Toast Mitch Grigg - Fare Thee Well, We Hardly Knew Ye

[dylan123]

The thing that doesn't really seem to fit in with all this Campo stuff is he was in under Walsh and perhaps had some of his opinions challenged given Grigg and CEY played a number of games under Walsh but the talk was Walsh was a fan and Campo was also the one selected to fill in once we lost Walsh.

Now if he had this prejudged opinions of these players, you think there would have been some clash between him and Walsh during his time as our coach. If that was the case you'd have also thought the admin would have been aware and that might have been someone Walsh would have looked to have moved on instead of kept.

There's any number of reasons really I suppose, but you'd think if Campo had basically already judged some of these younger guys as is kind of suggested in them not being given a proper shot, that would have certainly been called out when Walsh was our coach. Just doesn't really add up although it's obviously one of the more believable things as it's hard to figure out why some of these guys don't get more of an opportunity at times.

Also, are we expecting any coaching changes or anyone to come in to take over Noble's position? Not sure when coaches usually sign positions at clubs but thought we might have heard something by now on that if anything was happening?

 

[MRB37]

The thing that doesn't really seem to fit in with all this Campo stuff is he was in under Walsh and perhaps had some of his opinions challenged given Grigg and CEY played a number of games under Walsh but the talk was Walsh was a fan and Campo was also the one selected to fill in once we lost Walsh.

Now if he had this prejudged opinions of these players, you think there would have been some clash between him and Walsh during his time as our coach. If that was the case you'd have also thought the admin would have been aware and that might have been someone Walsh would have looked to have moved on instead of kept.

There's any number of reasons really I suppose, but you'd think if Campo had basically already judged some of these younger guys as is kind of suggested in them not being given a proper shot, that would have certainly been called out when Walsh was our coach. Just doesn't really add up although it's obviously one of the more believable things as it's hard to figure out why some of these guys don't get more of an opportunity at times.

Also, are we expecting any coaching changes or anyone to come in to take over Noble's position? Not sure when coaches usually sign positions at clubs but thought we might have heard something by now on that if anything was happening?

It's entirely possible for Walsh to have different opinions on players than Campo, but still respect his skills as an assistant at the end of the day. Plus Walsh was the man in the big chair and Campo was an assistant, so maybe he was willing to give his input on who be selected, but ultimately accept Walsh's call that blokes like CEY and Grigg get played.

I imagine selection panels would kind of be like here. You'd get the first 16-18 blokes and everyone probably agrees on them and they select themselves without any fuss and then it's the last 4-5 blokes in the side you might get some differing opinions on.

 

[dylan123]

So at the end of the day, it's not really Campo holding those guys out of the team then is it?

 

[DD#23]

It's entirely possible for Walsh to have different opinions on players than Campo, but still respect his skills as an assistant at the end of the day. Plus Walsh was the man in the big chair and Campo was an assistant, so maybe he was willing to give his input on who be selected, but ultimately accept Walsh's call that blokes like CEY and Grigg get played.

I imagine selection panels would kind of be like here. You'd get the first 16-18 blokes and everyone probably agrees on them and they select themselves without any fuss and then it's the last 4-5 blokes in the side you might get some differing opinions on.

what choice does a new coach have but to put faith in his assistants opinions on the player stock they're inheriting? Especially someone who's practically rusted on at this stage like Campo.

not Walsh or Pyke's fault that Campo picks favourites and can't rate people objectively. Walsh was clearly going to wrestle back the reigns mid-season last year. I can only hope Pyke is getting ready to say GAGF as well, before the NAB Challenge would be nice.

 

[MRB37]

So at the end of the day, it's not really Campo holding those guys out of the team then is it?

I guess it may depend on how much control a head coach is willing to an give up to his assistant(s) I guess. Walsh may have told Campo who he wanted in while Sando and Pyke may let Campo have more of a say in who he wants in over his line.

 

[Thinker]

So who else besides CEY is on Campo's "non favourite" list that we can look forward to never being given a legit chance?

