Neil Craig

[Kane McGoodwin]

I hear the 3 of you.

I'm not about bagging him, Im just saying if we dont take our chance this year what with a few older blokes in thier twilight it could be too late for NC to grab a premiership for himself.

Hes a great coach but can he be greater.

IMO, he is a good coach - need a premiership to be considered great.

 

[Crow-mo]

People are crying over nothing, Neil Craig is a great coach, he pulled some premiership chances out of the bag where there was no expectation to, its not the Coaches fault that players make the occasional bad decision that costs us games, thats the players fault. And every club in the AFL gets that.

I am glad Neil Craig is our coach rather than Rodney and Wallet.

it's much easier to say those things, than to justify them under scrutiny

 

[Crow-mo]

At no time has Neil had a top 4 list, however, he has squeezed every little bit of ability out of his players

I'm a big believer that when a teams finishes top 4, it gets to call itself a top 4 list. using any other measure is just wank.

 

[Tas]

I'm a big believer that when a teams finishes top 4, it gets to call itself a top 4 list. using any other measure is just wank.

We finished top 4 in 2007 and I find it hard to believe we have the fourth best list in the comp at present. Sometimes you just perform better than where your list is at for a number of reasons. I think you need to be consistently and comfortably in the top 4 for 3 or 4 years.

 

[Farmy]

it's much easier to say those things, than to justify them under scrutiny

Its easy to say those things because that is what happened.

 

[Damp Squarie]

I'm a big believer that when a teams finishes top 4, it gets to call itself a top 4 list. using any other measure is just wank.

I agree.
What was 1997 a top ONE list

 

[Damp Squarie]

IMO, he is a good coach - need a premiership to be considered great.

He knows what it takes as a player!
I think he's imparted some of his guile on players like van Berlo, Reilly and ...Im ashamed to say Skipworth

But hes gotta get into the heads of players, because we all know the game is played above the shoulders... by and large

What value can he extract from Jonas in his second year

 

[Crow-mo]

We finished top 4 in 2007 and I find it hard to believe we have the fourth best list in the comp at present. Sometimes you just perform better than where your list is at for a number of reasons. I think you need to be consistently and comfortably in the top 4 for 3 or 4 years.

while I will argue that you didn't have a top 4 list, all the points I could make, persuasive or not, still fail the reality test. i.e. you made the top 4, and nothing else I can say will change that.

was your list good enough to make the top 4? what i am going to say, no?

facts is facts.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I think that NC has a problem when he is out of his "controlled" environment. This being match day. Great Prematch coach, poor tactician, poor making changes under pressure. We no longer win close games. This is clearly a sign of that.

Garbage.

The lack of moves on match day are not a "weakness" that Craig has.
Any **** in the stands could make sweeping positional changes during a match. Craig has made a conscious decision to base our game plan around having a stable structure and showing utmost faith in the team and individuals.

Through his experiences he has obviously decided that ringing the changes, chopping and changing, shuffling line ups and constantly searching for 'that magic formula' is counter productive to achieving success. His is almost the antithesis of the Blight philosophy who - if something wasn't working - would simply ring the changes until he found something that did.

Until Craig wins a premiership there will always will be doubts (internal and external) about the merits of his approach. Will he change? I doubt it very much. I really don't understand the calls for Craig stay as he is during the week but to just make some more moves on match day. To do this would mean completely, utterly and fundamentally changing his entire approach to coaching. Basically what you are asking him to do is give up everything he believes in and try to coach like someone else.

 

[CrowMagnum]

Garbage.

The lack of moves on match day are not a "weakness" that Craig has.
Any **** in the stands could make sweeping positional changes during a match. Craig has made a conscious decision to base our game plan around having a stable structure and showing utmost faith in the team and individuals.

Through his experiences he has obviously decided that ringing the changes, chopping and changing, shuffling line ups and constantly searching for 'that magic formula' is counter productive to achieving success. His is almost the antithesis of the Blight philosophy who - if something wasn't working - would simply ring the changes until he found something that did.

