..
You can see the impact of this on teams. Eg lots of cheap handballs to rack up possessions to ensure you're above a certain figure required to stay in the starting team. So you get guys just doing enough to meet their goals week in week out as individuals.
What doesn't ever seem to get measured in Freo are the goals that would make them a great club as a team. Eg winning finals and GF's. I recall under Connolly and Drum the F word wasn't allowed to be used as if that wasn't actually the goal. Even Harvey was reluctant to use it.
At least Lyon has plainly stated that is the goal this year. That's a first in the history of the club I think. Problem is it has yet to make an impact it would seem on the players.
Do they offer incentive salary bonuses for winning finals? Eg an Extra $20K for winning each final? Slash the basic salary by a certain amount a year and tell them they can recoup it by winning finals and you watch how well they do.
You can see the impact of this on teams. Eg lots of cheap handballs to rack up possessions to ensure you're above a certain figure required to stay in the starting team. So you get guys just doing enough to meet their goals week in week out as individuals.
What doesn't ever seem to get measured in Freo are the goals that would make them a great club as a team. Eg winning finals and GF's. I recall under Connolly and Drum the F word wasn't allowed to be used as if that wasn't actually the goal. Even Harvey was reluctant to use it.
At least Lyon has plainly stated that is the goal this year. That's a first in the history of the club I think. Problem is it has yet to make an impact it would seem on the players.
Do they offer incentive salary bonuses for winning finals? Eg an Extra $20K for winning each final? Slash the basic salary by a certain amount a year and tell them they can recoup it by winning finals and you watch how well they do.
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Where's the uproar against Adelaide? They scored 49 pts on the weekend (3 in the 4th). That match was actually 46-40 at 3 qtr time.
Ridiculous stuff.
Ridiculous stuff.
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- #58
Yeah, it's a big problem of mine. I think once in the past two and a bit seasons we've played a game where we've won every quarter. We've played some seriously weak sides and had reasonably big wins, but the side just doesn't go in for the kill and put four quarters of pressure on. The minimum required seems to be the standard.
Near enough has always been good enough in the past it seems. Attest to this is that i've generally in the past been more confident of us getting the W if we're behind by a few points at 3 qtr time rather than in front by a few points.
One thing that I hope changes is the way we prepare and develop players. I look at the young west coast mids and they are cut as and look in awesome shape.
Memories has said this before, but we have several players who don't look like they have even seen weights room.
Some might say that Dustin Fletcher has never lifted a weight but, I don't want a team full of spaghetti arms.
I want our culture to be one that competes and prepares with ruthlessness. Maybe we have too many players that aren't prepared to do that.
Memories has said this before, but we have several players who don't look like they have even seen weights room.
Some might say that Dustin Fletcher has never lifted a weight but, I don't want a team full of spaghetti arms.
I want our culture to be one that competes and prepares with ruthlessness. Maybe we have too many players that aren't prepared to do that.
We are going to be totally out-muscled by Richmond, I have a feeling..
sportsmaniac89
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Not really!
They were 7-1 going into the Collingwood game and really had been up for a while, not to mention some very impressive wins and a clearly functioning attack that scores points.
As for Freo, well we have Ross Lyon. Lyon's reputation for dour football precedes him so if Freo slog it out and only score 5 goals for the game, people will see it as him setting the team up to choke the life out of the game. It's Lyon's reputation that leads to this criticism, nothing more, nothing less.
- Apr 10, 2010
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This is kind of what I'm hoping for and at the same time worried most about. My 2 cents:
Like others have said we've had too many years of players being semi-accountable and getting away with being in the better half of a bad lot and this has to be a part of our problems with travelling and getting the big % wins.
What I've liked so far with Lyon is him looking through the team with fresh eyes and flat out saying some guys aren't good enough, the team announced in a few hours will be a big test but I'm also liking him dropping players and rewarding wafl form.
I don't like the way we have been playing but then there has been plenty of 9 game streaks where I haven't liked the way we played.
IF the players have bought into Lyon's plan and are going to commit it could well be the making of Freo and any short term pain (and that could be a full season) will be well worth that. My worry is that if the players don't believe in Lyon's way, do we start losing players and putting off new players coming to the club? A month ago maybe Cloke would have thought about the offer but would any full forward want to sign on for Freo at the moment?
I'm a fan, I dont know players or support staff personally so I don't know I just hope that there's a group of core players at least, that believe Lyon can be good for Freo and for them (and I suppose I worry that there's not). Stuff the media, BF ribbing and sitting through god knows what saturday (though I'm tempted to add a couple to the pre-game pint) If the players support Lyon then I'm happy with what we've got.
