Kane McGoodwin
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- May 21, 2001
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Agree Stiffy that Mattner is only a HBF or a wingman.Stiffy_18 said:
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Playing List Overhaul
- Thread starter MaccasNeighbour
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- #27
ok all about this trading and delisting thing.
biglands has got to go. hudson can easily replace him because he is very competitive. just make krueger or dabrowski a 3rd string ruckman.
remember skippy has had his chances and he is looking like a injury prone player.
NOW, bode should not be delisted or traded. he is injured and before that he was playing some good footy.
shirley. trade bait. try and get another tagger if stinger goes otherwise keep him.
ladhams. starved of oppurtunities this season, played good footy for the roosters and earned his spot back. a must keep for next year as a goal-sneak or a 2nd string midfielder joining johncock, bode, reilly and shirley.
biglands has got to go. hudson can easily replace him because he is very competitive. just make krueger or dabrowski a 3rd string ruckman.
remember skippy has had his chances and he is looking like a injury prone player.
NOW, bode should not be delisted or traded. he is injured and before that he was playing some good footy.
shirley. trade bait. try and get another tagger if stinger goes otherwise keep him.
ladhams. starved of oppurtunities this season, played good footy for the roosters and earned his spot back. a must keep for next year as a goal-sneak or a 2nd string midfielder joining johncock, bode, reilly and shirley.
Ok – here goes my attempt at list review
Gone – Carey/Nigel/Ronnie
Staying – No Arguments - Roo / Hart / Hentschel / Kenny McG / Stiffy / Edwards / Welshy
Happy to keep if they want to stay and play 4 quarters, otherwise excellent trade bait. - Andy Mc / Goody / Stinger
Keep – have showed heaps – and probably the future of the club - Begley / Reilly / Jericho / Mattner / Rutten
Too early to tell – but keep - Watts / Freddy Krueger
Ruck Division – only keep 1 (but I’ll settle for 2) of
Clarke, Biglands and Rock – this is our weakness – but I can’t see any of these being Polly Farmer anytime soon – so we can only afford to carry 2 of them. 1 of Biglands or Clarke to go – I say ta ta Clarke because of age.
Old heads to retain - Mark Stevens / Bassett / Torney
Trade hopefully or delist in this order
Massie
Shirley – 50 games in 5 years
S Stevens
Gaggs – 40 games in 4 years
Bode – 50 games in 4 years
Schuback
Ladhams – 50 games in 4 years
Skippy – has shown signs
Perrie – 70 games in 7 years
Doughty – when he makes mistakes – they’re shockers – and peaked 2 years ago
Burton – where do I start
Bock – handy but will never command a 1st 22 spot
Not much here on offer for trade and the club will decide how far we get down this list
Parker – redraft
Smith – 0 games in 4 years !!
Comments ?
Gone – Carey/Nigel/Ronnie
Staying – No Arguments - Roo / Hart / Hentschel / Kenny McG / Stiffy / Edwards / Welshy
Happy to keep if they want to stay and play 4 quarters, otherwise excellent trade bait. - Andy Mc / Goody / Stinger
Keep – have showed heaps – and probably the future of the club - Begley / Reilly / Jericho / Mattner / Rutten
Too early to tell – but keep - Watts / Freddy Krueger
Ruck Division – only keep 1 (but I’ll settle for 2) of
Clarke, Biglands and Rock – this is our weakness – but I can’t see any of these being Polly Farmer anytime soon – so we can only afford to carry 2 of them. 1 of Biglands or Clarke to go – I say ta ta Clarke because of age.
Old heads to retain - Mark Stevens / Bassett / Torney
Trade hopefully or delist in this order
Massie
Shirley – 50 games in 5 years
S Stevens
Gaggs – 40 games in 4 years
Bode – 50 games in 4 years
Schuback
Ladhams – 50 games in 4 years
Skippy – has shown signs
Perrie – 70 games in 7 years
Doughty – when he makes mistakes – they’re shockers – and peaked 2 years ago
Burton – where do I start
Bock – handy but will never command a 1st 22 spot
Not much here on offer for trade and the club will decide how far we get down this list
Parker – redraft
Smith – 0 games in 4 years !!
