Opinion Non-Crows AFL 4: The Centre Cannot Hold

[AFC979810]

9 seasons, played finals 5 times, missed 4. So yeah, he's had good and bad years, but even the good years haven't produced a grand final appearance, never mind a premiership.

He's Port's Neil Craig. Although in fairness to Neil, he only missed the 8 twice before resigning.

In no way am I saying that he is the worlds best coach. But he has done a really good job with that club - especially considering the absolute basket case he took over.

Flags are damn hard to win.

 

[MRB37]

Would we have really wanted a rudderless Geelong type review that had them flogged sideways out of the finals the next year because they are old and now is a dads army joke of a squad bound for a hawthorn fall.

Last article I saw from Geelong was "Chris Scott isn't making excuses" and then he was doing nothing but making excuses for why they lost.

 

[relapse]

You as blind as a bat old son.

Port played some pretty good footy in 2020 when they lost by a kick to the eventual premiers in a preliminary final.

Hinkley has done a pretty good job for the Power. I feel he will be ultimately unsuccessful in winning a flag, but those lambasting him have short memories and have obviously forgotten the Primus years.

Keep in mind too that Port had a lot going their way in 2020.

2020 was an anomaly, they only played 1 actual away game against Brisbane, every other away game was played at a neutral venue while on the flip side they had home games in front of crowds.

Both Port and Brisbane will never have a better chance to win a flag than they did in 2020.

I actually think that a half decent coach wouldn't let a chance like that slide.

He's their version of Neil Craig, always near enough, but never good enough.

 

[AFC979810]

My opinion .....Scott has to be the luckiest Coach to have survived this long ....been given access to some of the best talent via trades and go home factors, of any club .....but still can't snare a flag

Bomber Thompson assembled a team, built it, to win flags .....Scott, has traded off the back of Thompson's work, and thrown players into the side, to fluke a flag

I would have got rid of him ages ago ....both Scott brothers as bad as each other ....already you can see a plan at NORTH, you could never see at either club under the Scott bros

I don't argue that Chris Scott is one lucky MotherF$$$$. But you aint firing him.

Its pretty tough to fire a premiership coach who has the highest winning percentage in the history of the AFL (Coaches who have coached under 25 games are excluded). And has only missed the finals once in his 11 seasons.

 

[Mutineer]

LOL

Kane Cornes' early predictions for the 2022 AFL season

Kane Cornes has given his predictions for the 2022 AFL season at this early stage of the year.

www.sen.com.au

See Cornes’ predictions below

Premiership: Western Bulldogs

Brownlow Medal: Clayton Oliver

10

Clayton Oliver

Age

28

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.8

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

18.4

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

6.3

5star

CL

6.3

5star

D

25.1

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.6

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

19.2

5star

K

4.6

2star

HB

14.6

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

4.4

5star

CL

3.8

5star

Wooden Spoon: Adelaide

Headline Kane would like to see in 2022: A key defender wins the Brownlow

 

[relapse]

View attachment 1329170

LOL

Kane Cornes' early predictions for the 2022 AFL season

Kane Cornes has given his predictions for the 2022 AFL season at this early stage of the year.

www.sen.com.au

See Cornes’ predictions below

Premiership: Western Bulldogs

Brownlow Medal: Clayton Oliver

Wooden Spoon: Adelaide

Headline Kane would like to see in 2022: A key defender wins the Brownlow

What a clown

Though what would you expect from Kane when his football analysis runs as deep as a puddle of water.

We won't be finishing bottom next year, this will be another stupid call from Kane that will come back to bite him.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I don't argue that Chris Scott is one lucky MotherF$$$$. But you aint firing him.

Its pretty tough to fire a premiership coach who has the highest winning percentage in the history of the AFL (Coaches who have coached under 25 games are excluded). And has only missed the finals once in his 11 seasons.

And would your opinion be different, if Scott had been coaching the Crows for 11 seasons, with those results ???

 

[GROTTO]

And would your opinion be different, if Scott had been coaching the Crows for 11 seasons, with those results ???