Part of Lyon's reputation was also helping the Swans to the GF, & getting St kilda to back 2 back & they really should have won 09. So you have to look at the whole picture & give him time to bring in a winning culture as previous with swans & Saints.
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I do realize all that and it was a bit tongue-in-cheek however there was only 86 points scored to 3 qtr time and I don't hear any rubbish 'boring' game comments etc.
Also ADE have what we lack, two dominant forward targets in Tippett and Walker. I'd be happy to have one. The funny thing is you'll still see Walker and Tippett up the other end of the ground as well.
sportsmaniac89
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Part of Lyon's reputation was also helping the Swans to the GF, & getting St kilda to back 2 back & they really should have won 09. So you have to look at the whole picture & give him time to bring in a winning culture as previous with swans & Saints.
I refer to the bolded on this particular one. I understand what's being said but the reality is pretty different.
There isn't any time.
We're in a hurry and we need to be performing on a regular basis as opposed to the slops we're serving up this season.
We paid for "the best" and we expect "the best" and so far we're being served up "le s**t" and that's probably the most polite thing I can say.
It's all well and good saying, let's give him time to implement the game plan and let's give him time to build the culture of the Fremantle Football Club. I say let's not have this come at the expense of the 2012 season because frankly I'd call it a season wasted. I'd call it a waste of 6 months investing myself emotionally into following the team only to see us not make finals despite having "the best" coach in the game.
I expect finals! I demand finals and anything less will be deemed a failure and will see me lose my sanity completely. The only thing that I've got going for me in the sanity stakes is that I have a loving missus who tolerates my passion for the Fremantle Football Club.
At the end of the day, excuses won't be tolerated and "New Coach, New Game Plan" definitely would be an excuse.
If you beleive that a new coach can come into aclub & change 16 years pour culture in 9 games you must beleive in pixies at the bottom of the garden.
If you beleive that a new coach can come into aclub & change 16 years pour culture in 9 games you must beleive in pixies at the bottom of the garden.
You can't change culture if you do nothing about the biggest leaders at the club. Pavlich, Mundy, Sandilands reside as the biggest leaders at the club and they have been "a part of" our poor culture.
Yet what action have we seen from Ross on these 3? Nothing. I am 100% SURE that Mundy and Pavlich could talk their way into fooling most near anyone about why their performances aren't up to scratch and that they are doing X,Y,Z to address it. I am also 100% sure nothing will change from these players on their own unless something drastic happens to shake them out of the rut.
Pavlich playing like Lance Whitnall, Sandilands hands on hips around the ground barely caring to make a contest and when he does tapping it to the opposition half the time and no show Mundy butchering the ball the few times he gets it. I think we are paying Mundy about $3000 per disposal at his current rate.
sportsmaniac89
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If you beleive that a new coach can come into aclub & change 16 years pour culture in 9 games you must beleive in pixies at the bottom of the garden.
I'm sorry.
If you pay for the best, you should expect the best.
Brenton Sanderson at Adelaide is a new coach and look at the way he's got them playing
Brendan McCartney at the Dogs has them playing hard, tough, competitive football.
Scott Watters at the Saints has them playing free-flowing exciting football
I wouldn't put any of them in the same league as Ross Lyon but all 3 are in my eyes getting their teams to perform better than Ross Lyon is.
As previously stated very hard to change over night & I am certain behind closed doors he is educating , even the 3 you have mentioned. It all takes time & more draft picks.
'Culture' would have to be the most overused and meaningless buzzword on this site and the Football media in general.
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Adelaide always had the talent that's why it was confusing they played so poorly, they just needed a change of scenery. Sanderson is riding what Craig/Rendell put in place from a personnel point of view.
The Dogs are playing the same as before, they again just needed a change.
The Saints look the same to me with 2 new small forwards, they also still retain a very good group of mids.
Lyon is finding out just how poor our list is in regards to depth. Combine that with form concerns for the players we rely heavily on and it equals disaster for any game plan.
Over here Roos & Kirk went on & on about it won a GF runner up in another & still always competitive & never ever had the best list .
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Yet like with any group of more than 2 people it does exist. Whether you want to believe you're an island or not, you walk into a situation with other people and they will effect you and you them... and so there's a carry over effect even after indivuals have left the group.
BUT you dont change culture directly, it's an end result. You change the details and for good or bad the culture sorts itself out.
Craig was saying last year that he had the best list in his time at crows.
The dogs are 1 win behind us & I saw them live in Canberra against the giants & they very average.
the saints are = with us & looked pour at times ,still defend like Lyon's taught them.