Well Wiggy only got a one year extension...
Hope it's not the case. He's a talented player but I've heard he's had a pretty big off season so has some work to do.

 

[Thinker]

One thing that always struck me about Walsh is he publicly made it very clear early on that it was a employer/employee relationship and he wasn't there to be friends with the players, he was the boss and that was it. That seems radically different to the Sando/Campo style where they seem very chummy with a small group of players (and maybe to the detriment of those not in the circle).

No idea what Pyke is like mind you, so hard to judge him after just one year.

Pyke is definitely in the Walshy mode.

 

[Mismatched]

what choice does a new coach have but to put faith in his assistants opinions on the player stock they're inheriting? Especially someone who's practically rusted on at this stage like Campo.

not Walsh or Pyke's fault that Campo picks favourites and can't rate people objectively. Walsh was clearly going to wrestle back the reigns mid-season last year. I can only hope Pyke is getting ready to say GAGF as well, before the NAB Challenge would be nice.

The other thing to remember is the unprecedentedly difficult situation Pyke was in taking over our side. Death of senior coach, side had just made 2nd week of finals under an interim coach who had received a significant groundswell of support.

Pyke would have been treading reasonably carefully last season. Even under Walsh he treaded carefully for the first half a season, before forecasting a tougher approach. I think, or at least i hope we'll start to see him exert his influence a little more and we'll see a few more changes.

 

[DD#23]

The other thing to remember is the unprecedentedly difficult situation Pyke was in taking over our side. Death of senior coach, side had just made 2nd week of finals under an interim coach who had received a significant groundswell of support.

Pyke would have been treading reasonably carefully last season. Even under Walsh he treaded carefully for the first half a season, before forecasting a tougher approach. I think, or at least i hope we'll start to see him exert his influence a little more and we'll see a few more changes.

this is my exact read on it too, I just hope hope hope he does exert his influence, and quickly.

I've said before that Pyke doesn't seem the type who's going to sit back and let other people drive the boat if they're not doing it the way he wants it. He's here because he wants to win a premiership but I think you have to say he was a touch over-cautious last year. At least he can look at our finals serious this year and the tapes from the last few campaigns and realise that they're not just events but a trend.

 

[Vader]

So at the end of the day, it's not really Campo holding those guys out of the team then is it?

No.. that's just the excuse people use because they can't accept that CEY just isn't quite good enough to make it at AFL level.

Campo doesn't have the final say. He did when he was senior coach, but he didn't before then, and he certainly didn't after Pyke was appointed. There's only one reason why CEY hasn't played more AFL football - and that's CEY himself.

 

[whitey_1975]

No.. that's just the excuse people use because they can't accept that CEY just isn't quite good enough to make it at AFL level.

Campo doesn't have the final say. He did when he was senior coach, but he didn't before then, and he certainly didn't after Pyke was appointed. There's only one reason why CEY hasn't played more AFL football - and that's CEY himself.

Lol. As usual u only remember what u want. So your saying Walsh was wrong? Keep defending VB and Mackay though.

 

[Vader]

Lol. As usual u only remember what u want. So your saying Walsh was wrong? Keep defending VB and Mackay though.

I'm not sure why everyone regards Walsh as being some great Messiah, who could do no wrong. Adelaide's record under him was 7-5. Campo went 6-3 for the rest of the H&A season, and 1-1 in the Finals. I think he was great for Adelaide's culture, which had developed a degree of complacency, but his actual coaching record isn't all that good.

CEY was drafted in 2011. Since then we've had 5 senior coaches - Craig, Bickley, Walsh, Camporeale, Pyke. Walsh is the only one who thought CEY was worth selecting. Given Walsh's coaching record, and what I've seen of CEY when he's played, I think I'll go with the majority coaches on this one.

And given that you've chosen to bring VB & Mackay into the discussion.. Walsh selected both players for every game he coached. So.. is he a selection genius (selecting CEY), or a complete numpty (selecting VB & Mackay)? You can't have it both ways.

For what it's worth, I haven't defended VB in a very long time...

