Modern day players surpassing their club's traditionally thought of GOATs/Club legends

[jwint43]

it'll be interesting down the track now we have all these players whole careers on film, as opposed to players who have mythical status that we never actually saw play. Older generations can actually see for themselves and compare.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Ok, forget the media - for how many years do you believe Pav was clearly the best player in the comp?

FWIW I rate Pav’s career fractionally ahead of both Riewoldt’s and Brown’s, but to put him in the same convo as Carey and GAJ is laughable. GAJ won 5 MVPs - the next highest is 2! And Carey was clearly the best player in the comp in 95, 96, 98 and 99, and arguably in 94, and against incredibly stiff competition (GAS, Plugger, Hird, Diesel)

Like I said earlier I wouldn't. I just believe the media would .

 

[ZEV]

If Lloyd was playing against the joke of a defence that Coleman was he'd probably average 15.

We are talking about Matthew Lloyd not Marty McFly

 

[Freshwater]

It's genuinely hard to compare because what built reputations in the old days were often state selection and performance and the fact that you were a club man through and through, as opposed to simple performance on the field, makes a difference.

EJ is clearly the greatest Footscray man in history - grew up in the local area, captained coached, involved with the club. But his reputation was obviously enhanced by playing well for Victoria, being an advocate for state football (chairman of selectors, winning a Tassie medal as best player in a carnival etc.), being a media and football figure, fighting for the club in many ways and respects representing the western suburbs as much as his on-field performance. Many people consider him the best player they saw, but in large part because he was a workhorse for a typically losing team playing multiple positions and lifting himself for state games - it's worth noting how few Brownlow votes he got in comparison and compared to someone like Skilton who won his three Brownlows in the same era..

Is the fact that Bont might win the Brownlow this year, has been an elite player since 2015, but doesn't have that same reputation-building higher or lower? What are we actually comparing? I would argue that a player as a legend goes beyond performing on-field, so I say there's no doubt that EJ is still the greatest.

If Bont captains a flag? He passes EJ in my estimation, but that is the big ‘if’.

 

[Blackas87]

Same with boxing, Ali wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in the ring against Tyson and Tyson wasn't even the best fighter of the last 40 years.

Tyson is the most overrated heavyweight of all time. Wouldn’t of stood a chance against Ali

As for Ronaldo and Messi that play in super teams with other elite players getting the ball to them in perfect positions against significantly weaker teams, which Pele and Maradona didn’t have that luxury.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Like I said earlier I wouldn't. I just believe the media would .

I reckon Pav is rated by the media exactly where he should be - in the same bracket as Riewoldt, Brown, Richo, Tredrea, Goodes and Chris Grant (and, from other positions, guys like Voss, Hird and Bucks) - and below the bracket which includes guys like Lockett and GAS. I’d probably put Buddy and Dunstall half way between those 2 brackets, and Carey, GAJ and Lethal half a level above Lockett and Senior

 

[werdna78]

I reckon Pav is rated by the media exactly where he should be - in the same bracket as Riewoldt, Brown, Richo, Tredrea, Goodes and Chris Grant (and, from other positions, guys like Voss, Hird and Bucks) - and below the bracket which includes guys like Lockett and GAS. I’d probably put Buddy and Dunstall half way between those 2 brackets, and Carey, GAJ and Lethal half a level above Lockett and Senior

Agree with what you have said. In your brackets where would you place Bartlett?

 

[KissKiss]

If Bont captains a flag? He passes EJ in my estimation, but that is the big ‘if’.

Would anything else do the job? Multiple brownlows, MVPs, BnFs, etc?

Just curious what it would take for him to be elevated to the next level, as he seems to be one of the few players (not at a new club) that looks young enough and good enough to push into that territory

 

[Iamspock]

If Bont captains a flag? He passes EJ in my estimation, but that is the big ‘if’.