Until Craig wins a premiership there will always will be doubts (internal and external) about the merits of his approach. Will he change? I doubt it very much. I really don't understand the calls for Craig stay as he is during the week but to just make some more moves on match day. To do this would mean completely, utterly and fundamentally changing his entire approach to coaching. Basically what you are asking him to do is give up everything he believes in and try to coach like someone else.

On the contrary, it's a glaring weakness that's just about universally accepted by everyone except you and Craig himself. There are numerous widely quoted examples of it costing us games, and that now includes quite a few finals that have potentially cost us grand final berths and probably at least one premiership.

Sure he ticks a lot of boxes but he doesn't tick the matchday box and that's why he'll never rank with the greats. One thing I do agree with though is that he'll never change because, despite his often professed "this loss is an invaluable learning experience for us all, including me" he's too stubborn to really admit he sometimes got it wrong.

 

[Crow-mo]

Garbage.

The lack of moves on match day are not a "weakness" that Craig has.
Any **** in the stands could make sweeping positional changes during a match. Craig has made a conscious decision to base our game plan around having a stable structure and showing utmost faith in the team and individuals.

Through his experiences he has obviously decided that ringing the changes, chopping and changing, shuffling line ups and constantly searching for 'that magic formula' is counter productive to achieving success. His is almost the antithesis of the Blight philosophy who - if something wasn't working - would simply ring the changes until he found something that did.

Until Craig wins a premiership there will always will be doubts (internal and external) about the merits of his approach. Will he change? I doubt it very much. I really don't understand the calls for Craig stay as he is during the week but to just make some more moves on match day. To do this would mean completely, utterly and fundamentally changing his entire approach to coaching. Basically what you are asking him to do is give up everything he believes in and try to coach like someone else.

Sorry Carl,

it's not asking to throw in everything he believes in and coach like someone else. it's asking him to perform the full remitt of his job.

A CEO who steers well in calm waters, but refuses to address a crisis would be seen as inadequate for the full responsibilities of his job. Same way, a guy who can only rebuild and initiate change, but cannot oversee a calmer prosperity would also be seen as one dimensional.

right or wrong the accusations are that craig is one dimensional.

 

[Eastern Crow]

My thoughts

The lack of changes on match day is largely due to not having flexibility in the side.

The crows in recent years have drafted players that bring that flexibility, this will enable the coaching box to make more moves, not just for the sake of making a move.

This is why I believe players like Shirley will struggle to make our best 22 in 2008

 

[noddy]

My thoughts

The lack of changes on match day is largely due to not having flexibility in the side.

The crows in recent years have drafted players that bring that flexibility, this will enable the coaching box to make more moves, not just for the sake of making a move.

This is why I believe players like Shirley will struggle to make our best 22 in 2008

Year after year the name of Rob Shirley comes up as the most likely of our starting 22 who will struggle to get a game next year by some posters.

I sort of find this a little bemusing as did he not have a good year in 07 & even improved his attacking skills to go along with his negating role.

Please leave me at least one blue collar in & under warrior to cheer on.

 

[cammo84]

Year after year the name of Rob Shirley comes up as the most likely of our starting 22 who will struggle to get a game next year by some posters.

I sort of find this a little bemusing as did he not have a good year in 07 & even improved his attacking skills to go along with his negating role.

Please leave me at least one blue collar in & under warrior to cheer on.

surely m doughty will lose his spot in the side before shirley does

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Sorry Carl,

it's not asking to throw in everything he believes in and coach like someone else. it's asking him to perform the full remitt of his job.

How would Craig rate his own match day performances? I would think that his decision making, conduct, and operation on match day would be consistent with the planning and preparation that has gone on during the week. I find it difficult to believe that he 'freezes' on match days and is reduced to the role of an observer.

