Murali Reported

[Uhumagoo]

God I hope nobody looks like breaking Bradmans batting average.. The sooking about an illegal batting stance would be deafening..

Anyway I think he does chuck the doorsa. It just makes it really hard to call the Poms a pack of whingers at the next ashes when we carry on like this everyday.

 

[Cooldude]

Are they gonna take out video footage of Murali's bowling action in the 3rd Test match and use it as a guide? Or are they gonna ignore them and just shove him to University of WA like they did now?

Frankly I don't care if Murali doesn't chuck in a science test, it's when he chucks in a match that matters, he's gonna keep his arm as straight as possible during the testings and they'd find him legal, then he can do all the party tricks with his elbow again in the next test match.

 

[Ray Nolan]

Good to see that Murali is coming to Australia to have the tests done by the people who raised the doubts in the first place. Sounds like the bleating of an impending cover up by the BCCSL by those who know little of Sri Lankan Cricket were indeed premature. The thing that should be very interesting to see in the tests is just how much work the wrist does in producing the doosra. Watching it on a slow-mo replay doesn't do the incredible range of motion & rotation justice so it will be interesting to see just how much Murali is contorting his wrist to bowl it. Not surprising to again see certain contributors saying they will not accept the result determined by the ICC approved adjudicator if it is not in their favour, I guess it flows from the team (Mr. Gilchrist generally excepted) to their supporters.

 

[IceTemple]

Personally I couldn't give a flying fig whether people think Murali chucks or not BUT...

Ray Nolan you are a complete "tosser" of the highest order!

 

[Booze Hound]

The Test will be irrelevant because it will be done under test conditions so Murali will be aware and, therefore 'careful' not to transgress.

You've really just got to watch him during matches. Most (almost all) of his deleveries are fairly dubious, some are just blatant - even before the 'doosra' from the man who can't straighten his arm completely.

 

[Ray Nolan]

Originally posted by IceTemple
Personally I couldn't give a flying fig whether people think Murali chucks or not BUT...

Ray Nolan you are a complete "tosser" of the highest order!

Sorry I'm not one of the sheep buddy, we can't all play follow the leader. Some of us hold our own opinions based on the evidence put before us and are willing to look further than just the surface. I make no apology for that. If you don't like it -

 

[Ray Nolan]

Judging by this article those of you who have got your hopes up to see Murali rubbed out altogether will be disappointed as only the doosra is under examination. His off-spinner & top-spinner have been ruled legal and that's that. I welcome the fact that the most sophisticated scientific testing equipment is being used, I have advocated that from the start. Scientific and medical evidence is all that matters here (not distractions like race or other such tripe) If he's cleared it will put the matter to rest once & for all. It will be the ICC adjudicators decision and like the other decisions it will be final. If he is not cleared then it will give Murali the choice/opportunity to do remedial work to iron out the problem with the delivery or to stop using it altogether. We're going to get the answer one way or the other, let the scientific testing begin.

From the Fox Sports website:
http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,9145362-23210,00.html

Video test for Lord of the Spin
By Jim Morton
April 1, 2004

EXPERTS testing Muttiah Muralitharan's controversial "doosra" will use state-of-the-art, Academy Award-winning technology to get to the bottom of cricket's most vexing question.

Murali, on the verge of becoming Test cricket's leading wicket-taker, will arrive in Perth this week to have his new delivery assessed by an advanced camera system responsible for the animation in The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Match referee Chris Broad reported the doosra, the off-spinner's wrong-un, as suspect after Murali took 28 wickets in Sri Lanka's 3-0 series loss to Australia.

The report to the International Cricket Council led to the Sri Lankan cricket board referring him on to biomechanics experts to have the delivery tested and reignited a political battle fought out along racial lines.

The doubts raised by Englishman Broad incensed Sri Lankan officials, with former captain Arjuna Ranatunga hinting at a "white conspiracy" to stop Murali (513) passing Courtney Walsh's mark of 519 Test wickets.