Ken Hinkley says hello.

Fingers crossed he gets another contract extension before the finals.

 

[Thetrader15]

Ha ha - Lever and Cameron maybe? Not like they went on to become All Australians.

But I guess you are right. Losing the bulk of that squad from 2016 - 2017 when we went 31-12-1 really didn't hurt. Cause if it was that important we probably would have ended up missing the finals the next 4 seasons with a combined 34-53 record and our first wooden spoon!

We are just unlucky I guess. Our recruiters just love money hungry players.

Well we had the bulk of the squad still there in 2018 and 2019 missed the finals both years (24-24) with such an experienced group.

If only we kept them all together for one more season, those 2 years were just unlucky.

 

[AFC979810]

And would your opinion be different, if Scott had been coaching the Crows for 11 seasons, with those results ???

You kidding me?!?!?!?

I would sell my own mother right now if it could guarantee the Crows winning 1 flag and having 1 grand final loss & 4 prelim final losses over the next 11 years.

You would think after a 23 year premiership drought - so many of y'all wouldn't think premierships grow on trees.

 

[AFC979810]

Well we had the bulk of the squad still there in 2018 and 2019 missed the finals both years (24-24) with such an experienced group.

If only we kept them all together for one more season, those 2 years were just unlucky.

We got progressively worse every year for 3 consecutive years culminating in a Wooden Spoon as we kept losing more and more players (and not replacing them).

 

[Vader]

We got progressively worse every year for 3 consecutive years culminating in a Wooden Spoon as we kept losing more and more players (and not replacing them).

It's called a rebuild.

The club identified that the list which went to the 2017 GF had peaked, and for the first time in the club's history they bit the bullet and accepted that hovering in the mid-pack wasn't going to move us closer to our next premiership. As a result, they made a conscious decision to release players of value, with the aim of building a team from the ground up - one which would (hopefully) be capable of winning our next flag.

I, for one, am not unhappy with the concept of short term pain for (hopefully) long term success. The alternative, 20 years of sustained mediocrity, clearly wasn't getting us any closer to that elusive 3rd flag. The club has finally taken a different approach - maybe it will work, maybe not. At least we now have a chance of winning a flag in the foreseeable future, a chance which didn't previously exist.

 

[Thetrader15]

We got progressively worse every year for 3 consecutive years culminating in a Wooden Spoon as we kept losing more and more players (and not replacing them).

So losing Charlie Cameron and Jake Lever for Gibbs and Doedee was the difference of 3.5 games in 2018 ? (15-6-1 -> 12-10)
Or McGovern out made us lose another 2 games in 2019?

Perhaps we should have paid them the big bucks they wanted afterall...but then we'd have lost Greenwood, Keath and because our cap was full...

 

[skam85]

It's called a rebuild.

The club identified that the list which went to the 2017 GF had peaked, and for the first time in the club's history they bit the bullet and accepted that hovering in the mid-pack wasn't going to move us closer to our next premiership. As a result, they made a conscious decision to release players of value, with the aim of building a team from the ground up - one which would (hopefully) be capable of winning our next flag.

I, for one, am not unhappy with the concept of short term pain for (hopefully) long term success. The alternative, 20 years of sustained mediocrity, clearly wasn't getting us any closer to that elusive 3rd flag. The club has finally taken a different approach - maybe it will work, maybe not. At least we now have a chance of winning a flag in the foreseeable future, a chance which didn't previously exist.

We didn't even attempt anything close to a half baked rebuild until Pyke was gone.

We played Jacobs and Douglas in the last game of 2019!

 

[arrowman]

I, for one, am not unhappy with the concept of short term pain for (hopefully) long term success. The alternative, 20 years of sustained mediocrity, clearly wasn't getting us any closer to that elusive 3rd flag. The club has finally taken a different approach - maybe it will work, maybe not. At least we now have a chance of winning a flag in the foreseeable future, a chance which didn't previously exist.

Absolutely. But...

