Mickey Arthur - Time to Go

[amer]

What I can't get my head around is how the coach of the Australian cricket team can't get a team full of shit players to be the best in the world.

 

[dan warna]

talent runs thin.
Nothing a coach can do about it.
10 years ago we had 1 batsman who averaged under 50.
Today we have 1 batsman who averages over 40....
We are in a border type scenario.
As good as clarke is as a batsman, I don't think he has shown the steel and resolve as a leader that border did.
Further, our future isn't in any talented batsmen coming through, its in our bowlers IMO.
Much like australia's resurgence through guys like mcdermott, hughes, Warne, etc in the late 80s, this time it will be pattinson, cummins, starc coming through.
Siddle is the warhorse like lawson was, to escort the new guard in once the legends have passed.
Batting talent...piffle.
On current form, wade is like our 3rd or 4th best batsman.....
Clarke has become a great batsman, better than I and many others anticipated. At the start of his career, few, although some did, see him as a potential great, his early form did not indicate his upcoming dominance.
Still to see any sign of great leadership. At 30 something, not in the league of waugh, punter, border, or even tubs.
Border led some rubbish teams and so did punter towards the end of his captaincy.

 

[PrideOf]

Your post would be correct.. if it was racism. It isn't racism, its xenophobia.

Please explain?

 

[dajesmac]

Hughes, Smith, Khawaja, Burns, M.Marsh - I don't think our batting prospects are that grave. Just need experience, and confidence.

Did we underutilise the talents of Rogers, Hodge, Dussey, Voges etc when they were at their peak? I wonder how things would look if we looked to them in 2009-2012, rather than shot straight to youth.

 

[The Passenger]

Hughes, Smith, Khawaja, Burns, M.Marsh - I don't think our batting prospects are that grave. Just need experience, and confidence.

Did we underutilise the talents of Rogers, Hodge, Dussey, Voges etc when they were at their peak? I wonder how things would look if we looked to them in 2009-2012, rather than shot straight to youth.

there is a lot of batting talent around, but it's mind boggling inconsistent.

 

[Caesar]

Most of it is young.

We also have a very changed first class scene. Young players can't get into county cricket any more, which means they are playing less than half the cricket they used to and not getting exposed to swing bowling and greentops at a young age. Those who do get in find themselves in a depleted competition compared to 5-10 years ago.

The glut of good batsmen of the last decade has not been good either. It's kept a lot of young guys out of Shield teams for quite a while.

 

[Gough]

Most of it is young.

We also have a very changed first class scene. Young players can't get into county cricket any more, which means they are playing less than half the cricket they used to and not getting exposed to swing bowling and greentops at a young age. Those who do get in find themselves in a depleted competition compared to 5-10 years ago.

The glut of good batsmen of the last decade has not been good either. It's kept a lot of young guys out of Shield teams for quite a while.

20 years ago hardly any Australians played county cricket, various European court rulings since then have made it a lot easier for Australians to play over there. There are more Australian cricketers wintering in England now than there ever has been.

 

[Caesar]

20 years ago hardly any Australians played county cricket, various European court rulings since then have made it a lot easier for Australians to play over there. There are more Australian cricketers wintering in England now than there ever has been.

Really? I know there was a lot between 2003 and 2008 because of Kolpak, but since then the rules have been tightened up again.

 

[Underdog]

Hughes, Smith, Khawaja, Burns, M.Marsh - I don't think our batting prospects are that grave. Just need experience, and confidence.

Did we underutilise the talents of Rogers, Hodge, Dussey, Voges etc when they were at their peak? I wonder how things would look if we looked to them in 2009-2012, rather than shot straight to youth.

Interesting point.

Instead we might now have had a solid, experienced core who mightn't be great but would provide a good platform for introducing young talent into the side. Instead we have just a few experienced players and a heap of inexperienced.