 

[whitey_1975]

I'm not sure why everyone regards Walsh as being some great Messiah, who could do no wrong. Adelaide's record under him was 7-5. Campo went 6-3 for the rest of the H&A season, and 1-1 in the Finals. I think he was great for Adelaide's culture, which had developed a degree of complacency, but his actual coaching record isn't all that good.

CEY was drafted in 2011. Since then we've had 5 senior coaches - Craig, Bickley, Walsh, Camporeale, Pyke. Walsh is the only one who thought CEY was worth selecting. Given Walsh's coaching record, and what I've seen of CEY when he's played, I think I'll go with the majority coaches on this one.

And given that you've chosen to bring VB & Mackay into the discussion.. Walsh selected both players for every game he coached. So.. is he a selection genius (selecting CEY), or a complete numpty (selecting VB & Mackay)? You can't have it both ways.

For what it's worth, I haven't defended VB in a very long time...

Walsh was about to get rid of VB and Mackay, not CEY. The fact you defended VB and Mackay at all is more the issue. And the 7-5 record is called short term pain long term gain something this club has shown little of before Walsh and since. I really hope Pyke does that this year or it will be more of the same s**t we have endured as fans for the last 19 years and counting, bar that bright 6 months of Walsh's tenure.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Well Wiggy only got a one year extension...
Hope it's not the case. He's a talented player but I've heard he's had a pretty big off season so has some work to do.

Do you mean he's partied extra hard?

What the hell is going on down there? That is specifically what good culture prevents happening

 

[Vader]

Walsh was about to get rid of VB and Mackay, not CEY.

Supposition, not fact.

The fact you defended VB and Mackay at all is more the issue. And the 7-5 record is called short term pain long term gain something this club has shown little of before Walsh and since. I really hope Pyke does that this year or it will be more of the same s**t we have endured as fans for the last 19 years and counting, bar that bright 6 months of Walsh's tenure.

Call it what you like - but Adelaide's record in the second half of the year, with the same squad, was significantly better than it was under Walsh's tutelage.

As I said, I think Walsh did great things for Adelaide's culture. Adelaide had developed a culture of complacency - make the finals, and the rest will take care of itself. Walsh (and Fagan) brought that to an abrupt end, and we should be eternally grateful to him for achieving that. His mantra of "elite standards" will stand the club in good stead going forward.

However, his record as coach is questionable - with the ongoing selection of CEY (and VB, and Mackay) as some of the questionable decisions he made.

 

[whitey_1975]

Supposition, not fact.

Call it what you like - but Adelaide's record in the second half of the year, with the same squad, was significantly better than it was under Walsh's tutelage.

As I said, I think Walsh did great things for Adelaide's culture. Adelaide had developed a culture of complacency - make the finals, and the rest will take care of itself. Walsh (and Fagan) brought that to an abrupt end, and we should be eternally grateful to him for achieving that. His mantra of "elite standards" will stand the club in good stead going forward.

However, his record as coach is questionable - with the ongoing selection of CEY (and VB, and Mackay) as some of the questionable decisions he made.

And therin lies my point. Campo is short sighted and reverts to what he wants ( the here and now, play experience) undoing Walshs good work. (and it kept costing us this year too) And we were so good against the Hawks in finals under Campo Bulldogs in finals we will never lose.

Put it this way.
Campo, Craig> Must repeat and work harder. Always make finals get respect.
Walsh, please Pyke but not so far> Short term loss, maybe lose experience, but if it doesn't stand up it goes. Maybe miss finals in 2015, who knows? Weed out the s**t, bring in the upside youth, show faith and a long term goal and be a real flag threat for 2017-2020+. That was Walshs game and he stuck to his vision and the players bought in to it.

You have become a sucker for good instead of aiming for greatness.

 

[DD#23]

Pyke is definitely in the Walshy mode.

that's good to hear, clearly a more conservative version however. Normally I'd call that a good thing but I feel like we've only got a tight window of opportunity at the moment and more should have been done to refresh the side THIS year. Hopefully his conservatism doesn't come back to bite us.

Supposition, not fact.