The club identified that the list which went to the 2017 GF had peaked, and for the first time in the club's history they bit the bullet and accepted that hovering in the mid-pack wasn't going to move us closer to our next premiership. As a result, they made a conscious decision to release players of value, with the aim of building a team from the ground up - one which would (hopefully) be capable of winning our next flag.

Disagree. In 2018 the club basically persisted with the same list (involuntary changes aside), which was understandable - you don't start gutting the list and rebuilding after a GF appearance. Maybe end of 2018 they should have realised the list rebuild was needed, maybe they thought they had put the 2018 stuff (camp etc) behind them. But really, the commitment to a rebuild didn't start until the end of 2019, which with the benefit of hindsight at least, was a year too late.

 

[Vader]

Absolutely. But...

Disagree. In 2018 the club basically persisted with the same list (involuntary changes aside), which was understandable - you don't start gutting the list and rebuilding after a GF appearance. Maybe end of 2018 they should have realised the list rebuild was needed, maybe they thought they had put the 2018 stuff (camp etc) behind them. But really, the commitment to a rebuild didn't start until the end of 2019, which with the benefit of hindsight at least, was a year too late.

I think they blamed the disappointment of 2018 on a horrendous injury list, which everyone outside the walls of West Lakes knew to be the direct result of Burton & Hass' staggering incompetence. Then 2019 made it abundantly clear that 2018 wasn't an injury-induced abberation, that the list had gone as far as it could - and a rebuild was needed.

The 2019 post-season was when the rebuild began in earnest.

 

[Golumless]

It's called a rebuild.

The club identified that the list which went to the 2017 GF had peaked, and for the first time in the club's history they bit the bullet and accepted that hovering in the mid-pack wasn't going to move us closer to our next premiership. As a result, they made a conscious decision to release players of value, with the aim of building a team from the ground up - one which would (hopefully) be capable of winning our next flag.

I, for one, am not unhappy with the concept of short term pain for (hopefully) long term success. The alternative, 20 years of sustained mediocrity, clearly wasn't getting us any closer to that elusive 3rd flag. The club has finally taken a different approach - maybe it will work, maybe not. At least we now have a chance of winning a flag in the foreseeable future, a chance which didn't previously exist.

The club did not identify that nor did we make any conscious decisions to rebuild. Not only that but if we had a choice, we would have gladly continued on as a mid table rabble.

We're in a rebuild because the back end of 2019 forced us into it. Where everything just imploded to the point that our own players downed tools to get the coaching group sacked. A set of circumstances that has seen every major player at the club (bar Tex, Reid and Sloane) replaced in the last two years.

 

[arrowman]

I don't argue that Chris Scott is one lucky MotherF$$$$. But you aint firing him.

Its pretty tough to fire a premiership coach who has the highest winning percentage in the history of the AFL (Coaches who have coached under 25 games are excluded). And has only missed the finals once in his 11 seasons.

Scott, Craig and Hinkley, as a group, are case studies in persistence with a "near enough but not good enough" coach.

There's nothing wrong with persisting with a coach (and obviously working on other things) rather than chopping and changing every 3 years, but once you get to the 5+ year mark...

- Craig: Good coach, let's not deny it, 2x PFs, had the team humming like a machine, could have had 1-2 GFs and 1-2 flags with a little luck. He was - what - 7-8 years in the job before he gave it away voluntarily (I assume) - possibly that was 2 years or so too long. Good, but not close enough, thanks Neil, let's try something / someone else.

- Scott: Same, but has a flag. I don't think that flag counts for a whole lot, given he inherited that team and as they say, a team that could have coached itself. Sure, consistent finals appearances, and a(nother) GF, and he hasn't been helped by the club's Dad's Army rolling topup philosophy, but surely his best-by date has passed.

- Hinkley - Similar record to Craig, not as consistent as Scott, reappointed on the basis of nothing much apart from "continuity". Surely the PAFC can see that the last 2 years were his peak as a coach, not the first steps towards the ultimate success.

Of the three, I rate them Scott -> small gap -> Craig -> daylight -> Hinkley.

