Opinion Matthew Nicks: Adelaide's Coach (Part 2) - Full Support of the Board

[CrowBloke]

Which board member is Who?

Who's not a Board member.

Who's on first.

 

[CrowBloke]

Correct. Seed was planted in Blight’s head some time that season (didn’t say exactly when).

Explanation here.

APologies, only just got to your post; accidental repetition, my bad.

 

[CrowBloke]

I can add to this:

I liken a coach to that of a teacher. A coach isn’t about guaranteeing success, you need the students to follow suit. Like a teacher, he needs to help improving the herd, so ultimately they can graduate.

That's close.
+

I'm not sure about this John. Teaching and coaching have unique skills from each other. They're often not the same person.
For example...
Imagine a school teacher who is an expert in their field. They transfer their knowledge to the students. They provide technical instruction. They provide the knowledge gathered empirically over time. They teach a skill and reinforce this through teaching strategies until the taught skill is consolidated and finally established as something new the student can use in the future.

Kind of. Not quite. It depends on the Year level, for starters.

If you're not interested in teaching/Coaching, move on.
I taught both Year 12 Maths (Maths1 at the time, one end-of-year Exam) and English (2 end-of-year Exams back then).

Call me cynical, but at that level I saw it as my job to best prep students for their end-of-year Exam (my strategies for Year levels 8-12 was somewhat different, but I mostly had Senior classes, Years 10-12).
I treated Year 12 like a kind of game. For them, it was a defining year which either set them up for Uni/Tertiary, or anything else they wanted to pursue.
The Year 12 game was: "Sit the exam/s, pass the Exam/s, get into Uni or whatever" and my job was to ensure they got the best possible result, for whatever reason they were doing Year 12. What they did with those results after that was up to them.

Of course, I hoped we'd have fun and that they'd learn along the way.

In English, I swamped them with writing practice. In one of their 3-hour Exams they had to write 4 essays in 3 hours, that's 4 x 45 minutes (5 planning, 40 writing). I split them into 3 groups and each group had an essay due every 3 days. I promised them that hell or high water, if they got their essays in on time, I'd review and return them the next day. INSTANT feedback, very important. The prep and essay-reviewing/note-making took up all my spare time.
At first, they hated it, vehemently ; they'd been used to writing maybe one essay every 3 weeks. I demanded one every 3 days. They even protested to the English Faculty leader that I was working them too hard and my expectations were too high.
He asked me to back off! I refused.
Eventually (it took 3-4 months), after they were getting their work back next-day and improving essay by essay, they grew into the routine. I worked hard for them; they lifted and worked hard, for me. Lessons spent discussing the Literature and essay-writing skills. My nights spent prepping and marking.

Come end of year, they had become so proficient at planning/writing approx 500 words in 45-minutes, they killed it. Every one of that group (1981) passed Year 12 English.

I suppose an end-of-year Exam is a bit like a Grand Final, but Coaching AFL as far as I can see it is very, very different. My students were guaranteed to sit the Exam, for one. AFL Coaches have to get them there, much harder, but the concept of working hard for a goal is similar.
End of old fart ex-teacher rant

 

[CrowBloke]

I can also add to this:

If a student fails, you don’t just sack the teacher. Questions should be asked about what can be done to improve the failure rate.

You can't just sack the teacher; see below.
+

But at the same time, if a really poor teacher over time fails to produce any evidence they are improving as a teacher and their students continue to prove to be below average, then the teacher should be sacked.

Should, yes, absolutely. But years ago the Teacher's Union made sacking nearly impossible other than for sexual misconduct and/or drug/alcohol abuse. Believe it or not, teacher incompetence is not a sackable offence.

If a few students are failing, it's probably on them.
If most or all are failing (really only identified by external end-of-year exams which only occur now at the end of Year 12), it's on the teacher. No question.

Funny thing, though. Teachers (in Public Schools anyway) are very rarely sacked for incompetence! I don't know of any.
Either:
--- they get transferred, so they become the next school's problem, or
--- they are removed from the classroom and undergo "re-training".
Example: about 11 years ago, post-GFC, my biz went sour and I returned to Contract teaching which is vastly different from being employed permanently. NO security, or tenure.
Anyway, an older female teacher (permanent) received so many complaints about her teaching that she was re-assigned as a "supernumary" (surplus to needs) and supposed to undergo re-training, in-school. She refused to be transferred, but the school did not want her teaching.
Her incompetence was not a sackable offence --- ridiculous, right?
What actually happened is that she attended school, had no classes to teach, and sat in the Staffroom every day, reading The Advertiser and/or watching the lovely flatscreen TV in the Staffroom, on full pay with full Sick Leave/holiday privileges etc, and accruing Long Service Leave. To be fair, her attendance record was impeccable.
Wait, there's more.

