Opinion Non-Crows AFL 10

[Slippery Pete]

2. Lachie Neale tackled as he took possession (before even). Had zero prior opportunity. When was his chance to dispose of the ball? Umpire also already paid this holding the ball (incorrectly). So actually no change in the rules?

He didn’t have prior opportunity but he had reasonable time.

Do you understand the difference?

 

[Slippery Pete]

OK Fine. Now bring back the hands in the back rule. Instead of sometimes paying a two handed shove in the back and letting others get away with exactly the same action, it becomes black and white. You used your ****ing hands or you didn't. You placed a hand on the back or you ****ing didn't.

Hands in the back was a joke. No need to go back to that rubbish.

Then...**** off the stand abomination.

Now this I agree with.

 

[jenny61_99]

Hands in the back was a joke. No need to go back to that rubbish.



Now this I agree with.

I'd just like it if they umpired consistently. Call the same thing no matter which team. THAT'S what I'd like to see.

 

[Vader]

Are you Dermie? He was going on about something similar on the weekend.
Find that in the rules.

Rule 18.6.2 and 18.6.3, in the 2024 Laws of Australian Football:
https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...be/2024-Laws-of-Australian-Rules-Football.pdf

18.6.2 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Prior Opportunity
Where a Player in Possession of the Football has had Prior Opportunity, a field Umpire shall award a Free Kick if that Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football immediately when they are Legally Tackled.

18.6.3 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Incorrect Disposal
Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, a field Umpire shall award a Free Kick if that Player elects to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled.
For the avoidance of doubt, a Player does not elect to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when:
(a) the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football;
(b) the Legal Tackle causes the football to be dislodged from the Player’s possession

Also, Rule 18.13

A field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against a Player who:
(a) Throws the football;

Looking at those rules...

• If a player has had prior opportunity, then a free kick should be paid if they do not dispose of it correctly "immediately". Someone who does not dispose of it correctly has, by definition, disposed of it incorrectly - and a free kick should apply.
• If a player has not had prior opportunity, and they attempt (but fail) to correctly dispose of the ball, then there's no free kick.
• Rule 18.13 is a good catch-all though. Any player who throws the ball (i.e. attempts to handball but fails), should have a free paid against them.

 

[Slippery Pete]

No. Having an arm free to drop the ball and kick is prior opportunity

I can see what you’re trying to explain to him, but it’s important to point out why you’re wrong here from a technical standpoint.

Prior opportunity is whether you had an opportunity to dispose of the ball before you were tackled.

Neale didn’t have prior. He was caught HTB because he had reasonable time after he was tackled.

You have to understand the difference, because at the moment you don’t.

 

[DJ75]

He didn’t have prior opportunity but he had reasonable time.

Do you understand the difference?

I don't think you can have one without the other.
You can't say a player had reasonable time to dispose of the ball if they are tackled before they get it!

 

[Scorpus]

I can see what you’re trying to explain to him, but it’s important to point out why you’re wrong here from a technical standpoint.

Prior opportunity is whether you had an opportunity to dispose of the ball before you were tackled.

Neale didn’t have prior. He was caught HTB because he had reasonable time after he was tackled.

You have to understand the difference, because at the moment you don’t.

Sure, although it means the same thing. If you have any opportunity to dispose of the ball, you are required to attempt to do so.

I don't think you can have one without the other.
You can't say a player had reasonable time to dispose of the ball if they are tackled before they get it!

The rules are actually very clear about this situation:

18.6.4 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: No Genuine Attempt
Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, a field Umpire
shall award a Free Kick if the Player is able to, but does not make a genuine attempt to
Correctly Dispose of the football within a reasonable time when Legally Tackled.

If you are immediately tackled and didn't have an opportunity to dispose of the ball before the tackle, you are still required to attempt a disposal after the tackle if you are able.

In the Sholl example he has multiple opportunities to dispose of the ball because he has one or both arms free. In the Neale example he has one arm free. In neither situation did the player attempt a kick. It's a clear holding the ball free against.