 

[AFC979810]

View attachment 1329170

LOL

Kane Cornes' early predictions for the 2022 AFL season

Kane Cornes has given his predictions for the 2022 AFL season at this early stage of the year.

www.sen.com.au

See Cornes’ predictions below

Premiership: Western Bulldogs

Brownlow Medal: Clayton Oliver

Wooden Spoon: Adelaide

Headline Kane would like to see in 2022: A key defender wins the Brownlow

Not so laughable unfortunately. Kane is just playing the numbers.

We enter 2022 with the most inexperienced list in the AFL in both age and games played. Here is were clubs have finished when they were the 18th least experienced in both games and age over the past 5 years.

2020 - Gold Coast - 14th
2019 - Gold Coast - Wooden Spoon
2017 - Brisbane - Wooden Spoon
2016 - Brisbane - 17th

Combine that with the fact we have finished last and 4th last.

 

[baldandbroke]

Scott, Craig and Hinkley, as a group, are case studies in persistence with a "near enough but not good enough" coach.

There's nothing wrong with persisting with a coach (and obviously working on other things) rather than chopping and changing every 3 years, but once you get to the 5+ year mark...

- Craig: Good coach, let's not deny it, 2x PFs, had the team humming like a machine, could have had 1-2 GFs and 1-2 flags with a little luck. He was - what - 7-8 years in the job before he gave it away voluntarily (I assume) - possibly that was 2 years or so too long. Good, but not close enough, thanks Neil, let's try something / someone else.

- Scott: Same, but has a flag. I don't think that flag counts for a whole lot, given he inherited that team and as they say, a team that could have coached itself. Sure, consistent finals appearances, and a(nother) GF, and he hasn't been helped by the club's Dad's Army rolling topup philosophy, but surely his best-by date has passed.

- Hinkley - Similar record to Craig, not as consistent as Scott, reappointed on the basis of nothing much apart from "continuity". Surely the PAFC can see that the last 2 years were his peak as a coach, not the first steps towards the ultimate success.

Of the three, I rate them Scott -> small gap -> Craig -> daylight -> Hinkley.

Some coaches arrive, change very little and just keep the machine going …eg Scott

Some coaches change the culture and the cattle… then keep the machine going. eg Craig, Hinkley, Horse, maybe Hardwick?

Some coaches change the culture and the cattle… and don’t stop innovating. eg Clarkson, maybe Blight?

I think all three types can win premierships. All three can be short term success or failure. All three can create a dynasty.

But ultimately the cattle you have at each phase / season / games determine success for a lot of coaches.

 

[AFC979810]

It's called a rebuild.

The club identified that the list which went to the 2017 GF had peaked, and for the first time in the club's history they bit the bullet and accepted that hovering in the mid-pack wasn't going to move us closer to our next premiership. As a result, they made a conscious decision to release players of value, with the aim of building a team from the ground up - one which would (hopefully) be capable of winning our next flag.

I, for one, am not unhappy with the concept of short term pain for (hopefully) long term success. The alternative, 20 years of sustained mediocrity, clearly wasn't getting us any closer to that elusive 3rd flag. The club has finally taken a different approach - maybe it will work, maybe not. At least we now have a chance of winning a flag in the foreseeable future, a chance which didn't previously exist.

We had a club that in 2014 - identified the premiership window would OPEN in 2017. We then climbed the ladder each year 2015-2017 culminating in a grand final loss.

According to you - we then realized we had peaked so didn't want to pay for Jake Lever (23 year old KPD who would become an All Australian) and Charlie Cameron (23 year old who would become Brisbanes leading goal kicker 3 years in a row and an All Australian) and then bring in 28 year old Bryce Gibbs to assist with the rebuild.

Sounds logical mate. Ask yourself a very simple question.

Why in the world would we rebuild our team in 2017?

Our lists average age was 25 years 11 months. Richmonds was 25 years 1 month. Our average games of experience was 108.7 and Richmonds was 104.1.

We had Brodie Smith (26), Mitch McGovern (23), Wayne Milera (20) and Alex Keath (26) all not play in the Grand Final.