Back in the 80's I was told that timetabling me to teach Year 12 English and Year 12 Maths was too hard and I was asked to teach one or the other. I chose Maths (marking was easier and totally objective) plus I loved the clear purity of Maths --- call it a weirdness.
The Year after I stopped teaching Year 12 English (another teacher took a Year's Leave), the Faculty pass rate dropped to 34%, from 3 Year 12 classes.
It hit hard. Parents were outraged, students were crushed on the back of English results so bad that many of them did not pass Year 12, and had to repeat.
34% is [insert scathing word here], a massive teacher fail across three classes (including the Faculty Leader who had told me previously to soften up in class and wind back my expectations). His slack, laissez-faire ineffectiveness had permeated the Faculty, but guess what?
No teaching changes were made, nor were they disciplined in any way.
No consequences for the teachers involved. Wow.

Just to clarify:
--- I never assumed or appropriated credit for my students' good results. Never. Their results were theirs, not mine. They did the work, they sat the Exams, they achieved or not. I might have facilitated, or worked a system out so that they could beat it, but that's it.
--- I am not trying to make the discussion about my teaching experiences, but posters above triggered a lot of good and bad memories. I loved teaching and I still miss it but, boyOboy, has it changed! and it's ruined now by rigged Exam result manipulations (Year 12 Exam result numbers are z-scores ie changed to reflect spread, not actual Exam mark --- a tough Exam with a top mark of say 40% is "adjusted" to a 0-to-100 spread ie the top mark of 40% becomes 100, which is not widely known or talked about).
Also, the negative energy in schools is overwhelming/draining.

An attempt at relevance: AFL Coaching is very different from that, clearly.
A Head Coach is accountable for poor results and is often sacked. Just not ours .
In the same way that Nicks does not make underperforming senior players accountable for sustained mediocrity by dropping them to the SANFL, The Crows' Board in its weak acceptance of mediocrity has accepted and in fact rewarded Nicks in spite of 10th place last year and a 0-1 start, then 0-4, now 3-6-1.
It's frustrating, lamentable, bewildering.
Someone pointed out above that to make Finals, the Crows'll most likely have to win 9 of their last 13 games at a minimum.
It'd take a miracle.
I'm such a mug supporter that I'd love to see it happen in spite of all factors indicating that it won't.
Barracking loyalty makes no sense, lol@me.
Great, 0500 and my insomnia rules supreme . You still here, Sanders ?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I can also add to this:

You can't just sack the teacher; see below.
+

Should, yes, absolutely. But years ago the Teacher's Union made sacking nearly impossible other than for sexual misconduct and/or drug/alcohol abuse. Believe it or not, teacher incompetence is not a sackable offence.

If a few students are failing, it's probably on them.
If most or all are failing (really only identified by external end-of-year exams which only occur now at the end of Year 12), it's on the teacher. No question.

Funny thing, though. Teachers (in Public Schools anyway) are very rarely sacked for incompetence! I don't know of any.
Either:
--- they get transferred, so they become the next school's problem, or
--- they are removed from the classroom and undergo "re-training".
Example: about 11 years ago, post-GFC, my biz went sour and I returned to Contract teaching which is vastly different from being employed permanently. NO security, or tenure.
Anyway, an older female teacher (permanent) received so many complaints about her teaching that she was re-assigned as a "supernumary" (surplus to needs) and supposed to undergo re-training, in-school. She refused to be transferred, but the school did not want her teaching.
Her incompetence was not a sackable offence --- ridiculous, right?
What actually happened is that she attended school, had no classes to teach, and sat in the Staffroom every day, reading The Advertiser and/or watching the lovely flatscreen TV in the Staffroom, on full pay with full Sick Leave/holiday privileges etc, and accruing Long Service Leave. To be fair, her attendance record was impeccable.
Wait, there's more.

Back in the 80's I was told that timetabling me to teach Year 12 English and Year 12 Maths was too hard and I was asked to teach one or the other. I chose Maths (marking was easier and totally objective) plus I loved the clear purity of Maths --- call it a weirdness.
The Year after I stopped teaching Year 12 English (another teacher took a Year's Leave), the Faculty pass rate dropped to 34%, from 3 Year 12 classes.
It hit hard. Parents were outraged, students were crushed on the back of English results so bad that many of them did not pass Year 12, and had to repeat.
34% is [insert scathing word here], a massive teacher fail across three classes (including the Faculty Leader who had told me previously to soften up in class and wind back my expectations). His slack, laissez-faire ineffectiveness had permeated the Faculty, but guess what?
No teaching changes were made, nor were they disciplined in any way.
No consequences for the teachers involved. Wow.

