Pagan on SEN

[cfc05]

Did any other supporters get a chance to listen to his interview on SEN around 9.45 this morning?

Sounded very positive and upbeat (as you do after a win) and was very happy with the work of the younger guys. Spoke alot about the kids, houlihan &scotland, Fevola, captaincy and where he thinks Carlton are at.

"one good draft away from really challenging" Pagan

 

[barnesy]

I raised this on Talking Carlton, Big Footy, and sent it too the club.

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11729

Doesn't mean it made any difference, but some of the points I noted have been mentioned.

ie

- talk up the upcoming draft

- mention Hartlett / Bower - in press conference mentioned

Talk up where we are at.

Pagan mentioned like the grand national hurdles, 32 jumps and we are about 26 jumps through the race.

It now comes down too the argument of will we still get a similar amount of development throught the younger guys through good games and honourable losses and keep our 3 picks in the top 20, or do we win one or two by a couple of points scraping over the line and have that change the landscape for us in the National Draft.

Never a right or wrong.

 

[BlueWorld]

Mentioned how hard everyone's been working, putting it together for 3 quarters or 80% of the game. Have struggled to remain up beat but have managed to do so. That we were playing better than our win loss ratio suggests and good for morale that we finally put it together for 4 quarters and came away with reward for our effort.

 

[BlueFeaver]

I raised this on Talking Carlton, Big Footy, and sent it too the club.

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11729

Doesn't mean it made any difference, but some of the points I noted have been mentioned.

ie

- talk up the upcoming draft

- mention Hartlett / Bower - in press conference mentioned

Talk up where we are at.

Pagan mentioned like the grand national hurdles, 32 jumps and we are about 26 jumps through the race.

It now comes down too the argument of will we still get a similar amount of development throught the younger guys through good games and honourable losses and keep our 3 picks in the top 20, or do we win one or two by a couple of points scraping over the line and have that change the landscape for us in the National Draft.

Never a right or wrong.

I actually wrote a letter to club very similar to yours about a month back, as I feel if the club shows a clear direction for the future the external pressure will be releived.

My point was to create a united front with a clear plan for both on-field and off-field.

One of my biggest questions at the moment is ability of Smorgan and Malouf to guide us out of this current financial mire. They seem very good managers and businessmen but are they able to restucture and build a business to a successfull entity. They both don't seem to be pro-active in this department.

Your points about press releases etc are all spot-on, the club needs to go forward in this department. With the competitiveness of the Melbourne market we can't rely on our brand name alone.

Your point about scraping through for a couple of wins v's honourable loses is a interesting one. I agree there is no easy answer, but I think for the longterm it would be best to continue in the same vein and play the kids as much as possible. If we win, great, if we don't, so be it. I'm not saying to tank, but I am saying to use this last 4 weeks as a plat-form for the future one way or another.

As someone said on big footy "only one draft away".

 

[HBF]

Winning games IMO is better than an extra draft pick, even if this years draft is going to be quite deep. 2 picks inside the top 20 is good enough, considering the amount of good yound kids we have at the club atm.

 

[jj1978]

If we win the next two and perhaps finish 14th instead of 15/16th there will be more a buzz I feel in supporter attitude that there would of been picking up Gibbs. This will lead to better revenue next year and more of a spirit amongst the team.

Remember the buzz in 2004 when we won 10 games... and then followed that up with a pre-season victory.... Membership was at a high for we won....

Last year we finished last and got the top pick!!! Getting that top pick didn't increase membership whatsoever!

 

[HBF]

If we win the next two and perhaps finish 14th instead of 15/16th there will be more a buzz I feel in supporter attitude that there would of been picking up Gibbs. This will lead to better revenue next year and more of a spirit amongst the team.

Remember the buzz in 2004 when we won 10 games... and then followed that up with a pre-season victory.... Membership was at a high for we won....

Last year we finished last and got the top pick!!! Getting that top pick didn't increase membership whatsoever!

Nicely said jj.

 

[Sticks 4]

If we win the next two and perhaps finish 14th instead of 15/16th there will be more a buzz I feel in supporter attitude that there would of been picking up Gibbs. This will lead to better revenue next year and more of a spirit amongst the team.