Call it what you like - but Adelaide's record in the second half of the year, with the same squad, was significantly better than it was under Walsh's tutelage.

As I said, I think Walsh did great things for Adelaide's culture. Adelaide had developed a culture of complacency - make the finals, and the rest will take care of itself. Walsh (and Fagan) brought that to an abrupt end, and we should be eternally grateful to him for achieving that. His mantra of "elite standards" will stand the club in good stead going forward.

However, his record as coach is questionable - with the ongoing selection of CEY (and VB, and Mackay) as some of the questionable decisions he made.

now come on, don't even go there mate that had nothing to do with who took the reigns and everything to do with the incredible relationship Walsh developed with the players in such a short time and them pulling their fingers out to achieve something for him.

as for bagging CEY again it appears they still don't beam any Crows game into the captial, your bias against him is embarassing. He was far from our worst performed player and was even better before Thommo returned to hog every centre bounce. Wright was the biggest selection blunder by FAR, but what use is he as a whipping boy now he's left the club right?

 

[dylan123]

I'm not sure why everyone regards Walsh as being some great Messiah, who could do no wrong. Adelaide's record under him was 7-5. Campo went 6-3 for the rest of the H&A season, and 1-1 in the Finals. I think he was great for Adelaide's culture, which had developed a degree of complacency, but his actual coaching record isn't all that good.

It's more the fact that we saw CEY play some pretty good footy under Walsh. He was given a chance thanks to Walsh and he seemed to step up pretty well to AFL level for really his first proper crack at the level.

Think he's been hard done by to not be given another shot after what he was able to do under Walsh. Also unlucky that we had so few injuries this year/played Thompson just about every week. I suppose I just don't really buy into Campo being the the guy that's holding all these players back from playing and if he was to go we'd suddenly get a burst of young players getting games.

 

[whitey_1975]

Rewind 2015. Game 1 featured a centreline of Sloane, Danger, Crouches and CEY. Thommo injured. We looked awesome and I remember many people on here saying at the time "who needs Thommo". 2 years later and he signs a 1 year extension. Oh my how we have gone backwards.
Grigg looked great too. Never seen CEY or Grigg since but have continued to place misguided faith in Thommo, VB and Mackay to our long term detriment!!!!!!!!
Wanna know why people love Walsh despite his short tenure? Cause that man conversation with Thommo would have happened and he would be playing SANFL all 2016. And now retired. Ditto Mackay. VB has more class than both to at least see he needed to go for the good of the team. I respect him for that way more than I will Thommo for being a selfish mofo.( and the list people and coaches who wanted him to go around again, shame)

 

[jackster83]

The guys at the lower end of our squad all made massive inroads under Walsh.

Hartigan, Grigg, CEY, Kelly, Atkins, Knight, even Siggins was starting to show good signs.

While Atkins and Hartigan are now established, I don't sense the same level of interest in our wider squad from our current coaching group.

 

[DD#23]

The guys at the lower end of our squad all made massive inroads under Walsh.

Hartigan, Grigg, CEY, Kelly, Atkins, Knight, even Siggins was starting to show good signs.

While Atkins and Hartigan are now established, I don't sense the same level of interest in our wider squad from our current coaching group.

the difference? Under Walsh those guys believed that hard work and performance would be rewarded with opportunities. From where I'm standing that has gone out the window.

now I agree with what seems to be majority on here that players do need to know they have to "earn" their opportunities, but that DOESN'T mean they need to tear up the SANFL like Dangerfield would for 6 weeks to get a consideration. ESPECIALLY not when there are blokes in the firsts struggling to get a ******* kick.

if you want to set performance standards you set them for everybody. If you're a senior player with a known ceiling you get two or three lives to turn your form around and deliver or you're ******* gone. I don't care if the next best guy is on debut or if he's had 10 games in 5 years, if he's the next best in the SANFL he's done enough to earn his chance. At least give him two or three games and see how he goes - if he struggles at least the guy you dropped in the first place has found some touch in the SANFL instead of watching the ball fly past him for 3 weeks.

you also send the message to the entire squad that you need to be performing if you want to play in the AFL - that goes for players wanting to hold their spots and players who are pushing for spots. The only message we sent this year is that we have a 22 in mind and unless someone does a LTI we don't want to change it. Not exactly inspiring for a young player if you're only hope is for someone else to cop an injury, and even when we did cop injuries to guys like Smith and Seedsman who did we look to? Wigg has heaps of experience on the HBF, want to try him? Nah lets play Henderson to I dunno, try to boost our free agency compo? Just a joke IMO, the number of wasted opportunities this year, organic growth my arse.