 

[The Passenger]

i don't really keep up to date with the rules but the fact our batsmen aren't as good as they once were mean they are much less attractive to english counties.

but i was never entirely convinced county cricket was great for our guys back then when england were particularly weak. it did give them experience in different conditions and taught them how to live away from home.

in saying that sam robson plays county cricket and does reasonably well averaging 37.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/272485.html

he's got an english passport so that makes him an attractive county prospect.

i don't know if he is able to play for both countries or what the story is but he's never really been talked about as playing for NSW despite the fact he scores pretty heavily in first grade in sydney and is a very elegant looking batsmen.

http://www.sydneygrade.nsw.cricket....areerbatting.asp&loc1/playercareerbatting.asp

you won't find many 23 years old running around first grade in australia averaging 60, 23 (only 3 innings), 47 and 54 over the last 4 seasons. i'm also not sure why he only played 8 games this season. i don't think it was injury.

 

[Mateyman]

Today we have 2 batsman who averages over 40....

 

[sherb]

What I can't get my head around is how the coach of the Australian cricket team can't get a team full of shit players to be the best in the world.

Yeah, mind boggling isn't it?

 

[Caesar]

Did we underutilise the talents of Rogers, Hodge, Dussey, Voges etc when they were at their peak? I wonder how things would look if we looked to them in 2009-2012, rather than shot straight to youth.

Interesting point.

Instead we might now have had a solid, experienced core who mightn't be great but would provide a good platform for introducing young talent into the side. Instead we have just a few experienced players and a heap of inexperienced.

Nah, I disagree. During those years we had plenty of experience in the team. Up until end of 2012 our top 6 was 2 veterans (Ponting and Hussey), 2 experienced guys with plenty of years left in them (Watson and Clarke) and 2 young guys. That's a really good balance.

The problem we had was:

1) none of the young guys who came into the side really came on as quickly as expected
2) Watson entered a long period of bad form
2) Ponting and Hussey both retired at the same time

So we went from 4 experienced batsmen to 2, one of whom is on the verge of being dropped, and with nobody up to scratch to replace them.

In hindsight, I think the biggest error we made was in 2009-2010 when we had no young guys in the team. The only 'newbie' was North. I presume they thought he would be a good transitional player - older, experienced, good leader, etc. If he'd worked out, then we would have a battle-hardened North, Clarke and Watson in the middle order right now and 3 younger guys learning around them. Unfortunately North failed miserably. If we'd given a young player the gig instead, even if they weren't as good as him, we might have someone with a bit more experience in the side now.

The other thing I think we could have maybe done is dumped Ponting earlier and replaced him with someone like Rogers. It would have been a ballsy call, but Rogers would have had more shelf life than Ponting and would probably still be in the side now.

But it's a bit late for all that now.

 

[Underdog]

 

[dajesmac]

Nah, I disagree. During those years we had plenty of experience in the team. Up until end of 2012 our top 6 was 2 veterans (Ponting and Hussey), 2 experienced guys with plenty of years left in them (Watson and Clarke) and 2 young guys. That's a really good balance.

The problem we had was:

1) none of the young guys who came into the side really came on as quickly as expected
2) Watson entered a long period of bad form
2) Ponting and Hussey both retired at the same time

So we went from 4 experienced batsmen to 2, one of whom is on the verge of being dropped, and with nobody up to scratch to replace them.

In hindsight, I think the biggest error we made was in 2009-2010 when we had no young guys in the team. The only 'newbie' was North. I presume they thought he would be a good transitional player - older, experienced, good leader, etc. If he'd worked out, then we would have a battle-hardened North, Clarke and Watson in the middle order right now and 3 younger guys learning around them. Unfortunately North failed miserably. If we'd given a young player the gig instead, even if they weren't as good as him, we might have someone with a bit more experience in the side now.

The other thing I think we could have maybe done is dumped Ponting earlier and replaced him with someone like Rogers. It would have been a ballsy call, but Rogers would have had more shelf life than Ponting and would probably still be in the side now.

But it's a bit late for all that now.

Hughes, Smith and Khawaja were all about 19/20/21 when they were thrust into the deep end. I can't help but think if we'd played names like Hodge, Rogers, Voges, Dussey etc earlier, those three wouldn't have been so exposed at such a young age. The problem we're facing now is, Hughes, Smith and Khawaja are only now approaching the sort of ability that is required at Test level. We seemed eager to skip a generation of batsmen, and we've yielded very poor results since. And at 23/4 I think those three are really only now the right sort of age to be in Test team calculations.