Remember the buzz in 2004 when we won 10 games... and then followed that up with a pre-season victory.... Membership was at a high for we won....

Last year we finished last and got the top pick!!! Getting that top pick didn't increase membership whatsoever!

Winning games and creating a winning culture is what we should be about, not draft picks. Give us all something to look forward to for next season

 

[Silvagnis]

I prefer to have honourable losses.

If Pagan is indeed on the way out, he should play kids such as Jackson, Smith, etc. and ensure that the club which made him a richman has the best possible hand at the draft.

We might have good kids, but would you throw away the second round pick we have at the moment for a win?

So why do we want to lose a bonus selection with a win against two poor sides?

The memberships might not have increased with the picks we had last year (poor performances at the start of the year were a factor), but potential members will still see honourable losses as a pre-cursor of better times ahead.

The Hawks didn't have any trouble selling memberships on the back of last year.

 

[SA Blue]

If Pagan is indeed on the way out, he should play kids such as Jackson, Smith, etc. and ensure that the club which made him a richman has the best possible hand at the draft.
QUOTE]

Comments like that show you really do not understand Pagan and what drives him.

I would like yourself or anyone else calling for tanking, to stand in front of the players who have busted their guts this year and tell them you would prefer honourable losses. How would this help the club?

I can understand from a techncial point of view what you are saying, but really think about the players and what you are calling for.

 

[parrot]

Pagan has coped a lot of criticism, but this guy really knows how to develop our younger players. He's had a heap of experience at North. The fact is, it takes time to do this properly. The way he's handled Walker's development is a classic example. Teams like Freo, Richmond etc, would have just put him in the midfield or forward line - relying on a few spectacular efforts every so often. Denis has really developed him carefully, and it looks like he'll be a much better player because of it. Similar development is occurring with J Russell, Setanta, Blackwell, Eddie Betts etc. The rare player like Marc Murphy comes along, who's a gun from day 1 - not many can do that.

 

[ShlomoGlickstein]

Ultimately we have to win games becuase no business model relating to a sporting club will work when they are at rock bottom, unless we start getting some sort of media circus ala Eddie Spaghetti - maybe we can get Hughesy and some other celebrities to sell & publicise the club?

The last two years have been remarkably pathetic. While achievement as a sportsman in front of thousands of people is alot more admirable and needs more talents than some suit who delegates everything (though I imagine Smorgo is a pretty 'hands on' guy??), when yr not performing changes have to be made.

Pagan has gone on many times in SEN saying the hardest thing for him as a coach is to tell players they just don't cut the mustard. All this hogwash in the press that Smorgo is being 'unfooty' about imposing a review on Pago's coaching panel is laughable, considering the VIP treatment Pago has had @ this club both finacially and in regards to the power and contract he wields and who he chooses to help him out.

But four years in with one of the most pathetic win/loss ratios in recent times - despite knowing full well beforehand that draft penalties would hurt - makes you start to wonder the politics over logic that is going down.

Sure, look @ a team like Hawthorn who had no penalties and are still a joke despite the draft helping them, but they have had coach changes. Sure Pagan's ego and dedidcation to his mates is a factor, but if helping out yr mates is destroying a team, well that DEFINTELY AIN'T FOOTY.

 

[as0l0]

Sure, look @ a team like Hawthorn who had no penalties and are still a joke despite the draft helping them, but they have had coach changes.

your all over the place here mate. which is better, changing coaches or not changing coaches?

 

[mediumsizered]

I prefer to have honourable losses.

If Pagan is indeed on the way out, he should play kids such as Jackson, Smith, etc. and ensure that the club which made him a richman has the best possible hand at the draft.

We might have good kids, but would you throw away the second round pick we have at the moment for a win?

So why do we want to lose a bonus selection with a win against two poor sides?

The memberships might not have increased with the picks we had last year (poor performances at the start of the year were a factor), but potential members will still see honourable losses as a pre-cursor of better times ahead.

The Hawks didn't have any trouble selling memberships on the back of last year.