What is it do you think, that makes us Bulldogs supporters reluctant to put another Bulldogs player (in this case, Bont), on a higher or at least level pedestal than EJ. Is it his actual football achievements, his personality and aura, both or something else? Perhaps legends become bigger as time passes. Do we think eventually that another roundabout needs to be put out in front of Whitten Oval, with Bont's statue in it?

EDITED - Sorry KissKiss you got in just ahead of me.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Agree with what you have said. In your brackets where would you place Bartlett?

I never saw him play (never saw Lethal either tbh) so hard to say but gee, his record is pretty bloody good!

 

[Philth]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but how does Pendlebury rate amongst the greatest Collingwood players?

 

[LeverPuller]

On accolades Gawn is getting into the conversation. Likely to have AA #5. 2 B&Fs. Club captain. Not GOAT (that’s still between Barassi and Flower) but definitely in the Stynes/Neitz next echelon.

 

[Freshwater]

Would anything else do the job? Multiple brownlows, MVPs, BnFs, etc?

Just curious what it would take for him to be elevated to the next level, as he seems to be one of the few players (not at a new club) that looks young enough and good enough to push into that territory

Of course if he is as good as he is now and has been for the last five years for five more years he will equal or surpass EJ with or without a flag. He and EJ are our only two b&f winners in our premiership years. It’s that 2nd flag, especially as captain that would elevate him to that next level.

 

[werdna78]

I never saw him play (never saw Lethal either tbh) so hard to say but gee, his record is pretty bloody good!

Pulled some stats from AFL tables and filtered out the averages and totals for some of the best players, people talk about. Then used the data to work out what makes players great.

From the data and corresponding with players who get talked about the most.

IMO Bartlett and Matthews are on the same level, recent players with similar averages are Pavlich, Goodes and Hird

Goal kickers rate highly: GAs, Lockett, Dunstall, Quinlan & Carey from yesteryear with Franklin, J Brown, Lloyd, Nick & Jack Riewoldt

Then length of time in game: R Harvey, B Harvey

With the reduction in bags of goals kicked over the years, IMO we seem to focus more on high disposal getters

 

[werdna78]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but how does Pendlebury rate amongst the greatest Collingwood players?

I would put him up there with Buckley, but Buckley has more goals.

 

[Tulip]

The last few years claiming every top player the GOAT is a ******* joke.

How can people know who the greatest of all time is when they have only ever seen a portion of the players to ever play?

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

The emergence of the word GOAT in recent years has been awful, but symbolic of our short memory span as a society.

 

[Tulip]

On accolades Gawn is getting into the conversation. Likely to have AA #5. 2 B&Fs. Club captain. Not GOAT (that’s still between Barassi and Flower) but definitely in the Stynes/Neitz next echelon.

I was a bit young for Flower, but from what I've read he was no more a superstar than Gawn is. He was just the only one in the team for a decade. Can anyone who watched footy in the 80s confirm?

 

[LeverPuller]

I was a bit young for Flower, but from what I've read he was no more a superstar than Gawn is. He was just the only one in the team for a decade. Can anyone who watched footy in the 80s confirm?

I mean Robbie’s list of accolades is stymied by how s**t the Melbourne sides were.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Pulled some stats from AFL tables and filtered out the averages and totals for some of the best players, people talk about. Then used the data to work out what makes players great.

From the data and corresponding with players who get talked about the most.

IMO Bartlett and Matthews are on the same level, recent players with similar averages are Pavlich, Goodes and Hird

Goal kickers rate highly: GAs, Lockett, Dunstall, Quinlan & Carey from yesteryear with Franklin, J Brown, Lloyd, Nick & Jack Riewoldt

Then length of time in game: R Harvey, B Harvey

With the reduction in bags of goals kicked over the years, IMO we seem to focus more on high disposal getters

It’s always hard to compare players of different eras - in Aussie Rules it’s particularly hard as scores have dropped massively, and a lot of important stats have only been kept recently. Purely for goals, instead of noting that Plugger averaged 5 (or whatever it is) and Josh Kennedy averaged 2.5, we should probably work out what those numbers mean as a percentage of their team’s scores, or a percentage of average goals kicked by all teams in the years they were playing. Otherwise it doesn’t mean much.