EDIT: I will however add that playing McGovern this year and sticking with him like we did Cameron last year was great to see and hopefully we see the same sort of benefit in doing so next year, so its not all bad.

 

[CrowinNT]

the difference? Under Walsh those guys believed that hard work and performance would be rewarded with opportunities. From where I'm standing that has gone out the window.

now I agree with what seems to be majority on here that players do need to know they have to "earn" their opportunities, but that DOESN'T mean they need to tear up the SANFL like Dangerfield would for 6 weeks to get a consideration. ESPECIALLY not when there are blokes in the firsts struggling to get a ******* kick.

if you want to set performance standards you set them for everybody. If you're a senior player with a known ceiling you get two or three lives to turn your form around and deliver or you're ******* gone. I don't care if the next best guy is on debut or if he's had 10 games in 5 years, if he's the next best in the SANFL he's done enough to earn his chance. At least give him two or three games and see how he goes - if he struggles at least the guy you dropped in the first place has found some touch in the SANFL instead of watching the ball fly past him for 3 weeks.

you also send the message to the entire squad that you need to be performing if you want to play in the AFL - that goes for players wanting to hold their spots and players who are pushing for spots. The only message we sent this year is that we have a 22 in mind and unless someone does a LTI we don't want to change it. Not exactly inspiring for a young player if you're only hope is for someone else to cop an injury, and even when we did cop injuries to guys like Smith and Seedsman who did we look to? Wigg has heaps of experience on the HBF, want to try him? Nah lets play Henderson to I dunno, try to boost our free agency compo? Just a joke IMO, the number of wasted opportunities this year, organic growth my arse.

I agree with this. Walshy was about "improving" the side. After the Brisbane game he said exactly this and would look to see who in the SANFL would earn a spot. He was going to make changes. He created a lot of belief and confidence in our young guys.

 

[MRB37]

Supposition, not fact.

Call it what you like - but Adelaide's record in the second half of the year, with the same squad, was significantly better than it was under Walsh's tutelage.

As I said, I think Walsh did great things for Adelaide's culture. Adelaide had developed a culture of complacency - make the finals, and the rest will take care of itself. Walsh (and Fagan) brought that to an abrupt end, and we should be eternally grateful to him for achieving that. His mantra of "elite standards" will stand the club in good stead going forward.

However, his record as coach is questionable - with the ongoing selection of CEY (and VB, and Mackay) as some of the questionable decisions he made.

We had more than a few easy ones in the 2nd half of the year though. If Walsh was still coach we wouldn't have been any worse and who knows if we still would have been smashed by the Eagles, Swans, Cats and Hawks like we were with Campo.

 

[Thetrader15]

I thought I tapped on the Mitch Grigg link. I'll go back and try again...

 

[Vader]

We had more than a few easy ones in the 2nd half of the year though. If Walsh was still coach we wouldn't have been any worse and who knows if we still would have been smashed by the Eagles, Swans, Cats and Hawks like we were with Campo.

Arguably an easier run in the first half of the season, when Walsh was in charge.

R1-13 (Walsh) - North, Collingwood, Melbourne, Bulldogs, Port, Gold Coast, St Kilda, GWS, Fremantle, Carlton, Hawthorn, Brisbane
R15-SF (Campo) - West Coast, Port, Gold Coast, Sydney, Richmond, Essendon, Brisbane, West Coast, Geelong, Bulldogs, Hawthorn

Walsh's team played 4 of 12 against top-8 sides. Campo's played 6 of 11 against top-8 sides.