Just to clarify:
--- I never assumed or appropriated credit for my students' good results. Never. Their results were theirs, not mine. They did the work, they sat the Exams, they achieved or not. I might have facilitated, or worked a system out so that they could beat it, but that's it.
--- I am not trying to make the discussion about my teaching experiences, but posters above triggered a lot of good and bad memories. I loved teaching and I still miss it but, boyOboy, has it changed! and it's ruined now by rigged Exam result manipulations (Year 12 Exam result numbers are z-scores ie changed to reflect spread, not actual Exam mark --- a tough Exam with a top mark of say 40% is "adjusted" to a 0-to-100 spread ie the top mark of 40% becomes 100, which is not widely known or talked about).
Also, the negative energy in schools is overwhelming/draining.

An attempt at relevance: AFL Coaching is very different from that, clearly.
A Head Coach is accountable for poor results and is often sacked. Just not ours .
In the same way that Nicks does not make underperforming senior players accountable for sustained mediocrity by dropping them to the SANFL, The Crows' Board in its weak acceptance of mediocrity has accepted and in fact rewarded Nicks in spite of 10th place last year and a 0-1 start, then 0-4, now 3-6-1.
It's frustrating, lamentable, bewildering.
Someone pointed out above that to make Finals, the Crows'll most likely have to win 9 of their last 13 games at a minimum.
It'd take a miracle.
I'm such a mug supporter that I'd love to see it happen in spite of all factors indicating that it won't.
Barracking loyalty makes no sense, lol@me.
Great, 0500 and my insomnia rules supreme . You still here, Sanders ?

Thanks for sharing that experience

 

[FR0GGY]

I can also add to this:

You can't just sack the teacher; see below.
+

Should, yes, absolutely. But years ago the Teacher's Union made sacking nearly impossible other than for sexual misconduct and/or drug/alcohol abuse. Believe it or not, teacher incompetence is not a sackable offence.

If a few students are failing, it's probably on them.
If most or all are failing (really only identified by external end-of-year exams which only occur now at the end of Year 12), it's on the teacher. No question.

Funny thing, though. Teachers (in Public Schools anyway) are very rarely sacked for incompetence! I don't know of any.
Either:
--- they get transferred, so they become the next school's problem, or
--- they are removed from the classroom and undergo "re-training".
Example: about 11 years ago, post-GFC, my biz went sour and I returned to Contract teaching which is vastly different from being employed permanently. NO security, or tenure.
Anyway, an older female teacher (permanent) received so many complaints about her teaching that she was re-assigned as a "supernumary" (surplus to needs) and supposed to undergo re-training, in-school. She refused to be transferred, but the school did not want her teaching.
Her incompetence was not a sackable offence --- ridiculous, right?
What actually happened is that she attended school, had no classes to teach, and sat in the Staffroom every day, reading The Advertiser and/or watching the lovely flatscreen TV in the Staffroom, on full pay with full Sick Leave/holiday privileges etc, and accruing Long Service Leave. To be fair, her attendance record was impeccable.
Wait, there's more.

Back in the 80's I was told that timetabling me to teach Year 12 English and Year 12 Maths was too hard and I was asked to teach one or the other. I chose Maths (marking was easier and totally objective) plus I loved the clear purity of Maths --- call it a weirdness.
The Year after I stopped teaching Year 12 English (another teacher took a Year's Leave), the Faculty pass rate dropped to 34%, from 3 Year 12 classes.
It hit hard. Parents were outraged, students were crushed on the back of English results so bad that many of them did not pass Year 12, and had to repeat.
34% is [insert scathing word here], a massive teacher fail across three classes (including the Faculty Leader who had told me previously to soften up in class and wind back my expectations). His slack, laissez-faire ineffectiveness had permeated the Faculty, but guess what?
No teaching changes were made, nor were they disciplined in any way.
No consequences for the teachers involved. Wow.

Just to clarify:
--- I never assumed or appropriated credit for my students' good results. Never. Their results were theirs, not mine. They did the work, they sat the Exams, they achieved or not. I might have facilitated, or worked a system out so that they could beat it, but that's it.
--- I am not trying to make the discussion about my teaching experiences, but posters above triggered a lot of good and bad memories. I loved teaching and I still miss it but, boyOboy, has it changed! and it's ruined now by rigged Exam result manipulations (Year 12 Exam result numbers are z-scores ie changed to reflect spread, not actual Exam mark --- a tough Exam with a top mark of say 40% is "adjusted" to a 0-to-100 spread ie the top mark of 40% becomes 100, which is not widely known or talked about).
Also, the negative energy in schools is overwhelming/draining.