Shaun Marsh is another one I hope we haven't given up on. Extremely talented, and despite that one series against India has shown he can perform at test level. He's also exactly the right age.

 

[Caesar]

I don't know what we'd have gained by including those guys in the team though. Playing Hughes, Smith and Khawaja may have been a bit premature but it still provided them with valuable experience. The reason they're starting to approach the level of ability they need at Test level is because they've been exposed to Test cricket.

Keeping them out of the team for longer in favour of old guys like Hodge and David Hussey, who are basically contemporaries of guys like Ponting, Katich and Mike Hussey, would have made the side way too top heavy. You would have had even more of them retiring at the same time and the younger guys being even more inexperienced when the time came to replace them.

 

[dajesmac]

I don't know what we'd have gained by including those guys in the team though. Playing Hughes, Smith and Khawaja may have been a bit premature but it still provided them with valuable experience. The reason they're starting to approach the level of ability they need at Test level is because they've been exposed to Test cricket.

Keeping them out of the team for longer in favour of old guys like Hodge and David Hussey, who are basically contemporaries of guys like Ponting, Katich and Mike Hussey, would have made the side way too top heavy. You would have had even more of them retiring at the same time and the younger guys being even more inexperienced when the time came to replace them.

I don't necessarily outright disagree with you but I think this point is at least debatable. Hughes and Smith in particular had their confidence depleted when they first joined the side, and failed. Alot of players don't come back from that. Look at Tom Swift at West Coast for example.

I agree with your second point re: experience. However if Hughes and Smith had been gently eased into the side over time, rather than being plunged into the deep end, they wouldn't have be as maligned or have as much pressure on them as they do now. It just feels like we've gone from one extreme to the other, and I'm wondering if we could have made this transition more smoothly over time.

 

[dajesmac]

As for what we would have gained - better results over the last 2-3 years.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

If guys like Warne and Ian Chappell believe the Australian cricket team doesn't even need a coach, it makes you wonder how much influence Mickey Arthur can actually have.

 

[Caesar]

I reckon Hughes was as ready as he'd ever be when he was brought into the Test team. He was taking bowlers apart at Shield level, he needed the challenge of Test cricket. The fact he failed wasn't really an indictment of him not being ready - it was just him getting his weaknesses found out by better bowlers. If he'd been left in the Shield he would have never been forced to confront those problems.

Smith too had some pretty significant flaws in his technique exposed at Test level, and it's caused him to become a better player for it. His selection was definitely premature, but I think in the long run it's been valuable.

These guys are better off learning these lessons in their early 20s than their late 20s. I think the results over the last 2-3 years have been pretty acceptable as long as we start to see the dividends of them in the next 2-3.

 

[sherb]

If guys like Warne and Ian Chappell believe the Australian cricket team doesn't even need a coach, it makes you wonder how much influence Mickey Arthur can actually have.

Ian Chappell is stuck in the 70s.

Warne doesn't handle authority well.

Hardly a surprising attitude from either.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Please explain?

Well Australia is made of many different races and last time I checked Mickey Arthur was fairly white and probably not a "coloured". Therefore how can it be racism from people of English descent on other people of English descent. If anything it is Xenophobia which is fear of foreign people, not relating to race.

 

[PrideOf]

Well Australia is made of many different races and last time I checked Mickey Arthur was fairly white and probably not a "coloured". Therefore how can it be racism from people of English descent on other people of English descent. If anything it is Xenophobia which is fear of foreign people, not relating to race.

Obvious Pauline Hanson reference missed. Carry on.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Obvious Pauline Hanson reference missed. Carry on.

Haha, woops

 

[frankrizzo]

If guys like Warne and Ian Chappell believe the Australian cricket team doesn't even need a coach, it makes you wonder how much influence Mickey Arthur can actually have.

Chappell and warne both apparently think all coaches are pointless and repeat that tired line over and over, they then spend their time analyzing who the best and worst coaches are.