Comments ?
Stiffy_18 said:
This is brilliant...thanks Stiffy
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Stiffy_18 said:
Why the hell would they have signed Massie, Shirley and Ladhams - it's got me. Now my biggest gripe, is whoever signed S Stevens to a 2 year contract needs his contract ceased. Unfortunatey, he is way to hessitant to succeed at AFL level and it is also quite obvious that he is very hessitant - ditto Jericho.
Mad Dog said:
Thats a huge player turnover and a bit extreme if you ask me.
Bode Bock and Doughty is a huge call! Doughty was playin some good footy before Farmer smashed him. Bode aswell was getting a very harsh deal under Ayres at the start of the season but when he was given a chance he was awesome.
I was all for Perrie being traded or delisted a few weeks ago but I think he has come on really well since being given a shot and I think he would be very handy to have at least next year while Watts develops.
Burton IMO is playing out of position and should be played up forward where he can utilise some of his strengths in marking and goal kicking, even if that comes at the expense of his aerobic fitness.
OK Massie and Ladhams signed on for 2 years last year so their contracts are still running. Word is that Shirley was signed up recently and one can only assume the reason behind it is that Stinger is gone.SpringChoke said:
Usually when you trade for a player you sign him up for 2 years and Scott Stevens is no different.
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Stiffy_18 said:
This much is true.
Who could forgot his job on Woewodin in Round 7 last year, when he let the 2000 Brownlow Medallist rack up 32 disposals and 2 goals in a MOTM performance?
Having said that, Marty has improved out of sight in the past 18 months and probably deserves another go in a 'permanent' run-with role - let's not forget why Shane Crawford's season ended.
I agree that he has improved BUT I just can't see Mattner picking up someone like Buckley or Voss or Haselby week in week out. Yes his defensive game is fantastic. His tackling is deadly but to be a good successfull tagger you have to have great discipline and concentration. Something that Mattner doesn't havedyertribe said:
Why the hell would we get rid of Perrie when;
a.) we wouldn't get anything of value for him anyway
b.) he offers us something that we don't us (especially as M.Stevo is just about gone, and even if he stayed on, Perrie can do a similar role for a much longer period).
Shirley has to go, IMO. macca23 only heard from a relative of Shirley's that he had been re-signed, so I'll wait for an official announcement before I believe it. His disposal is crap. As for a tagging option, we can put Edwards and Goodwin head to head with opposition midfielders, we have Reilly, Stiffy and possibly Schuback who can do run-with roles as a learning excercise, Doughty and Massie are options, whilst Mattner, as DT mentioned, has improved to the point where he could be given another go at it if required.
Massie should be kept, he was in great form last year and early this year before a couple of bad games which Ayres decided to specifically highlight. When in-form he is a solid player who is one of the few players on our list (apart from Roo) who gives us some grunt.
Schuback is a must keep. Similarly to Perrie, we wouldn't get anything of note for him, and he is still young. When fit he can be excellent for us, just look at his game against Hawthorn this year. He was great as a crumbing forward who gives good defensive pressure in the forward line. We lack a crumber so he can be that player - pretty obvious, IMO.
As for Biglands playing in the forward line; when we have Welsh (and also Jericho) as leading forwards from the square, who have excellent pace and can be very damaging (mainly Welsh) if they are given space to lead into, why would we block up that space with a dopey ruckman? Ayres continually blocked up our forward line during his time, and we scratched our heads as to why we weren't kicking winning scores despite the fact we knew Carey couldn't mark over his head. So why we persisted with bombing it long to a crowded forward line has me fingered.
I know I've rambled a bit here, but I get a bit sick and tired of people saying, "trade Perrie, he's ********" and "get rid of Schuback, he's done nothing" etc, when they aren't looking at the realities of our side.
a.) we wouldn't get anything of value for him anyway
b.) he offers us something that we don't us (especially as M.Stevo is just about gone, and even if he stayed on, Perrie can do a similar role for a much longer period).