But Perth-based Professor Bruce Elliott, an ICC-approved human-movement specialist who tested Murali in 1996, said the advanced technology to be used would deliver a correct and clear-cut analysis of his doosra.

Elliott will use a 12-camera Vicon system which is an updated version of the system used eight years ago, shooting 250 frames per second compared to the six-camera system which captured 50 frames per second.

It allows smaller reflective markers to be attached to the bowler around the elbow, which impede the action less.

"It's the ultimate analysis tool, it's the same sort of tool that they use for all the animations in Lord of the Rings," Elliott said.

Elliott assured the process, which measures whether the bent arm extends more than 10 per cent, was accurate.

"This is all automatic so the numbers are spat out and you don't even see the number until it comes out in a graph," he said.

"It's absolutely ridgy didge from that viewpoint. What the number is is what actually happens."

Elliott, fellow tester Daryl Foster and a third expert will conduct a number of trials while Murali stays in Perth for five days to get an accurate representation of how he bowls.

They expect to finish their report late next week.

They will not test Murali's stock ball - the off-spinner - or his top-spinner, as both were given the green light in 1996 after it was concluded Murali's unique action created an optical illusion that he chucked.

If the rubber-wristed bowler, born with a bent elbow, is found to extend his arm by 10 per cent or more, he would have to decide whether to undertake remediation with the ICC or stop bowling the doosra.

"If it is found he extends then the decision is really with him," Elliott said.

"He could remove the ball from his repertoire and it's only been in his repertoire for the last year and bit anyway.

"It may be that the ICC would force him to remove that delivery from his repertoire but that is conjecture."

That would undoubtedly open a new can of worms with any delivery that turned away from the right-hander seen as suspect, putting umpires under further pressure.

Politically for cricket, Broad's reporting of Murali was particularly poor timing as all his countrymen await his ascension to the top of Test cricket's wicket-taker's list.

He needs only seven more scalps to pass Walsh's mark and will almost certainly do that during the two-Test tour of Zimbabwe, starting in April.

Ranatunga criticised Broad and questioned the former Test batsman's appointment as he was inexperienced and only possessed a "favourable background".

ICC president Ehsan Mani hit back overnight, denying any bias against Murali and defending Broad's actions by saying he was well within his rights to raise concerns about any delivery or bowler.

"The rules say it, the playing conditions demand it and every Test playing country has agreed to it," he said in London.

"Given this reality it is deeply disappointing to read claims from some quarters about bias."

AAP

 

[Ray Nolan]

More on the testing procedure from the Fox Sports website:

http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,9149624-23212,00.html

Murali verdict in days
By Jon Pierik
April 1, 2004

ACCUSED chucker Muthiah Muralidaran will know by the end of the week whether he will have to banish his weapon of mass destruction, the controversial doosra delivery.

And the man who will help assess him, former West Australian cricket coach Daryl Foster, yesterday dismissed concerns Sri Lanka's spin wizard would be able to clear his name by cheating on his test.

Muralidaran was still trying to get a visa early yesterday but may land in Perth as early as today in preparation for the hour-long assessment to be conducted at the University of Western Australia by Foster and biomechanics expert, professor Bruce Elliott.

He was reported by match referee Chris Broad for illegally straightening his arm delivering the doosra during the third Test against Australia which finished on Sunday.

The doosra is bowled with an off-spinner's action but the ball spins away from right-hander.

His off-spinner, leg-spinner and top-spinner, which have previously been cleared by the ICC, will not be assessed as part of stage one of the new bowling review process.

While Elliott has suggested the doosra may be flirting with the boundaries of legality, Foster yesterday would not predict the results of the review.

"I couldn't begin to say whether it was legal or not legal," he said.

"We just have to wait until science takes over and do the three-dimensional analysis."

Foster said Muralidaran's genetic flexion deformity in his right elbow and wrist, which his brothers also have, made him capable of producing a delivery - such as the doosra - that no one else could.

But whether that was illegal or not, Foster would not say.