If the player can't dispose of the ball because it's pinned or whatever, then it's not a free if they are tackled immediately

 

[1970crow]

Sholl has both hands free and chooses not to handball. It's clearly holding the ball

In the Neale one he has one hand free so that's also clearly holding the ball because he elects not to kick

But yeah it's stupid to point out decisions that were already being paid

Weren’t they using it as an example of time that will be afforded, not an example of the decision itself.

 

[Slippery Pete]

I don't think you can have one without the other.

Reasonable time only comes into the equation when a player hasn’t had prior opportunity. Prior opportunity is about what the player in possession did before the tackle starts, reasonable time is about what he did after the tackle starts.

If he’s had prior opportunity (ie, he’s taken a bounce, or he’s tried to evade the tackler…are two examples of prior opportunity) then he’s no longer afforded reasonable time.

At this point any tackle (sometimes ones that don’t even stick) will be paid HTB — even if the ball is held to him.

You can't say a player had reasonable time to dispose of the ball if they are tackled before they get it!

Now you’re mounting a totally different argument. Now you’re saying Neale should’ve received a holding the man free kick.

That’s a different tangent altogether.

 

[FullyBigKPro]

I'm sorry - but 'AFL' level umpires should be able to know instinctively what's HTB and what's not.... You know, like they used to be able to do for decades previously (*Yes, games got quicker but given there's 4 umpires on field now, no excuses)

 

[beartoo]

Back in the dark ages when I played there were frequent calls of "Play on, he tried".

On SM-A115F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Maddogmetro]

No. Having an arm free to drop the ball and kick is prior opportunity

This is...just not right?

Prior opportunity refers to the opportunity to dispose before the tackle.

 

[Maddogmetro]

I can see what you’re trying to explain to him, but it’s important to point out why you’re wrong here from a technical standpoint.

Prior opportunity is whether you had an opportunity to dispose of the ball before you were tackled.

Neale didn’t have prior. He was caught HTB because he had reasonable time after he was tackled.

You have to understand the difference, because at the moment you don’t.

Beat me to it.

 

[BRL121]

This is...just not right?

Prior opportunity refers to the opportunity to dispose before the tackle.

How do you explain the HTBs given when the tackle (maybe a pat on the shoulder) occurs in the act of kicking the ball?

 

[Maddogmetro]

Rule 18.6.2 and 18.6.3, in the 2024 Laws of Australian Football:
https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...be/2024-Laws-of-Australian-Rules-Football.pdf



Also, Rule 18.13


Looking at those rules...

• If a player has had prior opportunity, then a free kick should be paid if they do not dispose of it correctly "immediately". Someone who does not dispose of it correctly has, by definition, disposed of it incorrectly - and a free kick should apply.
• If a player has not had prior opportunity, and they attempt (but fail) to correctly dispose of the ball, then there's no free kick.
• Rule 18.13 is a good catch-all though. Any player who throws the ball (i.e. attempts to handball but fails), should have a free paid against them.

The laws are a bit of a mess, but the relevant clauses and definitions could also be interpreted to give a free kick where a player throws the ball in a genuine attempt to dispose of the ball, but not where the player drops the ball in an attempt to kick the ball.

It is strange that there is a definition for correct and incorrect disposal, but also one for a throw, which is falls within the definition of an incorrect disposal. There seems to be an intent to treat a throw differently to everything else.

 

[FR0GGY]

How do you explain the HTBs given when the tackle (maybe a pat on the shoulder) occurs in the act of kicking the ball?

They’ve had prior opportunity to handball it? (Quicker than a kick)

 

[Maddogmetro]

How do you explain the HTBs given when the tackle (maybe a pat on the shoulder) occurs in the act of kicking the ball?

I'm not sure what you mean, but also I don't think the actual application of the rule is relevant - I'm talking about what the rule says.

 

[MarcusP2]

Rule 18.6.2 and 18.6.3, in the 2024 Laws of Australian Football:
https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...be/2024-Laws-of-Australian-Rules-Football.pdf



Also, Rule 18.13


Looking at those rules...