Shirley has to go, IMO. macca23 only heard from a relative of Shirley's that he had been re-signed, so I'll wait for an official announcement before I believe it. His disposal is crap. As for a tagging option, we can put Edwards and Goodwin head to head with opposition midfielders, we have Reilly, Stiffy and possibly Schuback who can do run-with roles as a learning excercise, Doughty and Massie are options, whilst Mattner, as DT mentioned, has improved to the point where he could be given another go at it if required.
Massie should be kept, he was in great form last year and early this year before a couple of bad games which Ayres decided to specifically highlight. When in-form he is a solid player who is one of the few players on our list (apart from Roo) who gives us some grunt.
Schuback is a must keep. Similarly to Perrie, we wouldn't get anything of note for him, and he is still young. When fit he can be excellent for us, just look at his game against Hawthorn this year. He was great as a crumbing forward who gives good defensive pressure in the forward line. We lack a crumber so he can be that player - pretty obvious, IMO.
As for Biglands playing in the forward line; when we have Welsh (and also Jericho) as leading forwards from the square, who have excellent pace and can be very damaging (mainly Welsh) if they are given space to lead into, why would we block up that space with a dopey ruckman? Ayres continually blocked up our forward line during his time, and we scratched our heads as to why we weren't kicking winning scores despite the fact we knew Carey couldn't mark over his head. So why we persisted with bombing it long to a crowded forward line has me fingered.
I know I've rambled a bit here, but I get a bit sick and tired of people saying, "trade Perrie, he's ********" and "get rid of Schuback, he's done nothing" etc, when they aren't looking at the realities of our side.
Stiffy_18 said:
Cheers mate....But really, do you think Stevens is AFL material??? I suppose I am just frustrated as I think the Crows are crying out for aggressive players and what do Reidy and Co give us, Daniel Schell mark 2.
McLeod23 said:
I too have been impressed with Schuie given the limited opportunities he has received. Too be honest with you, before Rutten and Reilly were given a go, I would have had them in my delist at the end of the year column and how wrong would I have been. It's good to see that these young guys, who were wasting away in the SANFL during the Ayres reign, are now given a chance and are showing they have great potential. Good riddance Ayres........
Good post.McLeod23 said:
But I do think we would get something of note for perrie, (geelong need a CHF target very badly, Graham will retire and they have too many crumbers to go wthout someone who can ground the ball)
The issue is how do we replace him?
2006 Watts will be ok but in the intrim?
Schuback is a must keep IMO, does anyone remember Liptacks first few years or Edwards? sometimes it just takes time. Kruger as well needs time
My thoughts.
1. I don't see us tading/delisting as many as 10 players in addition to the retirees:
a. It would gut the list beyond what is really necessary. Our list has some obvious shortcomings, but it's not as crap as some would say (or, say, a la Carlton of 2 years back) and you can't fix all the problems in one year.
b. Every delisting requires a draft pick to replace them. Given we have three picks already (courtesy of retirements), a straight delisting only gets us a fourth or fifth round pick. Of course, that equation changes if you trade for picks. I can see us picking up a few 2nd/3rd round picks with trades, possibly even a first round pick in the 8-16 range.
2. My "untouchable" list is similar to that previously stated - Ricciuto, Edwards, Rutten, McGregor, Reilly, Hentschel, Welsh. Various reasons, but in general (and especially for the KPPs) there's no prospect of getting anything better than an even result on any of them. Maybe a couple of others - eg I wouldn't call Perrie untouchable but I'd want a bloody good deal for him.
3. When it comes to trading (or delisting) I think you need to group the players. For example - Doughty, Gallagher, Ladhams, Bode, Shirley, Mattner, Skipworth (maybe one or two others) might form a group of which you could say "we don't need all of them, in fact we've probably got too many of them, but which ones go in a trade depends on what we get offered."
Maybe that's not particularly insightful, but it's all I've got for now
The one point I'm hottest on I suppose is the first - going berserk and turning over that much of the list, especially with a shallow draft pool, is overkill or overreaction.