"You couldn't do it. You don't have an arm that is flexed at 38 degrees and has a carry angle (at the wrist) of another 20 degrees," he said.

"You put that above your head, it's going to look awfully different.

"Then if you factor in this guy has the most mobile wrist I have ever seen, then he is able to do things we can't even think about.

"It's a family genetic problem. His brothers are exactly the same."

Muralidaran will have his action tested by a 12-camera system which films at 250 frames a second.

But there are fears that because the test conditions are different to a match situation, he won't bowl the doosra in his normal way.

"It's not the same as a match, is it?" said former Test paceman Jeff Thomson, who said the doosra was "suss" while working as a television commentator during Australia's recent series in Sri Lanka.

"If you are definitely under the pump, you would obviously try make a big effort to try and keep your arm straight, wouldn't you?"

But Foster vehemently denied Muralidaran would be able to cheat.

"We have got procedures in place to make sure that doesn't happen," he said.

"I am not going to tell you what they are at the moment.

"If you knew Murali you would know he is not a cheat and you would know he is as anxious as anyone else to know what the situation is."

Foster worked with Muralidaran during the initial complaints against the spinner in 1995 and '98.

Once Foster and Elliott complete their report, it will be sent to the Sri Lankan Cricket Board, which will add its thoughts and pass it on to the ICC.

Muralidaran will also be told of the verdict and, if the doosra is found to be illegal, he will have two options.

"He can either undergo a remedial process as other bowlers have done or he can say, 'Well, my livelihood doesn't depend on the doosra and I'll concentrate on the offie and top-spinner'," Foster said.

with AP

Herald Sun

 

[Zyban]

Originally posted by Ray Nolan
I welcome the fact that the most sophisticated scientific testing equipment is being used,

AAP

I have 2 of that equipment Ray infinatly more technical than any scientest can come up with.

They're called eyes you av'em too, here's a tip.....OPEN THEM

 

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Ray Nolan

The doubts raised by Englishman Broad incensed Sri Lankan officials, with former captain Arjuna Ranatunga hinting at a "white conspiracy" to stop Murali (513) passing Courtney Walsh's mark of 519 Test wickets.

I know this is old ground but that is such a funny comment coming from a pie eating fat ****. Last time I checked Courtney was black, unless he went to the same plastic surgeon as Michael Jackson. I know he is referring to us wanting Shane Warne as the record holder but still, what a ****er!

Oh yeah, Ray Nolan = ****er!

 

[scmods]

Originally posted by Ray Nolan
Scientific and medical evidence is all that matters here (not distractions like race or other such tripe)

The only people who keep bringing up race are you and Arjuna Ranatunga.

If he's cleared it will put the matter to rest once & for all.

I doubt it.


While the technology to be used is impressive and will leave no doubt on what he bowls during the test, I hope they are also going to compare it to match footage.

Whether consciously or not, he will bowl differently in the nets before the cameras. In a match situation the pressure to take wickets makes any bowler strain that bit more and put that extra effort into a ball, and that is where technique is likely to be pushed over the edge.

 

[dugrene]

First and foremost under the laws he is a chucker and always has been.

The ICC are a mob of gutless wimps he should have been banned or had his action changed years ago.

On ABC radio during the recent Indian tour the commentators had a hypothetical set of questions relating to what laws or rules would they change in cricket given the chance.

Kerry O'keefe hit the nail on the head. He said he would get rid of the chucking rule. Allow a bowler to get the ball down the other end anyway he wants.

I've given it some thought and agree with his idea. As long as the ball is not bowled underarm.
Imagine the types of deliverys that would become available ?
It could add a whole new dimension to spin bowling, mabey increase marginally a fast bowler speed.

IMHO it should be considered.