People can disagree with his approach (and I admit that seasons like 2007 don't exactly give him much cred) but what you are asking for is not a fresh, new approach from Craig on match days that covers all the bases, what you are asking for is a fresh, new coach.

right or wrong the accusations are that craig is one dimensional.

Tomato, tomato.

One dimensional / consistent
Stubborn / persistent
Inflexible / structured

The interpretation of these terms comes down to the little matter of whether you win or lose. At the moment the jury is out.

On the contrary, it's a glaring weakness that's just about universally accepted by everyone except you and Craig himself.

I think this is universally accepted by people who embrace very simplistic, obvious, cheap-seats solutions to what are actually quite complex list and balance problems.

There are numerous widely quoted examples of it costing us games, and that now includes quite a few finals that have potentially cost us grand final berths and probably at least one premiership.

Hypothetical. Would we have been in a position to grab these grand finals berths if Craig had adopted a different approach? Again hypothetical. I don't know, you don't know.

How successful would you rate Craig's three (full) seasons in charge? Two preliminary finals and one elimination final. Is that a fail? A pass? A credit? Disappointing that we have not progressed further no doubt but would a bloke who inherited a 12th ranked side and apparently can't coach his way out of a paper bag on match day have achieved what he has so far? Perhaps his match day methods deserve some more credit or at least some more in depth analysis than the Rucci-esque "why didn't you move so-and-so?"

 

[macca23]

Sorry Carl,

it's not asking to throw in everything he believes in and coach like someone else. it's asking him to perform the full remitt of his job.
A CEO who steers well in calm waters, but refuses to address a crisis would be seen as inadequate for the full responsibilities of his job. Same way, a guy who can only rebuild and initiate change, but cannot oversee a calmer prosperity would also be seen as one dimensional.

right or wrong the accusations are that craig is one dimensional.

Totally agree with the whole post but particularly this point.

3 years in a row Craig has let the club and supporters down in finals by not doing what any sane rational coach would and should have done.

Re-wrap and present it how you like, this point cannot be disputed.

It's a weakness that has to be corrected or Craig won't hold the job long term, and that would be a damn shame given all the other attributes he brings to the table.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Garbage.

The lack of moves on match day are not a "weakness" that Craig has.
Any **** in the stands could make sweeping positional changes during a match. Craig has made a conscious decision to base our game plan around having a stable structure and showing utmost faith in the team and individuals.

Through his experiences he has obviously decided that ringing the changes, chopping and changing, shuffling line ups and constantly searching for 'that magic formula' is counter productive to achieving success. His is almost the antithesis of the Blight philosophy who - if something wasn't working - would simply ring the changes until he found something that did.

Until Craig wins a premiership there will always will be doubts (internal and external) about the merits of his approach. Will he change? I doubt it very much. I really don't understand the calls for Craig stay as he is during the week but to just make some more moves on match day. To do this would mean completely, utterly and fundamentally changing his entire approach to coaching. Basically what you are asking him to do is give up everything he believes in and try to coach like someone else.

Great post. I agree 100%

 

[Macca19]

A Eastern Crow has said, in now way have we had a top four list, but NC the expert Player Preparer has done this...

In 05 and specifically 06 you had a top 4 list. No question.

 

[Macca19]

As an outsider, Craig has some exceptional things which he is good at, and some things which he needs to improve.

One of, if not the biggest criticism of Gary Ayres was that it took him far too long on match days to notice/change a bad match up. I think Craig has similar game day faults to Ayres.

fwiw, Mark Williams had similar faults during 02 and 03. It also cost us finals. In 02 Licuria was free to pick up 40 disposals in the final. In 03, Hall kicked 6 goals and had a hand in a few others before a changed match up was made halfway through the 3rd quarter. The damage was done. Williams stated that he had faith in his player/players to turn it around and he gave them time to do such, as they had proven throughout the year that they could.

I think the point is its alright to have faith in your structure, faith in your players and faith in your gameplan, but games contains countless variables that can counteract such gameplans and structures, which then involves the need for variety and the ability to be proactive in changing a player match up or having a plan b etc. if the need arises.