1. I don't see us tading/delisting as many as 10 players in addition to the retirees:
a. It would gut the list beyond what is really necessary. Our list has some obvious shortcomings, but it's not as crap as some would say (or, say, a la Carlton of 2 years back) and you can't fix all the problems in one year.
b. Every delisting requires a draft pick to replace them. Given we have three picks already (courtesy of retirements), a straight delisting only gets us a fourth or fifth round pick. Of course, that equation changes if you trade for picks. I can see us picking up a few 2nd/3rd round picks with trades, possibly even a first round pick in the 8-16 range.
2. My "untouchable" list is similar to that previously stated - Ricciuto, Edwards, Rutten, McGregor, Reilly, Hentschel, Welsh. Various reasons, but in general (and especially for the KPPs) there's no prospect of getting anything better than an even result on any of them. Maybe a couple of others - eg I wouldn't call Perrie untouchable but I'd want a bloody good deal for him.
3. When it comes to trading (or delisting) I think you need to group the players. For example - Doughty, Gallagher, Ladhams, Bode, Shirley, Mattner, Skipworth (maybe one or two others) might form a group of which you could say "we don't need all of them, in fact we've probably got too many of them, but which ones go in a trade depends on what we get offered."
Maybe that's not particularly insightful, but it's all I've got for now
The one point I'm hottest on I suppose is the first - going berserk and turning over that much of the list, especially with a shallow draft pool, is overkill or overreaction.
I actually think that Scott Stevens is not a bad player and if he could bulk up he would be pretty handy 3rd tall. He is a good grab and has a footy brain. I don't mind himSpringChoke said:
Didn't hear the Ottens interview last night but KG said this morning that he was keen to come home (which is in contradiction to views posted here before)
If thats the case then what do Richmond want? - Biglands and a pick? - Biglands and Burton? - how far do we go?
I know Craigy isnt keen to trade for established players - but surely our ruck division must be an exception
If thats the case then what do Richmond want? - Biglands and a pick? - Biglands and Burton? - how far do we go?
I know Craigy isnt keen to trade for established players - but surely our ruck division must be an exception
troy_sibbick
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Mad Dog said:
I heard the interview and Ottens quite clearly stated that he is quite happy in Melbourne but also said Never say never. But his first choice is to stay wt Richmond as his mum has moved over there with him.
one thing i can clear up is i heard from a fairly reliable source that Brett Burton will not be traded under any circumstances, Neil Craig rates him highly and wants to have a preseason to teach him how to make correct decisions under pressure ( if that can be taught)
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gundy
Team Captain
Grolm37 said:
If Craig can pull that off he will be in big demand to train horses for the dressage at Bejing 2008. At least a horse has a bigger brain than a bird
Grolm37 said:
So - as our midfield coach - since 2000, what has Craigy actually taught Birdman?
mymansyd said:
i think you'll find he taught birdman exactly what Gary wanted to be taught -
some people see birdman as having a lack of skills (which Gary may have) where Craig IMO) sees Birdman as have poor decision making skills which make his football skills look bad - does that make sense ?
mymansyd said:
Good point - how long do you need to play AFL football before you learn no to try and hook the ball over your shoulder when running flat out towards the boundary ? Same old story - you can put the athelete into a footballer - but you can't put the footballer into an athelete - on ya bike birdman
gundy
Team Captain
Grolm37 said:
Doesn't say much for Craig as a professional coach then
Ayres may have instructed Craig to concentrate on skills with the Birdman but surely a coach as astute as Craig supposedly is would have recognised that Birdman's major problem was decision making and would have taken the initiative and given him a bit of help in that area.
If what you suppose is true Craig either can't identify a players problem areas or he lacks initiative. Neither of those are attributes the AFC can afford to have in a senior coach.
Personally I subscribe to the view that Birdman is a great athelete but just doesn't have a high enough level of football smarts to be a stand out AFL player. Some things just can't be taught. The really great AFL players are instinctive.
gundy said:Doesn't say much for Craig as a professional coach then
This is stupid. If a player is no good it is the coaches fault?
Maybe, just maybe the player isn't up to it.
It's ridiculous to single out single things like this a base a coaches ability on that one thing.
Especially as Craig was only an assistant at the time.
Don't you think that is all a bit simplistic? Ladhams has sublime kicking skills. Should Craig get the credit for that? Of course not.
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