Potential members will not join up on the back of so called honourable losses. We have had 5 years in the bottom half of the ladder. Our current membership reflects that. You are not going to increase your membership unless there is some indication that the team is going to start winning more games and start climbing the ladder. If we could string together 3 or even 4 wins in a row, then follow it up with a reasonable pre-season, memberships will increase. If we lose the last 4 games we will finish on 3 1/2 wins. That is one win less than last season. How do you convince potential members that even though we have gone backwards, we are actually going forward? It is ridiculous to think that one extra pick in the draft is going to make a major difference to our long term fortunes. There may well be another Kade Simpson tucked away in the 3rd or 4th round of the draft, or maybe a Brad Fisher tucked away in the 5th or 6th round. Regardless, a winning mentality is far more valuable than an extra unproven 17/18 year old.

FWIW, Hawthorn's membership is less than ours, yet through the '90s they were one of the pacesetters when it came to membership. They went beyond 30k long before Carlton, but there lack of any current indications that they are about to ascend the ladder in a hurry, has impacted on their membership, having now been leapfrogged by Carlton, Richmond, Geelong and St Kilda.

 

[ShlomoGlickstein]

your all over the place here mate. which is better, changing coaches or not changing coaches?

Well with Pagan's FANTASTIC win/loss ratio @ Carlton, a change of coach would be one step forward, but the reality of the modern business of sport, that will not happen until his cataract, I mean contract has dutifully expired.

 

[bibi01]

Ultimately we have to win games becuase no business model relating to a sporting club will work when they are at rock bottom, unless we start getting some sort of media circus ala Eddie Spaghetti - maybe we can get Hughesy and some other celebrities to sell & publicise the club?

The last two years have been remarkably pathetic. While achievement as a sportsman in front of thousands of people is alot more admirable and needs more talents than some suit who delegates everything (though I imagine Smorgo is a pretty 'hands on' guy??), when yr not performing changes have to be made.

Pagan has gone on many times in SEN saying the hardest thing for him as a coach is to tell players they just don't cut the mustard. All this hogwash in the press that Smorgo is being 'unfooty' about imposing a review on Pago's coaching panel is laughable, considering the VIP treatment Pago has had @ this club both finacially and in regards to the power and contract he wields and who he chooses to help him out.

But four years in with one of the most pathetic win/loss ratios in recent times - despite knowing full well beforehand that draft penalties would hurt - makes you start to wonder the politics over logic that is going down.

Sure, look @ a team like Hawthorn who had no penalties and are still a joke despite the draft helping them, but they have had coach changes. Sure Pagan's ego and dedidcation to his mates is a factor, but if helping out yr mates is destroying a team, well that DEFINTELY AIN'T FOOTY.

lets's get something right, pagan was signed before the draft penalties were handed down.

 

[BlueFeaver]

The whole current situation can be read in a lot of different ways.

1. Is Smorgans stance on Pagan to do with Pagans loyalty to his assistants. Are they at logger heads over the performance and the up coming review.

2. Is Smorgan trying to take full control of the club and letting Pagan know who is boss and that he (Pagan) is accountable for the teams success.

3. Is the CFC getting pressure from the afl on the size of the Pagan contract. Have we been told to trim down some of the expenses, which may result in re-negotiation of Pagans contract.

4. Is the club trying to push Pagan to a uncomfortable position hoping that he will resign and forfiet the rest of his contract. Allowing the club to recruite a younger and cheaper senior coach. This will save the club money and face.

5. Or is it just a complete review and Smorgan doesn't want anyone to feel comfortable and to bring their A-game for the rest of the season.

6. Is Pagan trying to create a storm because secretely he feels he is not up to the job and wants out. If he gets sacked for sticking with his assistants he will get the full contract paid out and will walk away the "good guy".

 

[as0l0]

Well with Pagan's FANTASTIC win/loss ratio @ Carlton, a change of coach would be one step forward, but the reality of the modern business of sport, that will not happen until his cataract, I mean contract has dutifully expired.

so, just to be clear on your previous comments. Hawthorn is better off because they had a change of coach? And had we changed coach as Hawthorn did we would be right up there with Hawthorn?