 

[Ray Nolan]

It's unsurprising to see people continually misrepresent what I say. I have said on this thread and others that race should have nothing to do with it. I do have my concerns with regards to role Australia has played because this issue only surfaces when Australia is involved but I don't believe for a second race is behind their actions. I am more than happy to debate the issue, it is healthy & enjoyable but it is disappointing to see the anti-Murali brigade again resort to name calling simply because I have put my view forward that I do not believe Murali chucks the ball. That is my view and it is my right to hold it, by all means disagree, debate is healthy. However, I don't see the need to resort to personal attacks simply because I hold that belief. Yes, I have also been angered on this thread and levelled a few angry words as well, this is because I'm sick of people deliberately misquoting me and deliberately misrepresenting what I have to say. It gets annoying having to go over the same ground again because people can't be bothered to properly read the threads before they have a go. I have no qualms with people who believe Murali is a chucker, if you believe that, that's up to you. I'm not going to call you names for doing so. I think the same courtesy should be extended. Cheers lads.

 

[Ryan8024]

Originally posted by dugrene
Kerry O'keefe hit the nail on the head. He said he would get rid of the chucking rule. Allow a bowler to get the ball down the other end anyway he wants.

I've given it some thought and agree with his idea. As long as the ball is not bowled underarm.
Imagine the types of deliverys that would become available ?
It could add a whole new dimension to spin bowling, mabey increase marginally a fast bowler speed.

IMHO it should be considered.

American cricket has had this rule for years. They call it "pitching"

 

[Cooldude]

Originally posted by dugrene
First and foremost under the laws he is a chucker and always has been.

The ICC are a mob of gutless wimps he should have been banned or had his action changed years ago.

On ABC radio during the recent Indian tour the commentators had a hypothetical set of questions relating to what laws or rules would they change in cricket given the chance.

Kerry O'keefe hit the nail on the head. He said he would get rid of the chucking rule. Allow a bowler to get the ball down the other end anyway he wants.

I've given it some thought and agree with his idea. As long as the ball is not bowled underarm.
Imagine the types of deliverys that would become available ?
It could add a whole new dimension to spin bowling, mabey increase marginally a fast bowler speed.

IMHO it should be considered.

Biggest load of horse sh1t ever.

What I read somewhere, is that Murali has a 11 degree deformity in his arm, not the 32 degree you mentioned, Ray. Clear to show some evidence?

 

[CatManDo]

So Bruce Elliot from UWA is going to examine his action.

I assume this is the same UWA specialist who recently expressed doubt over his doosra? Does anyone know this?

If it is, I would be amazed that Sri Lankan officials have allowed a man to examine him now, who (despite clearing him a while back) has openly admitted that he thinks the doosra is dodgy.

 

[scmods]

Well, he did his test today so no doubt we'll hear about it before long.

Apparently he bowled a total of twelve balls which were filmed. They showed a bit of it on the news tonight, and unfortunately what he was bowling looked nothing like what he bowls in a match - his action looked far more relaxed than normal. Even the so-called "optical illusion" of chucking wasn't there, so no doubt he'll be cleared and life will go on.

 

[feher]

Originally posted by Ryan8024
American cricket has had this rule for years. They call it "pitching"

my post more aimed at dugrene

yeah but image a fast baller pitching 100 balls a game? starting pitchers in baseball only last about 100 odd pitches and then require between 3-5 days (for 3 we are talking about important games they come back for) rest between starts. Then we have closers/relievers who would last lucky to be half of that, but they pitch most days. Bowlers that only pitch i can see this having a real bad effect with lots of shoulder injuries; for this to work it would require a bowler to ball likely 80% in say a test match setting. I doubt they would have the stamina to pitch fast for an entire day or even a spell; especially if they run in ... ok i have gone well of topic. Personally i can't see pitching being acceptable in cricket.

 

[Cooldude]

Originally posted by scmods
Well, he did his test today so no doubt we'll hear about it before long.

Apparently he bowled a total of twelve balls which were filmed. They showed a bit of it on the news tonight, and unfortunately what he was bowling looked nothing like what he bowls in a match - his action looked far more relaxed than normal. Even the so-called "optical illusion" of chucking wasn't there, so no doubt he'll be cleared and life will go on.