2017 should have been the start of years of sustained premiership contention, but we completely arsed it up.

Make no mistake - we started the rebuild in September of 2019 when we fired Don Pyke.

 

[AFC979810]

So losing Charlie Cameron and Jake Lever for Gibbs and Doedee was the difference of 3.5 games in 2018 ? (15-6-1 -> 12-10)
Or McGovern out made us lose another 2 games in 2019?

Perhaps we should have paid them the big bucks they wanted afterall...but then we'd have lost Greenwood, Keath and because our cap was full...

Well I think it was a combination of that. Plus the camp. Plus the fact that we were completely incapable of keeping best 22 players.

How the hell can all the other clubs keep their stars. Brisbane/Geelong/Hawthorn have all managed to keep their stars through extended dynasty's. Our little brother has had pretty similar success as we have had between the years of 2009 - 2021. Compare the players that have walked out on them.

Why were we the only club that couldn't afford to keep good players between 2009-2021?

 

[AFC979810]

Scott, Craig and Hinkley, as a group, are case studies in persistence with a "near enough but not good enough" coach.

There's nothing wrong with persisting with a coach (and obviously working on other things) rather than chopping and changing every 3 years, but once you get to the 5+ year mark...

- Craig: Good coach, let's not deny it, 2x PFs, had the team humming like a machine, could have had 1-2 GFs and 1-2 flags with a little luck. He was - what - 7-8 years in the job before he gave it away voluntarily (I assume) - possibly that was 2 years or so too long. Good, but not close enough, thanks Neil, let's try something / someone else.

- Scott: Same, but has a flag. I don't think that flag counts for a whole lot, given he inherited that team and as they say, a team that could have coached itself. Sure, consistent finals appearances, and a(nother) GF, and he hasn't been helped by the club's Dad's Army rolling topup philosophy, but surely his best-by date has passed.

- Hinkley - Similar record to Craig, not as consistent as Scott, reappointed on the basis of nothing much apart from "continuity". Surely the PAFC can see that the last 2 years were his peak as a coach, not the first steps towards the ultimate success.

Of the three, I rate them Scott -> small gap -> Craig -> daylight -> Hinkley.

But that's the issue with how fine the line is between success and failure at AFL level.

Malcolm Blight was an umpires decision away from being in that category and having "failed at 4 clubs".

Paul Roos and John Worsfold are both a kick away from being in the near enough category and also a kick away from being dual premiership coaches.

Ross Lyon an unlucky bounce of the ball from exiting the near enough category.

Nathan Buckley a dom sheed kick away from it.

John Longmuire is in that category if Gunston doesn't hit the post late in the 4th quarter of the 2012 grand final.

Why anyone would want to fire a coach who is good enough to get his team to the top 4 of an 18 team league in the previous season is just crazy to me.

 

[Scorpus]

The club did not identify that nor did we make any conscious decisions to rebuild. Not only that but if we had a choice, we would have gladly continued on as a mid table rabble.

We're in a rebuild because the back end of 2019 forced us into it. Where everything just imploded to the point that our own players downed tools to get the coaching group sacked. A set of circumstances that has seen every major player at the club (bar Tex, Reid and Sloane) replaced in the last two years.

Vader never said they identified they peaked in 2017 immediately after 2017. They did identify that was correctly the case though (at the end of 2019)

We had the bulk of our squad available in 2018-19 and didn't want to lose any players. It's why we added Gibbs. As soon as that didn't work because we had overrated the capabilities of our squad, then we started pushing out anyone of value

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

Not so laughable unfortunately. Kane is just playing the numbers.

We enter 2022 with the most inexperienced list in the AFL in both age and games played. Here is were clubs have finished when they were the 18th least experienced in both games and age over the past 5 years.

2020 - Gold Coast - 14th
2019 - Gold Coast - Wooden Spoon
2018 - Brisbane - Wooden Spoon
2016 - Brisbane - 17th

Combine that with the fact we have finished last and 4th last.

Brisbane didn’t win the spoon in 2018.