An attempt at relevance: AFL Coaching is very different from that, clearly.
A Head Coach is accountable for poor results and is often sacked. Just not ours .
In the same way that Nicks does not make underperforming senior players accountable for sustained mediocrity by dropping them to the SANFL, The Crows' Board in its weak acceptance of mediocrity has accepted and in fact rewarded Nicks in spite of 10th place last year and a 0-1 start, then 0-4, now 3-6-1.
It's frustrating, lamentable, bewildering.
Someone pointed out above that to make Finals, the Crows'll most likely have to win 9 of their last 13 games at a minimum.
It'd take a miracle.
I'm such a mug supporter that I'd love to see it happen in spite of all factors indicating that it won't.
Barracking loyalty makes no sense, lol@me.
Great, 0500 and my insomnia rules supreme . You still here, Sanders ?

Now your making us read 2 essays in 1/2hr, jeeze!

 

[CrowBloke]

Now your making us read 2 essays in 1/2hr, jeeze!

Snap Test tomorrow night!

 

[Sanders]

Snap Test tomorrow night!

Don’t need no education

 

[John Who]

You don’t sack a teacher automatically because you understand that a student failing could be due to a variety of factors outside of the teachers control. You also understand that what success means is very different for each child.

In the AFL there are very few factors completely outside of a coaches control. Even less at a well resourced club like ours. There is one single definition of success: winning. There are also only 18 jobs and countless of people who aspire to do the job.

If your suggestion is that we should be focussing on the process and not the outcome, what is the process that you see Nicks following that you rate highly?

You are putting words in my mouth, as I’ve never said I rated Nicks highly. I had voted “leaning yes”, not “firmly yes” in the poll.

Winning shouldn’t be the only factor to judging a coach’s credentials. It’s also about how he can turn his troops around when form dips, and whether the team can continue to improve. Then with regards to results, you got to look at what’s happening to the players when we lose, rather than just do a blanket blame at the coach.

So far, I’m equivocal in knowing if Nicks is the right coach to lead us into a premiership, but I’m ok with holding reservations on further opinion of Nicks until the end of the year. These are just my thoughts. I don’t really give a stuff what anyone else thinks.

 

[relapse]

By the sounds of it Will Goodings has been on Bigfooty again. I just heard he and Penbo discussing Graham Cornes' comments on Rowie's show last night and whether the Crows have a history of embracing mediocrity.

Will mentioned that he's been seeing a lot of comments online from die-hard supporters.about selection roundabouts with the same players being rotated through the side, gold passes and middling players being included in the leadership group (pretty much all the topics that have been frequently discussed on here)

He also brought up how there is concern with the supporters that the club doesn't seem angry enough about the performances given the club put finals on the agenda.

 

[John Who]

John, mate, seriously?
Brisbane (13th, when we played them, hardly "fair dinkum form") were decimated by injury and a shadow of their 2023 GF selves.
Collingwood (8th when we played them) had 3 of their 2023 GF top-22 out injured as well.

What, for 0-1-1 from the two games you mentioned, or for our 0-4 start, or for the current 3-6-1 mess?
No credit, from me.

Brisbane have been getting their mojo back in a big way in the last few games, likewise with the Pies. Brisbane in particular, has been having a huge surge in scoring output. Pies back to their scraping close wins. The point being, we’re now not far off the mark, unlike the debacle mess we were in at the round 4 mark.

 

[BigBoSS_Riot]

So far, I’m equivocal in knowing if Nicks is the right coach to lead us into a premiership, but I’m ok with holding reservations on further opinion of Nicks until the end of the year.

I can't see him leading us into a finals campaign at this point. You can draw a line through the magic p word.

These are just my thoughts. I don’t really don’t give a stuff what anyone else thinks.

What the **** are you doing on an online forum then? If you aren't interested in alternative viewpoints, you shouldn't be on the internet.

 

[FR0GGY]

What the **** are you doing on an online forum then? If you aren't interested in alternative viewpoints, you shouldn't be on the internet.

Welcome to the world of John Who, when soligo was subbed against Collingwood, John said it wasn’t a mistake.
Even when nicks came out and said we made an error, it apparently still wasn’t a mistake.

 

[George Kramer]

You are putting words in my mouth, as I’ve never said I rated Nicks highly. I had voted “leaning yes”, not “firmly yes” in the poll.