**** this, don't care what he bowls in a science test, what we actually care is what he bowl in an actual TEST MATCH. Get some bloody match footage and compare it.

 

[CatManDo]

Apparently Bruce Yardley was on hand to make sure he was bowling in the way he did in the Tests, so its not just a scientist with his pocket protector and clipboard doing all the viewing.

Why they chose Bruce I have no idea. Its good that they do this but its no secret that Bruce is a mega Murali fan, so I wonder how strict he would be.

 

[St-KriS]

Originally posted by CatManDo


Why they chose Bruce I have no idea. Its good that they do this but its no secret that Bruce is a mega Murali fan, so I wonder how strict he would be.

"Who cares about Murali's arm?! Look at his eyes! Look at his big beautiful eyes! Gosh I love the little champ."

 

[carn_the_nmfc]

Originally posted by Cooldude
Biggest load of horse sh1t ever.

What I read somewhere, is that Murali has a 11 degree deformity in his arm, not the 32 degree you mentioned, Ray. Clear to show some evidence?

That is correct. But it still won't prevent him from bowling his "new and suspicious" delivery.

 

[Cooldude]

Originally posted by CatManDo
Apparently Bruce Yardley was on hand to make sure he was bowling in the way he did in the Tests, so its not just a scientist with his pocket protector and clipboard doing all the viewing.

Why they chose Bruce I have no idea. Its good that they do this but its no secret that Bruce is a mega Murali fan, so I wonder how strict he would be.

Yes, it was pretty soft that Bruce was the one chosen, Bishen Bedi would've done the job, that's if he doesn't stab Murali with a dagger first.

I just cannot know how Bruce is able to tell that Murali is "bowling" exactly the same as he was in the match, it is impossible to tell, and they called in a scientific test, how unscientific was that?

 

[CatManDo]

Originally posted by Cooldude
Yes, it was pretty soft that Bruce was the one chosen, Bishen Bedi would've done the job, that's if he doesn't stab Murali with a dagger first.

I just cannot know how Bruce is able to tell that Murali is "bowling" exactly the same as he was in the match, it is impossible to tell, and they called in a scientific test, how unscientific was that?

Well they needed a control in place of some sort.

Its all so wishy washy though. Why can they not get some close up footage of him in a game, then take footage from the same angle in the testing. Put them alongside each other and then have Bruce or whoever compare. Overlay the footage to see if theres any difference. Otherwise, how are you going to know?

Doesnt matter though, because the Murali case has been dragged out so long now, its just become a bit of a shame. If he is cleared, it wont change the opinions of many people. And if he's not cleared, it throws doubt over his whole career, or at least that of the past 5 years since he has been bowling the doosra.

 

[Ray Nolan]

Originally posted by Cooldude
What I read somewhere, is that Murali has a 11 degree deformity in his arm, not the 32 degree you mentioned, Ray. Clear to show some evidence?

Did you read the article I posted on page 4 by Jon Pierik?

Daryl Foster when describing Murali's right arm stated it was "an arm that is flexed at 38 degrees and has a carry angle (at the wrist) of another 20 degrees" Given that Foster is involved in conducting the tests I would think he has the correct figures as given to him by Murali's doctors. The 20 degree figure people here are so fond of quoting is the carry angle of Murali's wrist - not the angle of the elbow.

I have to say the 38 degree figure is a new one on me. The only figure I've seen before in the press is 32 degrees, and that was the figure Murali himself said in 1996 when I asked him about it. I can only assume more detailed examinations have been conducted since then that have culminated in this new figure.

As for Bruce Yardley being present at the test, it is not surprising he was chosen. He would know better than anyone if Murali was not bowling the doosra as he does normally because he has seen Murali play more Cricket than any other Australian observer they could've picked, except maybe Dav Whatmore. If something was amiss he would know. To say that Yardley or Murali would be dishonest is a mere presumption by those who don't know either of them from a bar of soap and as such shouldn't make such assumptions unless they can actually prove any sort of conspiracy between the 2 of them.