• If a player has had prior opportunity, then a free kick should be paid if they do not dispose of it correctly "immediately". Someone who does not dispose of it correctly has, by definition, disposed of it incorrectly - and a free kick should apply.
• If a player has not had prior opportunity, and they attempt (but fail) to correctly dispose of the ball, then there's no free kick.
• Rule 18.13 is a good catch-all though. Any player who throws the ball (i.e. attempts to handball but fails), should have a free paid against them.

Nice wall of text, but we were only talking about the bolded. You claimed dropping the ball while trying to kick with no prior would be a free. It's not.

Attempting to handball but failing is not a throw.

 

[Vader]

The laws are a bit of a mess, but the relevant clauses and definitions could also be interpreted to give a free kick where a player throws the ball in a genuine attempt to dispose of the ball, but not where the player drops the ball in an attempt to kick the ball.

This is my understanding as well.

It is strange that there is a definition for correct and incorrect disposal, but also one for a throw, which is falls within the definition of an incorrect disposal. There seems to be an intent to treat a throw differently to everything else.

It should be noted that the concept of "incorrect disposal" only really applies in the context of an HTB decision (i.e. when a player is being tackled).

A throw is illegal at all times, regardless of whether or not a tackle is being applied.

The rules have definitions for kick, handball, and throw. Theoretically, players are free to dispose of the ball however they please, for most of the game. As far as I can tell, there's nothing to prevent a player from headbutting the ball as a means of disposal, provided they're not being tackled at the time!

 

[Vader]

Nice wall of text, but we were only talking about the bolded. You claimed dropping the ball while trying to kick with no prior would be a free. It's not.

Attempting to handball but failing is not a throw.

I was wrong on that one. It's not a free, provided the umpire is satisfied that the player is making a genuine attempt to dispose of the ball.

Attempting to handball, but failing, IS a throw. Here's the definition of a throw:

Throw: shall be given its ordinary meaning, but also includes the act of propelling the football with one or both hands in a scooping motion. For the avoidance of doubt, a Player does not throw the football if the Player hits, punches or taps the football without taking Possession of the Football.

If the player fails to make contact with a clenched fist, then it's almost certainly going to be classified as a scooping motion, in which case it will be called a throw.

 

[Scorpus]

This is...just not right?

Prior opportunity refers to the opportunity to dispose before the tackle.

While that's technically correct with the way the rule is worded, if you had any (prior) opportunity to dispose of the ball you are required to attempt to do so, regardless of when the tackle occurs. And if the tackle is not immediate, your obligation rises from an "attempt" to a "legal disposal"

Personally I think the rule should be reworded because a lot of fans complain about players "not having prior" who are then called for holding the ball (correctly) because they don't attempt a disposal. He actually did have a (prior to being penalized) opportunity to attempt a disposal, which is why it was called HTB

 

[Vader]

While that's technically correct with the way the rule is worded, if you had any (prior) opportunity to dispose of the ball you are required to attempt to do so, regardless of when the tackle occurs. And if the tackle is not immediate, your obligation rises from an "attempt" to a "legal disposal"

The way it's worded, if you've had prior opportunity, then you need to dispose of it "immediately" with a correct disposal. There's no "attempt" for a player who has had prior opportunity. Players can get away with an "attempt" if they haven't had prior opportunity.

 

[Scorpus]

How do you explain the HTBs given when the tackle (maybe a pat on the shoulder) occurs in the act of kicking the ball?

The rule says

18.6.2 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Prior Opportunity
Where a Player in Possession of the Football has had Prior Opportunity, a field Umpire shall
award a Free Kick if that Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football immediately
when they are Legally Tackled.

So at the moment of the tackle, the ball must be immediately disposed of. If the tackle occurs a split second before the ball is actually kicked (eg. in the act of kicking but before it hits the boot) then it would correctly be HTB

 

[Scorpus]

The way it's worded, if you've had prior opportunity, then you need to dispose of it "immediately" with a correct disposal. There's no "attempt" for a player who has had prior opportunity. Players can get away with an "attempt" if they haven't had prior opportunity.

Well if a player did have prior opportunity they're still required to attempt a disposal, it's just the attempt must result in a legal disposal

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

its for the coaching soft cap, not for the players salary cap

Sydney already have a better coaching group than most & don't need a leg up.