Stats like goals assists and score involvements also tell you a lot - don’t think KB would have had many of the former!

with modern data analytics, clubs also measure things like chains of possession ending in a scoring shot, though champion data don’t make this available to the public. I’d love to see stats on that, because it would show that not all clearances are created equal. Guys like Diesel Williams of yesteryear, or Pendles today, get clearances that put their teammates in great positions to set up the next link in the chain. There’s also players who hack out kicks or handballs that out teammates under pressure. So pure clearance numbers don’t tell you much.

so it’s basically impossible to compare players of different eras with stats, and we’re left with the eye test, and stories passed down by old timers. Which maybe makes it more fun

 

[owen87]

It’s always hard to compare players of different eras - in Aussie Rules it’s particularly hard as scores have dropped massively, and a lot of important stats have only been kept recently. Purely for goals, instead of noting that Plugger averaged 5 (or whatever it is) and Josh Kennedy averaged 2.5, we should probably work out what those numbers mean as a percentage of their team’s scores, or a percentage of average goals kicked by all teams in the years they were playing. Otherwise it doesn’t mean much.

Stats like goals assists and score involvements also tell you a lot - don’t think KB would have had many of the former!

with modern data analytics, clubs also measure things like chains of possession ending in a scoring shot, though champion data don’t make this available to the public. I’d love to see stats on that, because it would show that not all clearances are created equal. Guys like Diesel Williams of yesteryear, or Pendles today, get clearances that put their teammates in great positions to set up the next link in the chain. There’s also players who hack out kicks or handballs that out teammates under pressure. So pure clearance numbers don’t tell you much.

so it’s basically impossible to compare players of different eras with stats, and we’re left with the eye test, and stories passed down by old timers. Which maybe makes it more fun

Also as compared to their contemporaries; a number of the highest goal tallies ever are from players who played in earlier eras.

Franklin stands head and shoulders above any KPF of this era, so should be considered one of the all-time great KPFs alongside a Lockett, Coventry or Dunstall, IMO. He's clearly ahead of Lloyd as compared to their era.

 

[Mofra]

I was a bit young for Flower, but from what I've read he was no more a superstar than Gawn is. He was just the only one in the team for a decade. Can anyone who watched footy in the 80s confirm?

My few recollections of Flower were that he was just so damn watchable. Not sure about best, but classiest.
Commentators talk of classy players or 'smooth movers', in those terms Flower probably eclipses everyone. Granted my memories were at a boggy Whitten Oval in the 80s, but he was running on silk when everyone else ran through mud.

 

[RichLeMonde]

I would put him up there with Buckley, but Buckley has more goals.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but how does Pendlebury rate amongst the greatest Collingwood players?

I put Pendles behind Bucks. He has never been in the convo for the best, or even top 3, players in the league in any given year. It’s like he was seen as underrated for so long that now sometimes he gets slightly overrated IMO.

Dane Swan is an interesting one. His stats are unbelievable - not just possies but his goals + goals assists puts him in elite company with other highly damaging mids. Also won a Brownlow and either coaches’ or AFLPA MVP, can’t remember. I’d have him above Pendles and a shade behind Bucks. Not sure what the Collingwood faithful think?

 

[WillHayward]

Everyone will say GAJ is greatest Sun ever.
Fair enough.

But Touk has to be second.

 

[2Knights]

I was a bit young for Flower, but from what I've read he was no more a superstar than Gawn is. He was just the only one in the team for a decade. Can anyone who watched footy in the 80s confirm?

He was a superstar alright. Best winger I've seen (in an era of great wingers). Only played finals in his last year, but was a regular star in state games.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I reckon Pav is rated by the media exactly where he should be

Fair speculation that's because Pav was not exposed to Melbourne media.