Winning shouldn’t be the only factor to judging a coach’s credentials. It’s also about how he can turn his troops around when form dips, and whether the team can continue to improve. Then with regards to results, you got to look at what’s happening to the players when we lose, rather than just do a blanket blame at the coach.

So far, I’m equivocal in knowing if Nicks is the right coach to lead us into a premiership, but I’m ok with holding reservations on further opinion of Nicks until the end of the year. These are just my thoughts. I don’t really give a stuff what anyone else thinks.

So you would have held off re-signing him early? Had we done that we wouldn’t need to sack him, we just don’t renew his contract.

 

[George Kramer]

By the sounds of it Will Goodings has been on Bigfooty again. I just heard he and Penbo discussing Graham Cornes' comments on Rowie's show last night and whether the Crows have a history of embracing mediocrity.

Will mentioned that he's been seeing a lot of comments online from die-hard supporters.about selection roundabouts with the same players being rotated through the side, gold passes and middling players being included in the leadership group (pretty much all the topics that have been frequently discussed on here)

He also brought up how there is concern with the supporters that the club doesn't seem angry enough about the performances given the club put finals on the agenda.

I’m Will

 

[1970crow]

spenze 1970crow confirm?

Before my time here.

 

[Stephen2]

Welcome to the world of John Who, when soligo was subbed against Collingwood, John said it wasn’t a mistake.
Even when nicks came out and said we made an error, it apparently still wasn’t a mistake.

In fairness, did you travel to an alternate world where Soligo wasn't subbed and watch the end of the game??

No! Didn't think so mate. QED

 

[Samcro24]

I’m Will

I’m Will

 

[1970crow]

Brisbane have been getting their mojo back in a big way in the last few games, likewise with the Pies. Brisbane in particular, has been having a huge surge in scoring output. Pies back to their scraping close wins. The point being, we’re now not far off the mark, unlike the debacle mess we were in at the round 4 mark.

But both didn't too well against us, 13th placed with a 3-6-1 record, so they can't be going that well.

 

[CrowBloke]

Thanks for sharing that experience

Yeah , apologies to the whole thread.
It was 0400, insomnia was making my mind gallop; kinda explains all the too-long posts, eh?

 

[GreyCrow]

By the sounds of it Will Goodings has been on Bigfooty again. I just heard he and Penbo discussing Graham Cornes' comments on Rowie's show last night and whether the Crows have a history of embracing mediocrity.

Will mentioned that he's been seeing a lot of comments online from die-hard supporters.about selection roundabouts with the same players being rotated through the side, gold passes and middling players being included in the leadership group (pretty much all the topics that have been frequently discussed on here)

He also brought up how there is concern with the supporters that the club doesn't seem angry enough about the performances given the club put finals on the agenda.

Hi Will whoever you are you sizzling hunk of man

 

[GreyCrow]

Brisbane have been getting their mojo back in a big way in the last few games, likewise with the Pies. Brisbane in particular, has been having a huge surge in scoring output. Pies back to their scraping close wins. The point being, we’re now not far off the mark, unlike the debacle mess we were in at the round 4 mark.

Brisbane had Tigers Crows and Suns is the equivalent to our WC , Richmond and Hawthorn - its not rated at all

Pies had Crows , Eagles , Blues and Bombers for a draw , 2 under a goal win and a smacking of WC

And you want to argue that they are both form teams?

 

[1970crow]

Hi Will whoever you are you sizzling hunk of man

Love Will and Pembo. But when it comes to footy, Pembo can be a bit compromised.

 

[skam85]

By the sounds of it Will Goodings has been on Bigfooty again. I just heard he and Penbo discussing Graham Cornes' comments on Rowie's show last night and whether the Crows have a history of embracing mediocrity.

Will mentioned that he's been seeing a lot of comments online from die-hard supporters.about selection roundabouts with the same players being rotated through the side, gold passes and middling players being included in the leadership group (pretty much all the topics that have been frequently discussed on here)

He also brought up how there is concern with the supporters that the club doesn't seem angry enough about the performances given the club put finals on the agenda.

I noticed Graham also used a phrase I've previously dropped here over the years "persecution complex"

 

[skam85]

Brisbane have been getting their mojo back in a big way in the last few games, likewise with the Pies. Brisbane in particular, has been having a huge surge in scoring output. Pies back to their scraping close wins. The point being, we’re now not far off the mark, unlike the debacle mess we were in at the round 4 mark.

Brisbane scored 163 last week against a bottom team with 25 fit players.

The four games prior, they averaged 66.3 points per game.