Its not talking about making wholesale changes to player positions either. Blight may have had that ability to throw a team around until something worked, but many many times it didnt work for him as well. You dont need to make 10 changes to try and turn something around. Sometimes all it takes is one or two smart decisions and the game can change.

With a largely turned over list, it will be interesting to see what Craig can do with your refreshed list for 08, 09 and beyond.

 

[birdmanptr]

Totally agree with the whole post but particularly this point.

3 years in a row Craig has let the club and supporters down in finals by not doing what any sane rational coach would and should have done.

Re-wrap and present it how you like, this point cannot be disputed.

It's a weakness that has to be corrected or Craig won't hold the job long term, and that would be a damn shame given all the other attributes he brings to the table.

I find this a bit harsh

2005 final against the Saints No Huddo No Roo No Bock which meant Trent had to go back to pick up one of their 2 big guys.Also we only played one bad game in the later part of the year and that was the First final.Take a look at our effort either side of that game great effort against the Eagles in Perth and faultless display against Port.

2006 Limped into the finals and limped all through the finals with Biglands going down in the Prelim Burton and Macca very underdone played super in the first half but ran out of steam in the second half against the Eagles.Plus NO Roo No Trent who was just starting to have a impact on games before he went down.

2007 should not have made the finals.Given the year we had with injuries and there is no way anyone will convince me that some of our players were up to AFL fitness standard when they took to the Park on game day.

 

[macca23]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you watched those 3 finals and couldn't pick the coaching mistakes - or lack of moves - I'm certainly not going to waste my time or yours on the subject.

 

[- PC -]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you watched those 3 finals and couldn't pick the coaching mistakes - or lack of moves - I'm certainly not going to waste my time or yours on the subject.

Let me suggest 1

Goodwin to either stick with Harvey or put Shirley on Harvey

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

3 years in a row Craig has let the club and supporters down in finals by not doing what any sane rational coach would and should have done.

Like the 12 sane rational coaches that finished below him in 05? Or the 12 sane rational coaches who finished below him in 06?

Be thankful for what you've got.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I think the point is its alright to have faith in your structure, faith in your players and faith in your gameplan, but games contains countless variables that can counteract such gameplans and structures, which then involves the need for variety and the ability to be proactive in changing a player match up or having a plan b etc. if the need arises.

Good post. I'm a big wrap for Craig and his methods but unless he is ultimately successful there will always be questions asked. His faith in his own methods would have to have been shaken by our 2007 season. Will be interesting to see if Craig continues with his heavily structured approach or if he adopts the changes you suggest.

Looking around the league the Swans are probably the closest to us in terms of match day tactics. Paul Roos doesn't change anything. The players know the structure, they know the game plan and, crucially, they know their role. Even if things aren't working initially the players know that their game plan works and works against the best sides - persist and the result will come.

The likes of Blight and Sheedy were the exact opposite. They had Plans B, C, D and E up the sleeve if required and were prepared to turn their team upside down if they felt the situation required it. Worsfold seems to have a combination of both methods. His structure remains very stable however he has a couple of aces in his deck - Hunter and Embley - that he uses to catch the opposition out and to pinch hit up forward at crucial stages in a game. All of these coaches have won premierships.

How much are a coach's tactics/game plan dictated by the personnel at their disposal and how much is defined by their personal philosophy on football?

 

[CrowMagnum]

Through his experiences he has obviously decided that ringing the changes, chopping and changing, shuffling line ups and constantly searching for 'that magic formula' is counter productive to achieving success. His is almost the antithesis of the Blight philosophy who - if something wasn't working - would simply ring the changes until he found something that did.
.

You've defeated your own argument perfectly here. Blight took some risks and won grand finals that would probably have been lost if he hadn't made changes at critical times. Craig sat on his hands and lost finals we could and should have won.

If it ain't broke don't fix it, but if it is broke then bloody well fix it. Or, to put it another way, stupidity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.